Bi wired?

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  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 17,200
    edited November 2002
    TroyD,
    If you never listened for a difference ,then why do you post about which you have no understanding........try before you speak......you always want someone to tell you.........eff it.....try yourself.Be your own person instead of someones elses shadow......
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
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  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 17,200
    edited November 2002
    r/w,
    what am I some kind of outcast in here......you regret to agree with me.......whatever.........

    sorry if I actually know what I'm talking about.....

    listen up all of you.......agree disagree with me I could care less........fools let the blind lead them I say....or should I say nieve.....maybe people who want to wear other peoples pants instead of there own............
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
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  • phuz
    phuz Posts: 2,372
    edited November 2002
    "fools let the blind lead them..."

    "Think for yourself. Question authority."

    Good stuff.

    Dan, I think that's usually what goes on here. You usually end up the target because of the way you present your opinions and experiences. No offense intended... just an observation.
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  • TroyD
    TroyD Posts: 13,077
    edited November 2002
    Dan,

    What I'm saying is this, I'm pretty if it the difference were that pronounced I'm fairly certain that I would have heard it (and I've owned separate amps a hell of a lot longer than you have). Meaning I don't hear it so with my amps I'm saying that the whole warmup thing is a NON-issue. I'm also going to go out on a limb and say that with any solid state amp the difference is not going to be a night and day difference.


    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
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  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 17,200
    edited November 2002
    Troy,
    I don't care what you hear at all......nor what you say about this topic....like everything you post...you can't hear anything.......wire different power rating's.......now warm or cold amps.......dude do you listen to your rig????

    phuz,
    those comments are not intended for anyone but Troy.....
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
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  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 17,200
    edited November 2002
    Here's what I got to say about this whole warm up a non tube....solid state amp thing......

    MY AMP sounds better TO ME after a couple of minutes after I turn it on.......old age?needs to fill the caps???I didn't build the thing nor do I have a complete in depth understanding of how and why amps do what they do........I played guitar since I was 9.I owned both tube amps and solid state......they both sounded there best after they where warmed up......the tube amp made the biggest difference in sound quality.........

    My post might have been alittle extreme with the sounds like **** and then fantastic.........I was waiting to be blown away when I installed the Rotel gear,and I believe I was let down at first.Then after some time playing around with it.......I noticed it sounding like the way I remember the Rotel rsx1065 responding.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
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  • HBombToo
    HBombToo Posts: 5,256
    edited November 2002
    All I was leaning toward was the fact that any component from a resistor through a capacitor has a spec rated over a min and max temp. The temperatures typically range from sub zero/freezing to 100's of degrees F and our equipment is always in a very stable, room temp, environment nowhere close to the extremes.

    How can there be that much of a diference is confusing to me.

    Thats all... and no disrespect intended.

    HBomb
    ***WAREMTAE***
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  • TroyD
    TroyD Posts: 13,077
    edited November 2002
    Oh, but I thought you were into bench testing and all so I figure sure you would have all the answers.

    I never said there wasn't a difference in wire Dan, but at my price range, yes, they are all pretty close, I'd say.

    In my experience, there isn't a perceptible difference in warm or cold operation, nor given my understanding (be it minimal) of how a SS amp works, should there be.

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
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  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 17,200
    edited November 2002
    I'm in no way shape or form going to even try to convince you otherwise.

    My only ......ever point in all my posts in here is 2 give things a try yourself.If you hear it or not.........thats my only point......wire.........equal power......heat......or any other subject at hand.

    I believe after reading some of the posts made my a number of you,It comes to my attention that my opnion is based off of fact.It's not ......it's just my findings in this fun and exciting hobbie of ours.

    It's completly cool with me if any one of you do not agree with me.Your rig's and mine are different,in different enviroments,etc.

    Dan
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
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  • rlw
    rlw Posts: 231
    edited November 2002
    My take on biwiring.

    Any circuit can be characterized by it's LCR: inductance, capacitance, and resistance.

    If you have a pair of bi-wireable speakers, and you don't bi-wire them, you have a strap attaching the upper post to the lower post.

    Your single wire, plus the strap, will have a certain LCR characteristic.

    If you then biwire the speakers, you have removed the strap, and you have a different set of LCR characteristics. Every time you change LCR characteristics in a circuit, you introduce some phase shift - unless you specifically design your circuit to not phase shift [e.g., you can specifically design a crossover circuit to not introduce phase shift]. Phase shift certainly can change the perceived sound of a signal.

    Whether the new LCR characteristics will sound the same, better, or worse is something you have to rely upon your ears to determine.

    There is no way to separate the "highs" from the "lows" with biwiring: even if your receiver/amp has different binding posts, they share the same power rails and ground strap - in effect, your biwires will always be tied together at the amp end. If a pair of wires is tied together at the amp end, all current will flow through each wire, including all back EMF from the speakers.

    In my experience, it always sounds better to replace the stock binding strap with a good-quality wire jumper, and instead of biwiring, invest that money into a single set of upgraded speaker cables - go for one good set, instead of 2 so-so sets. If you can't afford the next "better" wire, save your coin.
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  • rlw
    rlw Posts: 231
    edited November 2002
    Originally posted by HBombToo
    mantis, I'm not being sarcastic in any way at all. It just seems counter intuitive to me for warmup time on solid state.

    Example, does a computer work faster after its been on for a while? I don't think so but would be the same analogy... would it not? you guys have a hell of a lot more experience than me and I'm just trying to figure this whole thing out.


    I don't think that the speed of the computer is a good analogy. If what we're talking about are the bias currents of output transistors, I don't think that applies at all in the computer case.

    The amps I have have many output transistors, each doing it's part in power the speaker. I can see if bias current is slightly different, there's going to be some kind of impact.

    In fact, a lot of proponents of low-powered (a couple of watts) tube amps claim that it's the multiple output devices that make SS amps sound worse than tubes: the many transistors will never sound as coherent as a single tube, and you'll experience phase-shift, time-smearing, and a slew of subtle effects that tube amps avoid.

    Like I said, in my experience, the difference is audible, but not "hell" and "heaven". My system sounds good even without warmup, but better with the warmup.
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  • rlw
    rlw Posts: 231
    edited November 2002
    Originally posted by mantis
    r/w,
    what am I some kind of outcast in here......you regret to agree with me.......whatever.........

    sorry if I actually know what I'm talking about.....

    listen up all of you.......agree disagree with me I could care less........fools let the blind lead them I say....or should I say nieve.....maybe people who want to wear other peoples pants instead of there own............

    Mostly jesting, don't worry.

    However, *I* do find your typical claims to be pretty wild. Combined with what *I perceive* as a pretty condescending attitude [the whole "I'm an installer, I'm god, listen to me" schtick], it makes the majority of your posts difficult to swallow.

    Perhaps if you changed your style a little bit, and fixed the sticking "." key, I'd find it easier to understand what profound bits of wisdom you're trying to convey. Take that for what it's worth - other people might feel differently, other people might feel the same.

    .02, and no offense intended.
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  • kanicker
    kanicker Posts: 86
    edited November 2002
    Shot in the dark, but don't the environmental characteristics of a room alter the acoustics?

    For example, wouldn't a large amplifier affect the humidity and temp. in a room? I belive that would have an effect on what you hear to some degree...
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