Gordon Holt telling it like it is.

DarqueKnight

LuSh wrote: »

Most people cannot afford Ferrari, Trump real estate or Armani."

...And most of those than can afford those premium brands, chose not to indulge in them.

LuSh wrote: »

The difference here is that if you asked a typical American or Canadian would you like to own a Ferrari car, a Trump built condo or an Armani suit the inevitable answer would be 'yes'.

Really? The USA and Canada have many thousands of wealthy individuals who can well afford Ferrari, Trump real estate, and Armani. I am not aware of hoards of these well-heeled individuals beating a path to these prestige brands. If you have some data to the contrary, please point me to it. I recall very vividly when I moved to the Los Angeles area and took a tour through Beverly Hills. I was surprised to see a lot of "regular" cars parked in front of some really magnificent homes. I thought maybe, those were the cars of the "help". I was told that "most of these people don't care about flaunting their wealth...they may spend a lot of money on their homes and educating their kids, but that's it".

A lot of "typical" people are only attracted to premium brands because of exclusivity, inaccessibility, and prestige rather than because of superior quality and workmanship. They actually have no real interest in owning the "exclusive" item, they want the glamor and prestige that comes with it. "Dreaming" is a popular pastime.

LuSh wrote: »

If I asked my friends or family would you like to own a Mark Levinson, Jeff Rowland or Linn the inevitable answer would be "huh" followed by "are they as good as Bose" once I had explained the profile of each company; which would then finally be followed by this final statement. "I'd take it but sell it and buy a Sony or Pioneer flat panel and hang it on the wall".

If you asked a "typical" person if they would like to own a Bugatti Veyron, the inevitable answer would be "huh" followed by "are they as good as Ferrari" once I explained the profile of the company and the cost of the car. They would probably take the Bugatti and then sell it to buy the more well known Ferrari.

I agree that high end audio does not have the same name recognition and glamor as Ferrari, Trump, and Armani, but high end audio also does not have the same advertising expenditures.

If you asked me if I would like to own a Ferrari, sure, I'd take it, then turn around and sell it and buy something less maintenance intensive. I don't know of any of my family, friends, and business associates who would like to own a Ferrari, and I have some who can well afford it.

Yashu

I am a snob and even *I* wouldn't actually buy a Bugatti Veyron to drive... hehe... that car is not exactly something you can just drive around with and live with.

I want a stereo that can handle whatever I throw at it, not just smooth paved, straight roads, near gas stations that happen to have a jet fuel pump.

Seriously...

I do agree that audiophiles need to catch up with what studios have been doing for years now, which is active room correction. Most good studio setups have some kind of active correction, sometimes at the simple push of a button, and instantly, you have monitors that give you a flat response at your listening position. I want to see tone controls come back, not just bass and treble, or the dreaded single knob solution... but real ones, with corner adjustments, effective freq. range adjustment, the whole shebang... I want modern audiophile gear that doesn't treat me like an idiot. Someone in another thread mentioned the old Yamaha CR-1000, you could even switch it between class A, class B, and AB... that is what I am talking about. It is sad that I have to buy used to get the best gear.

You SDA guys, you know what I am talking about here... Every step forward the industry takes, it seems to take two steps back.

LuSh

I disagree Darque; I think most males would know Bugatti; my point was people would be more likely inclined to have a nice car, condo or suit then an audio system. If Audio isn't dead then I don't why all the dealers in my area have switched to Home Theater install. Audio might be alive in the used sections of websites but I honestly don't see how it's thriving in the real world.

There have been no redefining concepts built upon two channel reproduction. It's laughable when compared to other high tech industry's. Like I said, how passive speakers are still the 'norm' with non digital controlled cross-overs is beyond me; that is easily the first thing that should have been corrected long ago. The fact that most speakers don't have built in DSP is kinda sad as well. I just don't see much innovation in audio...

Face

And my friends wonder why most of my equipment is vintage.

markmarc

I've read the piece a couple of times now. First, John Atkinson needs to be commended for publishing an interview that at times slams his effort and work.

I think Mr. Holt makes some interesting points, but at the same time I think he's locked into his own mindset and doesn't want to see the positives. First, he fails to recognize that the overall sound quality of serious manufacturers at all price ranges has improved. The noise floor alone is noticeably better now. Secondly, the quality level of monitors alone even at economy level beats 20 years ago.

Most importantly, it's not the big manufacturers that are driving the industry forward, it's the little guys. They're the ones pushing the technological envelope, trying new designs. Mr. Holt doesn't seem to be looking there from what the interview says. Instead, he placed his hopes on SACD, for better or worse, it didn't work out.

Maybe we should keep in perspective how far forward music reproduction came while Mr. Holt was in his hearing prime: stereo sound, solid state, composite materials, digital recording. Since his retirement big advancements haven't happened, but small incremental ones have, and at a consistent basis. The splashes may not have been big, but the cumulative effect has improved the industry.

Unfortunately, the scourges of dynamic compression and lossy compression has taken away many people from finding joy in beautifully recorded music of all types. This has affected how many look at music. Yet, we all know that fine recordings are still being made.

Just my two cents.

Yashu

Yeah, I agree that the corporate recording industry only has itself to blame for their problems selling records.

To the people that have ALWAYS traditionally carried new formats, new technologies, us, they are thumbing their noses... creating mass produced, compressed dreck, and doing everything they can to try and make it harder for us to use our music in the way we want.

I am very active in the file sharing community, and this is what I see as progress:
1. DRM is dying... we have done enough to show the industry that DRM only hurts their bottom line.
2. Independent labels, they do not sue everyone's children and grandmothers into oblivion for spreading their artist's work, thus increasing sales.
3. I have seen a trend in the p2p world, and that is, as average internet speed increases, the acceptable file size has increased along with it. MP3 is nowhere near perfect, however it is not hard to find what you are looking for in the highest bitrate that MP3 supports, 320k, whereas just a few years ago, 128k was the standard. 320k brings us much closer to the real thing than 128k, in fact it is a night and day difference.
4. This is an addendum to 3, lossless FLAC is now showing up everywhere, on p2p networks and underground bittorrent tracker communities. We share and share alike... and it is not hard to request a FLAC rip of an album from someone that owns that album, and when someone else submits a request for the same thing on an album that I own, I am happy to return the favor. Eventually, FLAC will be the new mp3, and as internet speeds increase, the possibility of high resolution file trading becomes very possible.

The future of music is not on disc or platter... the computer industry, the indie community, and artists that prefer a more direct connection to their fans than mega corporate labels, this is the future.

I think there will always be a market for high end audio, and with the technology behind the reproduction of recorded music nearing it's peak, the logical next step is improving the recordings themselves and the distribution models that bring them to us.

So, no, maybe traditional hifi hasn't changed much since Holt's retirement, but the recording industry sure has, for the worse, but also for the better... and a light can be seen through the tunnel... finally, and any audiophile will tell you that the recording is just as important as the equipment that plays it.

A good solid system is going to sound great given a well recorded album, and I am already seeing the tides of change in the way the recordings reach us. You may think mp3 is a scourge now, but a few years from how, in hindsight, it will be seen as the beginning of the new generation of hifi. Remember, it is our love for music that drives us in this hobby, and the freedom of mp3 has given a new generation a thirst for music that has not been seen for a long time. Seeds must be planted before trees grow.

The big negative in all of this is the reduced quality in our components... but consider that this trend has been parallel with the decline in the quality of popular music. The backlash the music industry has had to face for this fact, and the number of artists that have bucked the trend recently only shows that things are beginning to change, and better music just may breed the desire for better equipment to play it on. Recorded sound has only been around a short time in human history... who is to say that this isn't cyclical?

WilliamM2

I am very active in the file sharing community, and this is what I see as progress:
1. DRM is dying... we have done enough to show the industry that DRM only hurts their bottom line.
2. Independent labels, they do not sue everyone's children and grandmothers into oblivion for spreading their artist's work, thus increasing sales.
3. I have seen a trend in the p2p world, and that is, as average internet speed increases, the acceptable file size has increased along with it. MP3 is nowhere near perfect, however it is not hard to find what you are looking for in the highest bitrate that MP3 supports, 320k, whereas just a few years ago, 128k was the standard. 320k brings us much closer to the real thing than 128k, in fact it is a night and day difference.
4. This is an addendum to 3, lossless FLAC is now showing up everywhere, on p2p networks and underground bittorrent tracker communities. We share and share alike... and it is not hard to request a FLAC rip of an album from someone that owns that album, and when someone else submits a request for the same thing on an album that I own, I am happy to return the favor. Eventually, FLAC will be the new mp3, and as internet speeds increase, the possibility of high resolution file trading becomes very possible.

So the future of high end is stealing music, instead of purchasing it?

File sharing is one of the main reasons we will no longer be able to get high definition music formats. When the record labels quit making CD's, what will you rip the music from?

The worst part is that you try to make it sound like a noble effort.:rolleyes:

VR3

I gave up on downloading music about 3 years ago and havnt looked back since...

Definite upgrade in quality of the music I listen to since I have gone this route...

treitz3

LuSh wrote: »

What ever happened to a good sounding speaker that wasn't a niche driven musical preference.

To me, good question. It deserves it's own thread.

treitz3

Yashu wrote: »

Eventually, FLAC will be the new mp3, and as internet speeds increase, the possibility of high resolution file trading becomes very possible.

I doubt it.

TroyD

We can agree to disagree...no biggie.

As far as digital goes, I think the argument holds even LESS water. Across the board, digital sources are better than they were 15 years ago. If any strides have been made, that's where I'd point to. Your DAC may well be the exception....most digital gear of that vintage is worthless. As a whole, I think source components are where the most improvements have come.

As far as speakers go, vintage more than holds it's own...I will grant you but if you've got the coin, there is better available today. If you go back to the 60's...the high end standards were speakers such as the AR-3a. Now, I will be the first to tell you that I love all things AR....but, there IS better out there. Hell, Ken Kantor did a a modern AR-3a and AR-2 and showed the improvements just by using newer parts and so forth. Another is the Dahlquist DQ-10. FANTASTIC speaker....but, hell, Dahlquist bettered that with the DQ-20. The fact is things are improved upon. Does that mean that vintage sucks? No. Are the 'improvements' always better? No. As I said, you can't change physics but you can refine the application.

Again, Holt is pissed because HIS standard isn't being pursued to his satisfaction. Nothing more. Nothing less.

As far as the rest of it...DSP and all that ****. Different strokes for left handed people. Then you open yourself up for more coloration and artificial manipulation of the sound. YMMV.

And for your last point.....Ask 100 people how many have heard of Macintosh, Dayton-Wright, Dahlquist. See how many blank stares you get. High end is and always has been a fringe element.

BDT

Face

You won't get a blank stare from McIntosh, just the wrong answer.

cfrizz

LOL, so true! Most will automatically think Apple, including me!:D

Face wrote: »

You won't get a blank stare from McIntosh, just the wrong answer.

hearingimpared

WilliamM2 wrote: »

So the future of high end is stealing music, instead of purchasing it?

File sharing is one of the main reasons we will no longer be able to get high definition music formats. When the record labels quit making CD's, what will you rip the music from?

The worst part is that you try to make it sound like a noble effort.:rolleyes:

I was thinking the same thing!

hearingimpared

TroyD wrote: »

As far as digital goes, I think the argument holds even LESS water. Across the board, digital sources are better than they were 15 years ago. If any strides have been made, that's where I'd point to. Your DAC may well be the exception....most digital gear of that vintage is worthless. As a whole, I think source components are where the most improvements have come.

I think both the digital and analog front ends have taken great leaps since the 80s. Digital has especially taken a huge leap. During the 80s & 90s it was unlistenable except on a low end piece of gear that hid its shortcomings. I have what was a very high end DAC for its time and it makes digital listenable. I've heard digital players in the past year that can rival the sound of a great analog front ends and kicks the daylights out of my DAC. . . that is real progress.

TroyD wrote: »

Again, Holt is pissed because HIS standard isn't being pursued to his satisfaction. Nothing more. Nothing less..

Yep he sounds like a bitter crumudgeon who made some rediculous statements. If you want to read a really good article from the same issue about a guy who has had and has his finger on the pulse of music reproduction via gear going on 40 years, read the article, "King of Tubes." Steve Harris has a very candid talk with Tim de Paravincini.

I used to love Holt back in the late 70s and 80s. I felt he really had something there. He has proven to be a bitter disappointment to me.

TroyD wrote: »

As far as the rest of it...DSP and all that ****. Different strokes for left handed people. Then you open yourself up for more coloration and artificial manipulation of the sound. YMMV.

First off why would I want a piece of gear to make the sound "right" in my room. I would rather do it according to my ear and my likes and dislikes concerning reproduced music and I certainly don't want to do it with tone controls and graphic EQs. I've been down that road and all that does is add more noise and distortion to music.

Also someone mentioned that I think a DSP can deliver a flat signal across the board to the listening postion. Have you heard speakers that were adjusted to deliver a flat response? It sounds like pure ****!

High end is high end. . . and it is not for the masses. Hell mid-fi isn't even for the masses, it may reach more people but the masses that are targeted to make real money do not look to the high end. Smaller, faster more portable like Holt says is the main market and it has always been that way; why is he behaving like it is something new. Eight track & cassette tapes were the order of the day. Then compact disc came along. It has been like this since the 70s. I don't know why Holt is making out to be any different now.

markmarc

WilliamM2:
The reason the independent labels don't go after file sharers is that they don't have the $$ to pay the lawyers. File sharing is theft, pure and simple.

I heard Sheryl Crow do a radio interview last week. She has accepted that cd sales are all but dead, and that performances will be their lone revenue stream. But that means that concert tickets are going to be going up in price at a good-sized amount.

WilliamM2

WilliamM2:
The reason the independent labels don't go after file sharers is that they don't have the $$ to pay the lawyers. File sharing is theft, pure and simple.

Glad you agree.

I heard Sheryl Crow do a radio interview last week. She has accepted that cd sales are all but dead, and that performances will be their lone revenue stream. But that means that concert tickets are going to be going up in price at a good-sized amount.

Concert sales have always been the main source of income for rock acts. Even though CD sales are dropping, they still sell more CD's each year than they ever sold with vinyl and tapes.

Yashu

Originally Posted by WilliamM2 View Post
So the future of high end is stealing music, instead of purchasing it?

File sharing is one of the main reasons we will no longer be able to get high definition music formats. When the record labels quit making CD's, what will you rip the music from?

The worst part is that you try to make it sound like a noble effort.
I was thinking the same thing!

You guys crack me up... In case you missed it, sharing music INCREASES SALES, and SELLING lossless format music on the internet is basically the future... why even go to the record store that only has crap for selection, or maybe a niche genre that isn't what you like, when you can buy any record you want and download the bit-for-bit copy online? Right now you can have any record you want shipped to your house, but that isn't exactly the most efficient system. No single record store in the world can match what you can buy online.

I am going to repeat this... sharing INCREASES SALES! Got it? I have about 500 cds... about 450 of them are artists that I only learned of through sharing. Everyone I know in the community has the exact same story. Not every country in the world lets corporations treat it's citizens like criminals... maybe in the US they bully you around and scare you into buying their "product" over something from an indie label, but in Canada, and countries where IP laws actually make some sense, unless you walk into the store and steal a physical object, it is not stealing. I also know that in the US, the law states this as well, which is why it is called "infringement". Even the shady lawyers there know that it is not stealing, as you put it. At least get your facts straight before you start spouting out the "legal advice".

Are you saying that when you invite your pals over to listen to your rig, they are stealing too right? You steal every time you walk by a gym, or shop in a mall, or eat at a trendy restaurant, or drink at a bar... you steal every time your girl made you a mixtape in college? hehe... or did you not have any friends because your mom never taught you to share

Seriously... grow up... there is more music out there than what is, or was, force fed to you on the radio. This thread is about paradigm shifts... well there it is, right in front of you... an entire industry of music that operates (legally, I might add) completely separate from the corporate mega-labels... and the amount of artists and music far and away eclipses the "product" of the old... in CD, vinyl, MP3, FLAC... and even tape. There is not a single format still used in the modern age that the big labels have a monopoly on. THAT right there is something that Mr. Holt would have never predicted, and it is something that could not have come at a better time.

Enjoy your pop, guys... (in otherwords...waaaaaaaaaaaaaa Reel, if you're out there, I get while you love reelin' them in... it's fun!)

Early B.

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote: »

I think speaker drivers have REALLY advanced in the last 20 years...

Don't believe me? lol

Take for instance a Seas Excel Midbass and then a midbass from like... 1980 or w/e...

Put them side by side

the midbass of today is lighter, the cone material is lighter, its faster, produces more bass, far clearer...

I would say from the standpoint of what a singular driver/tweeter and so forth can do -- has advanced quite a bit...

Agreed.

High fidelity audio has made tremendous advancements in the past 20 years and will continue to do so. Higher quality, lower prices. What other "advancements" can there be?

WilliamM2

I am going to repeat this... sharing INCREASES SALES! Got it?

No, I don't:
http://blog.wired.com/music/2007/11/cd-sales-down-2.html

Even the shady lawyers there know that it is not stealing, as you put it. At least get your facts straight before you start spouting out the "legal advice".

I didn't offer any legal advice, I pointed out that sharing will make CD's disappear. Read the article above, sharing is not increasing sales. Enjoy your mp3's.

LuSh

Early:

Compare 'Hi-Fi' advancements with video, computer or telecommunications advancements and then re-think your statement. Hi-Fi has wandered into different segments of opinion. The simple fact that tubes and vinyl are often cited as 'the best' is proof enough. I don't think mediums from 40 years ago would still be accepted in other industry's. There has been refinement; not advancement in Hi-Fi. DSP room correction and digital design would be two areas where advancement would be needed.

hearingimpared

Yashu wrote: »

You guys crack me up... In case you missed it, sharing music INCREASES SALES, and SELLING lossless format music on the internet is basically the future... why even go to the record store that only has crap for selection, or maybe a niche genre that isn't what you like, when you can buy any record you want and download the bit-for-bit copy online? Right now you can have any record you want shipped to your house, but that isn't exactly the most efficient system. No single record store in the world can match what you can buy online.

I am going to repeat this... sharing INCREASES SALES! Got it? I have about 500 cds... about 450 of them are artists that I only learned of through sharing. Everyone I know in the community has the exact same story. Not every country in the world lets corporations treat it's citizens like criminals... maybe in the US they bully you around and scare you into buying their "product" over something from an indie label, but in Canada, and countries where IP laws actually make some sense, unless you walk into the store and steal a physical object, it is not stealing. I also know that in the US, the law states this as well, which is why it is called "infringement". Even the shady lawyers there know that it is not stealing, as you put it. At least get your facts straight before you start spouting out the "legal advice".

Are you saying that when you invite your pals over to listen to your rig, they are stealing too right? You steal every time you walk by a gym, or shop in a mall, or eat at a trendy restaurant, or drink at a bar... you steal every time your girl made you a mixtape in college? hehe... or did you not have any friends because your mom never taught you to share

Seriously... grow up... there is more music out there than what is, or was, force fed to you on the radio. This thread is about paradigm shifts... well there it is, right in front of you... an entire industry of music that operates (legally, I might add) completely separate from the corporate mega-labels... and the amount of artists and music far and away eclipses the "product" of the old... in CD, vinyl, MP3, FLAC... and even tape. There is not a single format still used in the modern age that the big labels have a monopoly on. THAT right there is something that Mr. Holt would have never predicted, and it is something that could not have come at a better time.

Enjoy your pop, guys... (in otherwords...waaaaaaaaaaaaaa Reel, if you're out there, I get while you love reelin' them in... it's fun!)

A thief by any other name is . . .

jakelm

I dont think the analog world has changed one bit. It plattoed a long time ago. And it is what it is. The best TT 20 years ago is the same as the best TT today.

CD's are not analog, and should never be put in an analog catagory. Any media that needs a DAC is not analog.

True analog, starts from the recording and ends at your ears.

So if we are talking analog, then yes, I'm sad to say this but, its dead.

Digital, on the other hand (of a completely different body), will never die, it will just change from one media to another.

The time of red and white RCA jacks is coming to an end quickly...

tonyb

Yeah you can buy anything online....and play it on what...your Iphone?
Convenience over quality yashu,is that what your telling me? And how does shareing increase sales? You get a cd,you like it and tell your buds about it.They proceed to burn that cd instead of going to bestbuy and buying one.So tell me again,how does this increase sales?How is this not stealing?Inform me on how the artist gets paid twice when someone burns a cd.

tonyb

jakelm wrote: »

I dont think the analog world has changed one bit. It plattoed a long time ago. And it is what it is. The best TT 20 years ago is the same as the best TT today.

CD's are not analog, and should never be put in an analog catagory. Any media that needs a DAC is not analog.

True analog, starts from the recording and ends at your ears.

So if we are talking analog, then yes, I'm sad to say this but, its dead.

Digital, on the other hand (of a completely different body), will never die, it will just change from one media to another.

The time of red and white RCA jacks is coming to an end quickly...

Joe this one's for you pal.

jakelm

I just wanted "oops I did it again", I didnt want to have to buy the whole damn cd....:p:p

Yashu

Enjoy your mp3's.

I share lossless FLAC. Maybe you don't know what that is, but it is a bit-perfect 44.1khz file format. It is not MP3.

I was trying to say that MP3 has made many addicted to the convenience that is going to drive up sales of higher quality downloads... which it has.

It is very easy to listen to an mp3, decide you like the album, and then BUY it... thus discovering a band that you would have never been able to without the mp3. Just because mp3 sounds like crap doesn't mean it doesn't make an acceptable previewing format.

Right now, it is listen to the mp3, like the album, buy it, have a truck or a plane ship it all the way to your house. That method of distribution doesn't make sense. Sharing music is not going to kill the music business... you guys are crazy. There are more people releasing albums now than ever, and it's been fueled by the internet. Maybe you listen to pop music... and I'm sorry if your mega corporate record labels in your country are dying, but that isn't my problem. In my country, sharing music is legal. I have absolutely no problem finding new music, there are more artists now than ever, and they are able to reach a wider audience than ever. Album sales have gone through the roof overall. Your sue-happy mega corporations might just want to change their business model if they want to stay afloat, the USA is about capitalism, right? The artists that I listen to haven't had any problems... hehe. Then again, I don't listen to pop.

nms

Just to interject here...

Yashu, your tone of complacent self-satisfied smugness isn't winning you any converts. Your arguments may or may not be good, but presentation also matters.

Carry on gentlemen :-)

jakelm

nms wrote: »

Just to interject here...

Yashu, your tone of complacent self-satisfied smugness isn't winning you any converts. Your arguments may or may not be good, but presentation also matters.

Carry on gentlemen :-)

Did you see mine?

How I just threw a post in there, that had absolutly nothing to do with the current conversation about downloading music.... Pretty good huh?:D

tonyb

In case you haven't noticed,analog is back bigtime.Record stores are starting to pop up again by me.Maybe because....hmmm...it sounds better than an IPOD.Not barking on ya but it's a generation thing.Quality vs convenience.I can dig the attraction to haveing a thousand songs at your fingertips,but untill they get the quality issue down,can't get on board with it.Brittany needs the money right now,you should be buying all her stuff.:)