The "I use my ears to hear" Rant

Early B.

Most of us on this board are guilty of posting statements like, "In the end, all that matters is how it sounds." Or how about this one -- "It's not about the gear, it's about enjoying the music." These statements crop up everywhere.

How often should we state the obvious?

Buying audio gear based on how it sounds is like saying, "I'm gonna keep doing this breathing thing until I'm dead." Since music is based on sound, how else are you gonna evaluate it unless you hear it?

So these "I'm all ears" and "we hear differently" statements are dead horse beaters. Surely we can come up with something more meaningful to say.

OK, RANT OVER...

heiney9

Here's my meaningful statement..................It's all subjective. Good luck on your quest to try and come up with definitive measurements to try and determine what sounds good and what doesn't.

If my ears don't like it, I don't car what the measurements say and what they are supposed to mean, I won't listen to it.

H9

shack

heiney9 wrote: »

Here's my meaningful statement..................It's all subjective. Good luck on your quest to try and come up with difinitive measurements to try and determine what sounds good and what doesn't.

If my ears don't like it, I don't car what the measurements say and what they are supposed to mean, I won't listen to it.

H9

H9 "gets it". He gets a cookie from me!

edbert

I hear ya.

heiney9

I also might add that there are no consistent processes (standards) for measuring equipment. Now, perhaps if a standard methodology were come up with we could compare across the board, but who is going to enforce such standard measuring practices? Consumer Reports or a similar body that has no vested interest in the products. What would this independent testing body gain?

Even then just because it measures well, doesn't always mean it sounds good and we haven't even touched on the subject of synergy within the entire system.

H9

Early B.

heiney9 wrote: »

I also might add that there are no consistent processes (standards) for measuring equipment. Now, perhaps if a standard methodology were come up with we could compare across the board, but who is going to enforce such standard measuring practices? Consumer Reports or a similar body that has no vested interest in the products. What would this independent testing body gain?

Even then just because it measures well, doesn't always mean it sounds good and we haven't even touched on the subject of synergy within the entire system.

H9

And how is all of this relevant to the thread topic of useless statements?

Oops...read your post again....you answered my question...:p

PolkThug

heiney9 wrote: »

If my ears don't like it, I don't car what the measurements say and what they are supposed to mean, I won't listen to it.

H9

lol you just made his point about stating the obvious!

Nobody disagrees with you.

steveinaz

You would think that people would get the obvious--yet many still chase their tails, concerned about specifications...sometimes the obvious isn't so obvious.

heiney9

What is more meaningful than letting your ears decide if you like the way it sounds or not. Only a fool would choose specs/measurements over what he/she hears regardless of whether it sounds good to him/her or not. We all seem to agree a room treated to be perfectly flat doesn't sound too good to most people.

So what's the goal, to be perfectly flat or 2 reproduce sound exactly as it is heard in real life (which is pretty much impossible) or a combination of the 2 or are we looking for something a little more dynamic by enhancing some sounds to make it more prevelent and enjoyable.

Specs are like statistics they can be manipulated to achieve a desired outcome. To be fair not all manufacturer's engage in this practice, but it's getting harder and harder to weed out the good from the bad. Some designers and manufacturer's feel certain specs are more important than others and base their desings on those specs. Is it right, wrong, pleasing, unpleasing...........only our subjective interpretation of what our ears hear and brain processes can decide and then we can only decide for ourselves.

Then you have certain designers and manufacturer's that have "their own sound" and they are going to design and manufacture products that reflect their philosophy right or wrong or partially right, etc.

Their is and never will be an audio panacea where someone is going to get it perfectly correct. I'm not sure any of us knows what "perfectly correct" even is.

H9

Early B.

steveinaz wrote: »

You would think that people would get the obvious--yet many still chase their tails, concerned about specifications...sometimes the obvious isn't so obvious.

Good point.

It's another example of a useless statement and it goes something like -- "We hear music, not specs."

Early B.

heiney9 wrote: »

What is more meaningful than letting your ears decide if you like the way it sounds or not.

It's meaningless because even a child knows that. Tell us something we don't know already.

heiney9

Early B. wrote: »

Good point.

It's another example of a useless statement and it goes something like -- "We hear music, not specs."

What are you looking for Brad? How else do we evaluate sound besides with our ears. Come on good disucssion going on here but throw us a bone. What are you getting at? Are our ears and brain processes incorrect, invalid, flawed?

heiney9

Maybe your question should be

Why does something sound good to us?

How do we get things to sound good to us?

Maybe the questions are wrong, not the answer.

H9

edbert

You need to watch the speakers. Put in earplugs, followed by over the ear protection and then crank it. If you can see the tweeters move, you must be doing something right.

snow

Specs can only give you an idea of what something may actually sound like, and certainly not whether you will like it or not. Because each and every one of us have different levels of hearing and how our brains interpet what is pleasurable is different for each of us. Im sure most of us have gotten drunk and played with the settings on the sub preamp etc because it sounded great at the time then we woke up the next day and it sounded like crap.

Its kind of like our taste in women some prefer brunettes some blondes or redheads big little short or tall. There is no such thing as the perfect one for all of us because we all see and hear differently.

if you normally prefer tall 30 year old blondes with a full figure. even though her measurments may be blond 5-7 36-24-34 30 years old that doesnt mean you are going to like what you see, hear because her personality may suck for you, its one of those things that you yourself have to look listen to and decide if its right for you.


REGARDS SNOW

Early B.

heiney9 wrote: »

What are you looking for Brad? How else do we evaluate sound besides with our ears. Come on good disucssion going on here but throw us a bone. What are you getting at? Are our ears and brain processes incorrect, invalid, flawed?

I'm just ranting...nothing more.

I'm looking for us to stop making so many obvious statements like, "These particular tubes sound good to my ears. YMMV." Or "Only the music matters."

Here's the worst one -- "We all hear differently." Duh!!:rolleyes:

shack

We will quit stating the obvious....WHEN...we stop getting the quesitons:

"I like speaker A...but I've seen speaker B. Which one should I get?"

Early B.

snow wrote: »

Because each and every one of us have different levels of hearing and how our brains interpet what is pleasurable is different for each of us.

This statement is another example of what I call a "Duh!! statement."

I'm not picking on Snow, but it's kinda like we automatically throw out these obvious statements, partly because we really don't have very much to say.
Since music is based so heavily on personal preferences, then most of the meaningful statements made about music are personal ones, and nobody really gives a rat's **** about someone else's personal tastes.:eek:

I'll be honest -- I just hang around this forum 'cause you guys have a babe thread.:p

Early B.

shack wrote: »

We will quit stating the obvious....WHEN...we stop getting the quesitons:

"I like speaker A...but I've seen speaker B. Which one should I get?"

Ha ha.

Someone should start a "Really Stupid Questions" thread. This one would be in there.

Ricardo

You guys definitely have too much time in your hands :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::)

shack

Ricardo wrote: »

You guys definitely have too much time in your hands :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::)

It's either this or WORK...DUH! :rolleyes:

MGPK

Early B. wrote: »

Ha ha.

Someone should start a "Really Stupid Questions" thread. This one would be in there.

You should read the works of Kant. Maybe that will give you a better understanding to your contemplations. I think it took him around 20 years to make a break through in metaphysics.

jakelm

What happened to the sqaure wave test?

I dont care what anyone says, SPECS ARE IMPORTANT!!!. Specs are a standard for shopping and choosing the right equipment. Fr range, ohms, wattage handling, dbs @ 1 wtt/meter for speakers. Sqaure wave Fr responce, wattage, ohms handling, current drawn for amps/AVR's. It all matters.

None of us buy a product with our eyes close. None of us buy a product with just "hear say", we all look at specs to give us some kind of idea.

Too many times do I see, "wow, look at those specs, looks like a great amp to me", or, "dont waste your time buying that sub, specs shows it cant go down to 35hz", or, "do you have the specs to that peice your selling?".

Specs are very important. So important, that its the first thing I look at before buying. then I look for reviews, then my ears. So in actuality, my ears are the last thing that comes into play. Not saying they are the least important (which I think it altimatly come down to your ears), but its ussually not the first thing we relly on when deciding on a peice of equipment.

Specs are first.

heiney9

Early B. wrote: »

Since music is based so heavily on personal preferences, then most of the meaningful statements made about music are personal ones, and nobody really gives a rat's **** about someone else's personal tastes.:eek:

Partially true, but if a large group of like minded people loosely agree it sounds good then (for me personally) one might be inclined to give a demo vs. a product that has horrible statements made about it.

It's the collective information we get through a wide variety of avenues which influnece what we will even experiment with. I also tend to give a bit more credibility to those people in a particular field that have lots of experience. Sure untlimately it's up to the individual, but w/o feedback from others we're all just taking shots in the dark based on absolutely nothing.

H9

Ricardo

jakelm wrote: »

Specs are very important. So important, that its the first thing I look at before buying. then I look for reviews, then my ears.

Specs are first.

BINGO!!!!!

(Taking a break from work now)

heiney9

jakelm wrote: »

What happened to the sqaure wave test?

I dont care what anyone says, SPECS ARE IMPORTANT!!!. Specs are a standard for shopping and choosing the right equipment. Fr range, ohms, wattage handling, dbs @ 1 wtt/meter for speakers. Sqaure wave Fr responce, wattage, ohms handling, current drawn for amps/AVR's. It all matters.

None of us buy a product with our eyes close. None of us buy a product with just "hear say", we all look at specs to give us some kind of idea.

Too many times do I see, "wow, look at those specs, looks like a great amp to me", or, "dont waste your time buying that sub, specs shows it cant go down to 35hz", or, "do you have the specs to that peice your selling?".

Specs are very important. So important, that its the first thing I look at before buying. then I look for reviews, then my ears. So in actuality, my ears are the last thing that comes into play. Not saying they are the least important (which I think it altimatly come down to your ears), but its ussually not the first thing we relly on when deciding on a peice of equipment.

Specs are first.

How do you know for certain that the specs for products A-B-C-D were derived using the exact same method? If you don't know, then how do you know which one measured better? That's my problem with specs and the fact that you don't take into account the synergy of an entire system, something individual specs can't and don't measure.

Specs are but one small part of the entire equation.

H9

Ricardo

heiney9 wrote: »

Specs are but one small part of the entire equation.

H9

Yes, but an important one. If you have speakers 85db efficient, you probably will not look into the 7WPC SET amps. Back to work now.

heiney9

Ricardo wrote: »

Yes, but an important one. If you have speakers 85db efficient, you probably will not look into the 7WPC SET amps. Back to work now.

OK "spec guys", I'll concede some specs are very std as in the effeciency rating and probably a few others. The reason it's std. is because they spell it out for you. There are meaningful specs to help determine "other" gear choices. By and large slew rate, dynamic power, THD, channel seperation, freq response (in anything other than speakers), dynamic range all pretty much meaningless unless they are on the extreme.

shack

If specs are so important why doesn't Bose® publish them. I hasn't seem to affect thier sales.

PolkThug

shack wrote: »

If specs are so important why doesn't Bose® publish them. I hasn't seem to affect thier sales.

Because Bose is the best!

jakelm

heiney9 wrote: »

How do you know for certain that the specs for products A-B-C-D were derived using the exact same method? If you don't know, then how do you know which one measured better? That's my problem with specs and the fact that you don't take into account the synergy of an entire system, something individual specs can't and don't measure.

Specs are but one small part of the entire equation.

H9

Ok what I do is this. If I'm shopping for a new AVR, I look at the very few manufacturs I trust (HK, Denon, Marantz, Onkyo and a couple of others), then I look in the price range I want to stay in, then I look at the specs. Then I pick the best one with the best specs.

Then I get it home..........then I listen. And 99% of the time, I picked the right one. All becuase I looked at the specs and understood how they were tested and what they mean to me.

What funny is, maybe I'm liking what I hear, because I know the specs.