The "I use my ears to hear" Rant

PolkThug

The Secrets testing and benchmarking was the best thing to happen for DVD player consumers. It helped me find a DVD player that would do what I wanted, then I found a store that would let me do an in-home demo. End result, happy customer.

jakelm

shack wrote: »

I can honestly say that I have never bought a piece of audio gear because of specs. In general I will consider wpc, ohms/impedance and frequency response having more to do with compatibilty than performance. The design of gear has more relevance to me than specs. The one exception may have been the recording capabilities of RR and cassette recorders back in the day.

Liar Liar Pants on fire....lol:p

If it didnt spec out (compatible), you wouldnt have bought it...

jakelm

PolkThug wrote: »

The Secrets testing and benchmarking was the best thing to happen for DVD player consumers. It helped me find a DVD player that would do what I wanted, then I found a store that would let me do an in-home demo. End result, happy customer.

I cant seem to find it, if it exist. Did they bench test the HD players, like they did with the SD player. With the pretty coloerd graphs?

Was it sound and vision, that did it last?

Lowell_M

jakelm wrote: »

Liar Liar Pants on fire....lol:p

If it didnt spec out (compatible), you wouldnt have bought it...

Hmmm.. I replaced my 120wpc JVC receiver with my 75wpc H/K (40% decrease in power) and it was the most impactful change I have made to my system to date. Plus, the 75wpc H/K plays in the same price point as the Denon AVR-38XX which is rated somewhere around 130wpc. I would bet that you can power similar speakers with each.

jakelm

a_mattison wrote: »

Hmmm.. I replaced my 120wpc JVC receiver with my 75wpc H/K (40% decrease in power) and it was the most impactful change I have made to my system to date. Plus, the 75wpc H/K plays in the same price point as the Denon AVR-38XX which is rated somewhere around 130wpc. I would bet that you can power similar speakers with each.

Maybe your speakers dont need 120 watts?, maybe the HK has better specs in another catagory?, maybe if you would have researched on how JVC measures specs compared to HK? maybe if you would have looked at ALL the specs you would have bought the right one the first time around.:p:p

Early B.

a_mattison wrote: »

Hmmm.. I replaced my 120wpc JVC receiver with my 75wpc H/K (40% decrease in power) and it was the most impactful change I have made to my system to date. Plus, the 75wpc H/K plays in the same price point as the Denon AVR-38XX which is rated somewhere around 130wpc. I would bet that you can power similar speakers with each.

Refer to post #64. The Secrets website shows the lies the manufacturers tell about wattage. HK tells the truth.

SolidSqual

Man we all spend a lot of time writing when you could be listening.

heiney9

jakelm wrote: »

I think...and dont laugh, but serious.

In my book, reviews are part of the specs to me.

Its like this: A+B+C+D+E=F

A= specs
B= price
C= looks (well not so much, if AB and D are great)
D= reviews
E= sound (if I can demo before purchasing)

F= final purchase

WOW :eek:...we are so different. How it sounds is almost last? Well perhaps based on my process of *choosing* we might be similar because it is hard to demo stuff. But once it goes in the rig if it doesn't sound right, it's gone, specs, price, reviews be damned.

I don't find reviews to be specs. I am a research hound in that I try and gather as much info from as many places as possible to help narrow my choices. I find certain qualities of a certain design, or reviewer or perhaps a designers philosophy or approach. But it all takes time and dedication to really wade thru a lot of BS to make an informed decision and it is a learning process.

But it comes down to how it sounds and the synergy of the system as a whole. Based on countless readings and the reputation of Nelson Pass one of his amps will be next. I am a bit apprehensive because there is a chance that after all my research and to a small extent rationalizing there is a very real possibilty when I get the new amp I won't like the way it sounds. Not likely, but very possible.

H9

Lowell_M

:rolleyes::rolleyes:You guys know that none of this matters if you use crappy cables........Right????:D:eek::D:eek::D:eek:

Back to work!!! All of you!!!!!! Lunch is over in the central time zone!!

Early B.

a_mattison wrote: »

Back to work!!! All of you!!!!!!

Hey - I am working.

Trying to convince you guys that I'm right 100% of the time is a lot of hard work.;)

Lowell_M

Early B. wrote: »

Hey - I am working.

Trying to convince you guys that I'm right 100% of the time is a lot of hard work.;)

We refuse to give in to your rightness

jakelm

heiney9 wrote: »

WOW :eek:...we are so different. How it sounds is almost last? Well perhaps based on my process of *choosing* we might be similar because it is hard to demo stuff. But once it goes in the rig if it doesn't sound right, it's gone, specs, price, reviews be damned.

I don't find reviews to be specs. I am a research hound in that I try and gather as much info from as many places as possible to help narrow my choices. I find certain qualities of a certain design, or reviewer or perhaps a designers philosophy or approach. But it all takes time and dedication to really wade thru a lot of BS to make an informed decision and it is a learning process.

But it comes down to how it sounds and the synergy of the system as a whole. Based on countless readings and the reputation of Nelson Pass one of his amps will be next. I am a bit apprehensive because there is a chance that after all my research and to a small extent rationalizing there is a very real possibilty when I get the new amp I won't like the way it sounds. Not likely, but very possible.

H9

Well I messed up in the order of things.

First thing would be price. If it isnt in my price range, it doesnt matter how good it sounds, I cant buy it.

Second would be specs. Since most of my purchases are online and have no place to demo, specs are one of the only things I have to go on.

Reviews. Other than specs, people's opinion on the good and bad things, are what I have to go on.

Then since I cant demo, I just have to jump in feet first and purchase.

Once its home, I listen. If I dont like it, I either move it or send it back.

Poee7R

For me its alot easier than it seems to be for some. I look for reputation and price. The only spec i really pay attention to is compatibility. I have speakers that are 4ohm nominal, so i make sure what i buy can handle it and thats about it.

I realize that the stuff i buy isnt permanent, so i try to try everything i can. Eventually i find piece's that are more permanent than others and i try to cater to those based on recommendations.

To me most of this hobby has to do with the DIFFERENT sounds things produce and how they perform with eachother. Maybe its good, maybe bad. But thats part of the experience, the learning. It's fun for me to discover how things mate with eachother.

I learned along time ago in car audio competitions that specs can be manipulated. As an example you could purchase an amp that would put out 50 watts x 2 @ 4ohms on 12volts. But take that same amp, and give it 14.4volts, wire your load for .5ohm and now you have 2500watts x 1.

So to me specs arent all that important, and i disagree with anyone that says more power sounds better than less. If anyone wants a trial comeon over, i have an Adcom 555II and a 545 sitting here with 5-6 sets of different speakers we can try along with different pre's, sources, ic's and cables. Lets see what sounds better. Personally, i always go with the 545, regardless of specs it just sounds better.... to me.

But i concede, it is all subjective which has been said many many times. Thats usually the one and only thing everyone agree's on. So with that said, what to buy next?


Dave

SCompRacer

Didn’t Julian Hirsh advocate judging equipment on measured performance alone?

I’ve purchased gear without specs based on others subjective impressions of the sound. Tad 60 tube amps, for instance. These tube amps were tested for me by someone with a spectrum analyzer, and I was provided graphs containing power and distortion measurements. On paper, they looked plain awful in some respects, but they still sounded good to me as well as others who had or still have them.

The testing did show me what I already knew by listening. Operating the amps in pentode mode with feedback was best in my system. Compared to triode operation, pentode operation produced the lowest distortion and maximized the 2nd harmonic over the higher harmonics, and produced the best S/N. And they delivered far more power in that mode. But a pair of high powered SS amp provided far more detail at mid to higher SPL, so I have SS amps now.

The specification people can argue I would have never purchased the tube amps if I had seen the specs for them. But in the end, I relied on my ears to tell me what to keep.

PolkThug

SCompRacer wrote: »

I relied on my ears to tell me what to keep.

Perfect for the Early B rant list!

So, you kept what you liked? That's crazy! :D

dkg999

If it looks interesting, buy it or try it.

If it sounds good, keep it (or buy it if you borrowed it).

If neither of the above, don't buy it or don't keep it.

Life's too short to read spec's instead of listening to music. I've never yet had a list of equipment specifications move my soul

reeltrouble1

Early B. wrote: »

Most of us on this board are guilty of posting statements like, "In the end, all that matters is how it sounds." Or how about this one -- "It's not about the gear, it's about enjoying the music." These statements crop up everywhere.

How often should we state the obvious?

Buying audio gear based on how it sounds is like saying, "I'm gonna keep doing this breathing thing until I'm dead." Since music is based on sound, how else are you gonna evaluate it unless you hear it?

So these "I'm all ears" and "we hear differently" statements are dead horse beaters. Surely we can come up with something more meaningful to say.

OK, RANT OVER...

Yea maybe we should have a test or something........:D

RT1

carpenter

PolkThug wrote: »

The answer to your question seemed so obvious I thought the question was rhetorical.

Answer: We don't know, we weren't there when they tested them.

We can only hope that there is some integrity in their testing.

Unfortunately, often it's false hope, here's a link to TNT's article about audio lies. I can't put it any better.

IMHO, a good way of thinking about a stereo system is as a simple Energy transformation system. Digital input is converted to Electrical energy, and the Electrical energy is then transformed to Sound energy.
Now, I have to ask myself, in a different case, not audio, say if I needed to setup a Radiant energy system, what would be the first thing I'd look at when evaluating equipment? the obvious answer is the specs.
The problem is that I'm quite certain that a lot of manufactures out there are full of crap when it comes to the fantasies they have about their specs.

jakelm

I have yet to find an audio manufacture actually lie about thier specs. Its ussually people not reading the whole spec. Like just reading 100wpc, but not reading @ 1khz. Alot of ways to measure, but lieing?

PolkThug

jakelm wrote: »

I have yet to find an audio manufacture actually lie about thier specs. Its ussually people not reading the whole spec. Like just reading 100wpc, but not reading @ 1khz. Alot of ways to measure, but lieing?

The stickers on Sony AVR's are horrible (or at least they used to be).

carpenter

.... From the link I posted.

I've spoken to several people, including two speaker manufacturers (one a world leader), who have confirmed that it is "industry standard" to exaggerate efficiency by 3 Dbl. They do it "because everyone does it". In fact they have to do it for the same reason. The 'cheat' that some use to justify it, is to measure the speaker in a very small, reverberent room so that all reflections are summed with the speaker's direct output - clever eh? That means that those shiny new speakers you've just bought produce half the sound pressure levels you paid for. Or to put it another way - turn your 50-Watt amp into a 25 Watter.

I am sure that top dog legal professionals, make sure that the statuary definition of "not lieing" is satisfied. but in my book it quacks and walks like a duck.

dkg999

To quote Shark on TV, "I don't want you to lie, I just want you to adjust the truth"

jakelm

Thats why audiophiles like us, deal with manufacturs we trust. We are not the normal consumer. I do feel sorry for the average consumer. I try to help as often as I could.

Now back to Tubular Bells.... My analyzer tells me it sounds great.

heiney9

jakelm wrote: »

I have yet to find an audio manufacture actually lie about thier specs. Its ussually people not reading the whole spec. Like just reading 100wpc, but not reading @ 1khz. Alot of ways to measure, but lieing?

ROTFLMAO:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D.

I just about spit my Coke all over my work keyboard. And politicians don't lie either. Good one Jake, I hope you really don't believe that. If you do you are pretty gullable.

H9

jakelm

heiney9 wrote: »

ROTFLMAO:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D.

I just about spit my Coke all over my work keyboard. And politicians don't lie either. Good one Jake, I hope you really don't believe that. If you do you are pretty gullable.

H9

I just wanted to get my big spoon out.....pot needed some stirring.

cfrizz

:eek::eek::eek: Well as far as I'm concerned that just solidified my thinking of more watts the better! Since the companies all lie like a rug, whatever they say the wpc are you know you are probably only getting half of it if even that.

I will qualify this and say for SS gear, I will take more watts rather than less. Tube amps are a different animal altogether & sound very different. Some like the sound, & the glowing lights. I don't care for either the sound or the lights.

To me all it does is make everything very nice & even or in my opinion kills the dynamics of whatever kind of music might be playing.

I thought a lot about what Mark said with his impressions of the live music & wanting to reach for the volume button with the SS gear when the applause started. Well anyone who has been to a concert will tell you that it is LOUD. As it should be, so wanting to dampen that live you are there feeling just doesn't make sense to me.

I just want to know that my speakers are operating to their full potential, & I have had enough gear now to know that until I got more power they weren't.

carpenter wrote: »

.... From the link I posted.


I am sure that top dog legal professionals, make sure that the statuary definition of "not lieing" is satisfied. but in my book it quacks and walks like a duck.

snow

Early B. wrote: »

This statement is another example of what I call a "Duh!! statement."

I'm not picking on Snow, but it's kinda like we automatically throw out these obvious statements, partly because we really don't have very much to say.
Since music is based so heavily on personal preferences, then most of the meaningful statements made about music are personal ones, and nobody really gives a rat's **** about someone else's personal tastes.:eek:

I'll be honest -- I just hang around this forum 'cause you guys have a babe thread.:p

Because each and every one of us have different levels of hearing and how our brains interpet what is pleasurable is different for each of us.

Actually in my mind at least its not so obvious because so many people are stuck on specs and will purchase something simply on the numbers alone. its a good place to begin but will not tell you if your going to like how it sounds.

Other peoples oppinions reviews etc play as a big a role in me choosing a piece of gear as anything else, if 9 out of 10 reviews say it has a warm sound tubelike on an amp then im pretty certain this what I also am going to hear, now whether I will like the warm tubelike sound in my system is another matter.

For example on the specs versus sound thing I bought a little marantz- 2230 reciever a while back even though it only had 30 wpc and was very old I liked it much better than a adcom gfa-2 100 wpc amp I had, the sound was rich warm pleasant to listen to, the adcom was thin and grainy compared to it.

Even though im certain the specs were better on the adcom the marantz was hands down the winner.

REGARDS SNOW

snow

jakelm wrote: »

Then everything you al have said goes against 99% of everything said here at CP.

Too many times have I heard "with those speakers, I wouldnt go with anything less than 200wpc"

I know about wattage and how little true wattage it takes to drive speakers. But why do I hear the previous comment made so many times?????......

A x V = W

This doesnt matter?

H9, I think I heard that statement from you a couple of times too...:p

I think for Cathy and certainly myself, why we say 200wpc is a good place to start is this, for the most part you are only using very few watts while listening to music but even though you may only see 2 watts - 5 watts etc on the meters on an amp and it sounds plenty loud there are transients that occur so fast you will never see the needles move and those may take up the biggest part of 200 watts or more believe it or not. This is one of the reasons why 200 wpc is quoted by myself and others as being where you usally have enough power to drive your speakers comfortably without clipping the amp and it sounds so much better than a smaller rated amp or reciever at low volumes.


REGARDS SNOW

Systems

heiney9 wrote: »

I also might add that there are no consistent processes (standards) for measuring equipment. Now, perhaps if a standard methodology were come up with we could compare across the board

There does exist standards for measure for of audio components for things like THD,IMD, signal to noise etc.It is up the manufacturer to test inaccordance with these standards and most of the reputable companies will try and do so.Published specs not based on the set standards are worthless.Speakers are a different kettle of fish as each company has their own methods so results are not directly comparable to anothers.

then just because it measures well, doesn't always mean it sounds good and we haven't even touched on the subject of synergy within the entire system.

True one must use their ears.But a good set of measurements will at least show that the designer was compentent.

jakelm

GV#27 wrote: »

True one must use their ears.But a good set of measurements will at least show that the designer was compentent.

And will give a good idea what to expect out of the peice of electronic.