The "I use my ears to hear" Rant

jakelm

And you know darn well H9!!!!!!! That your only comparing amps and pre/pro's with the same specs!!!!:p:p


Why would you not compare an (amp A) Adcom 100wpc @ 8ohms with a (amp 200wpc @8ohms??? Because its not the same amp. Amp B sounds better because it can drive your LSi's, because of the SPECS:D


And that , my friend, HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR EARS:eek::eek:

heiney9

jakelm wrote: »

Ok what I do is this. If I'm shopping for a new AVR, I look at the very few manufacturs I trust (HK, Denon, Marantz, Onkyo and a couple of others), then I look in the price range I want to stay in, then I look at the specs. Then I pick the best one with the best specs.

Then I get it home..........then I listen. And 99% of the time, I picked the right one. All becuase I looked at the specs and understood how they were tested and what they mean to me.

What funny is, maybe I'm liking what I hear, because I know the specs.

I understand.............I do look at specs but it's usually not the main determining factor. I still go back to my question no one has answered. How do you know specs for products A-B-C-D were derived using the same method? There is no std. measuring practice.

Early B.

jakelm wrote: »

Specs are very important. So important, that its the first thing I look at before buying. then I look for reviews, then my ears.

Another award winner here, folks.

Talk to cfrizz about amp specs.
Talk to Sid about sub specs.
Talk to Mantis about receiver specs.
Etc...

Specs (and price -- duh!!) drive most of our audio purchase decisions. They have to. Aside from aesthetics and reviews/endorsements, there ain't much else to help us out because most of the time, we don't hear it before we buy it.

heiney9

jakelm wrote: »

And you know darn well H9!!!!!!! That your only comparing amps and pre/pro's with the same specs!!!!:p:p


Why would you not compare an (amp A) Adcom 100wpc @ 8ohms with a (amp 200wpc @8ohms??? Because its not the same amp. Amp B sounds better because it can drive your LSi's, because of the SPECS:D


And that , my friend, HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR EARS:eek::eek:

Well why is a 30 watt Alpeh 30, which has a horrible slew rate BTW, picked as one of the best sounding SS amps made. That will be my next amp and if I just looked at specs it wouldn't even be in the running. Luckily NP goes to the trouble in a 12 page owners manual to explain what his design philospohy is, how he choose the components and what his design is intended to do and why it does it.

jakelm

heiney9 wrote: »

I understand.............I do look at specs but it's usually not the main determining factor. I still go back to my question no one has answered. How do you know specs for products A-B-C-D were derived using the same method? There is no std. measuring practice.

DBS @ 1WATT/1METER 20-20kz, is exactly that....ohms are exactly that....a square wave is exactly that...THD is exactly that...wattage handling or producing (being its 1kz or 20hz-20khz) is exactly that

How can you measure that wrong?

shack

jakelm wrote:

Ok what I do is this. If I'm shopping for a new AVR, I look at the very few manufacturs I trust (HK, Denon, Marantz, Onkyo and a couple of others), then I look in the price range I want to stay in, then I look at the specs. Then I pick the best one with the best specs.

Then I get it home..........then I listen. And 99% of the time, I picked the right one. All becuase I looked at the specs and understood how they were tested and what they mean to me.

What funny is, maybe I'm liking what I hear, because I know the specs.

Funny thing is...given your parameters...they will all sound pretty much the same. It would really be hard to pick a bad one. There is very little difference between the mass market AVRs. Typically it is features and reliability that differentiate them.

Ricardo

heiney9 wrote: »

OK "spec guys", I'll concede some specs are very std as in the effeciency rating and probably a few others. The reason it's std. is because they spell it out for you. There are meaningful specs to help determine "other" gear choices. By and large slew rate, dynamic power, THD, channel seperation, freq response (in anything other than speakers), dynamic range all pretty much meaningless unless they are on the extreme.

Most of those other meaningful specs I have no idea what they mean, so they don't play any role on my decision

PolkThug

heiney9 wrote: »

I still go back to my question no one has answered. How do you know specs for products A-B-C-D were derived using the same method? .

The answer to your question seemed so obvious I thought the question was rhetorical.

Answer: We don't know, we weren't there when they tested them.

We can only hope that there is some integrity in their testing.

jakelm

heiney9 wrote: »

Well why is a 30 watt Alpeh 30, which has a horrible slew rate BTW, picked as one of the best sounding SS amps made. That will be my next amp and if I just looked at specs it wouldn't even be in the running. Luckily NP goes to the trouble in a 12 page owners manual to explain what his design philospohy is, how he choose the components and what his design is intended to do and why it does that.

There is nothing wrong with a 30watt SS amp, and I'm sure it sound great, but would you use it to drive LSi's or SRS's or any low efficient speaker, and try to get 110dbs out of it???? Noooooo... no matter how good it is. Why..you may ask??? Because its still 30watts. And that what you have to look at before buying it. The amp has been tested and specs out to 30watts.

jakelm

shack wrote: »

Funny thing is...given your parameters...they will all sound pretty much the same. It would really be hard to pick a bad one. There is very little difference between the mass market AVRs. Typically it is features and reliability that differentiate them.

My point was, I go with manufacturs that have been around, and I trust that their specs are accurate. Regaurdless of its a AVR, AMP, Pre/pro, CABLES, or what ever.

And let me tell you, they have some terrible AVR's out there.

I'm a HT guy, so...

Features? Yes....

Specs? Absolutly......

Putting together a great Theater..that specs out....Priceless.....

Sami

So next time my brother-in-law cranks my car stereos bass and treble to max I can't tell him his ear are WRONG?

heiney9

PolkThug wrote: »

The answer to your question seemed so obvious I thought the question was rhetorical.

Answer: We don't know, we weren't there when they tested them.

We can only hope that there is some integrity in their testing.

So the question is (for the spec guys) how do you know that the number represented on the spec sheet means that one is better than the other if you don't know if those numbers were gotten the same way.

Apple to oranges to banannas to coconuts.........

heiney9

You spec guys are the same as my best friend and cars. He opens up an auto rag goes straight to the specs and based on 0-60 times, hp, torque, etc. determines that one car is better than the other. Needless to say we have a few heated discussions.

All this talk about Oranges, Bannana's, Coconut is making me hungry......time for a lunch break

But I'm going to look at the list of ingredients/nutritional values on the package and determine what the best tasting lunch will be.......specs don't lie. Doesn't matter if it tastes good, but it measures good according to the food label :D

H9

Sami

jakelm wrote: »

There is nothing wrong with a 30watt SS amp, and I'm sure it sound great, but would you use it to drive LSi's or SRS's or any low efficient speaker, and try to get 110dbs out of it???? Noooooo... no matter how good it is. Why..you may ask??? Because its still 30watts. And that what you have to look at before buying it. The amp has been tested and specs out to 30watts.

That will still drive LSi's to over 100dB. You want 110dB? It doesn't matter how it sounds because you won't hear it long...

Face

I'm by far no expert on audio, but want to share my experience. I used to fall for "specs", wpc, distortion, etc.. After spending $$$ on equipment and reading(mostly this forum) I've learned how little those things mean.

I have a 11x16 listening room. With my fairly efficient speakers and class A/B amp, I'm usually using under 1 wpc. If I want to listen loud, maybe I'll push them to 3 wpc. 27wpc and above hurts my ears and causes the lights to dim. Unless you have extremely inefficient speakers or a large listening space, I can't see the need for anything over 25 wpc.

As far as distortion goes, anything under .1% is inaudible, correct? So unless you're using crappy equipment, this is never a issue, correct?

This goes back to what I posted in the other related thread, as long as it sounds good to you, that's all that should matter right?

PolkThug

heiney9 wrote: »

So the question is (for the spec guys) how do you know that the number represented on the spec sheet means that one is better than the other if you don't know if those numbers were gotten the same way.

Apple to oranges to banannas to coconuts.........

Didn't I already answer this? You don't know for sure, but you hope there is some integrity to the data.

jakelm

heiney9 wrote: »

All this talk about Oranges, Bannana's, Coconut is making me hungry......time for a lunch break

But I'm going to look at the list of ingredients/nutritional values on the package and determine what the best tasting lunch will be.......specs don't lie. Doesn't matter if it tastes good, but it measures good according to the food label :D

H9

But you can look at it from a nutritional point of veiw

bikezappa

Early B. wrote: »

Most of us on this board are guilty of posting statements like, "In the end, all that matters is how it sounds." Or how about this one -- "It's not about the gear, it's about enjoying the music." These statements crop up everywhere.

How often should we state the obvious?

Buying audio gear based on how it sounds is like saying, "I'm gonna keep doing this breathing thing until I'm dead." Since music is based on sound, how else are you gonna evaluate it unless you hear it?

So these "I'm all ears" and "we hear differently" statements are dead horse beaters. Surely we can come up with something more meaningful to say.

OK, RANT OVER...

Not sure if this is meaningful.

How and why certain music effects me is a tough question. I have no simple or complete answer. When music can give me goose bumps it becomes a very emotional and personnel experience. Sometimes the goose bump experience can be repeated with the same music and sometimes not. What is always required for me to have the goose bump experience is concentration and privacy.

Way back when, I was driving my old noisy VW bug with an OK system listening to music on the radio. I was changing channels and started to listen to Madam Butterfly. It was like magic. After a while I started to react to the music and started to cry because it was so sad and hopeless. I got home and told my wife to get me a LP recording of Madam Butterfly because I had such a powerful experience listening to it on my car radio. She worked in Boston and would buy LPs based on recommendations from a very knowledgeable salesperson who loved classical music. I got the recording and played on my BIG system and I got no emotional response. I later tried other recordings and even went to a live performance of Madam Butterfly; they were good but nothing like the experience in my VW bug.

Can some one explain this?

Has any one experienced a similar event?

cfrizz

Now I'm at the other end of the spectrum. I don't have any of the technical know how to understand the specs. All of my current knowledge I learned here from the discussions that you guys had & what you have told me.

I usually have a general idea of what I want. Which is what I got when I got my Denon. I really didn't understand most of the features that it had or how to use them. I purchased it after going into Tweeter & getting the recommendation from the salesman, listening to it, & checking reviews of it online.

When I joined this CP, I wanted to upgrade to some LSI's. I had no idea that my receiver couldn't run them, I had no idea I had preouts for separate amplification. I had NO clue how to go about shopping for amps.

Someone was nice enough to look up my Denon specs & tell me that I could add separate amplification & told me where to look in my manual. Others told me names of companies they trusted for separate amplification.

I knew I couldn't afford a Rotel, even though I know they make good gear. Someone posted a link to Audio Advisor with B-stock Parasound 1500 205wpc amp & I got it. Sight unseen or heard. My ears quickly told me that it made a huge difference to what my Denon put out or my Rotel 50wpc amp put out!

From that, I concluded more WPC = well driven speakers = good sound!

I wouldn't have discovered any of this if it hadn't been for this board.

Not everyone has the ability or even wants to be able to understand specs. Nor do I get a lot of info from magazines. I gather all my useful info from the web & real peoples accounts on products they have reviewed that I'm interested in.

jakelm

Then everything you al have said goes against 99% of everything said here at CP.

Too many times have I heard "with those speakers, I wouldnt go with anything less than 200wpc"

I know about wattage and how little true wattage it takes to drive speakers. But why do I hear the previous comment made so many times?????......

A x V = W

This doesnt matter?

H9, I think I heard that statement from you a couple of times too...:p

jakelm

bikezappa wrote: »

Not sure if this is meaningful.

How and why certain music effects me is a tough question. I have no simple or complete answer. When music can give me goose bumps it becomes a very emotional and personnel experience. Sometimes the goose bump experience can be repeated with the same music and sometimes not. What is always required for me to have the goose bump experience is concentration and privacy.

Way back when, I was driving my old noisy VW bug with an OK system listening to music on the radio. I was changing channels and started to listen to Madam Butterfly. It was like magic. After a while I started to react to the music and started to cry because it was so sad and hopeless. I got home and told my wife to get me a LP recording of Madam Butterfly because I had such a powerful experience listening to it on my car radio. She worked in Boston and would buy LPs based on recommendations from a very knowledgeable salesperson who loved classical music. I got the recording and played on my BIG system and I got no emotional response. I later tried other recordings and even went to a live performance of Madam Butterfly; they were good but nothing like the experience in my VW bug.

Can some one explain this?

Has any one experienced a similar event?

Absolutly, hearing a song during a movie, then listeing to it with no movie. 2 totally different experiences.

madmax

Early B. wrote: »

Most of us on this board are guilty of posting statements like, "In the end, all that matters is how it sounds." Or how about this one -- "It's not about the gear, it's about enjoying the music." These statements crop up everywhere.

How often should we state the obvious?

Buying audio gear based on how it sounds is like saying, "I'm gonna keep doing this breathing thing until I'm dead." Since music is based on sound, how else are you gonna evaluate it unless you hear it?

I totally disagree. Many buy the equipment they have because some reviewer liked it, it was the right color, the brand matched their other stuff, the manufacturer name is better than their buddys, old preferences, it has tubes, it is analog, it is digital, its the best bang for the buck etc. Who are these people who actually buy something because it sounds better?

BTW, I purchased my phono pre because it was reviewed well in stereophile, my preamp because it has two REALLY big tubes on it and my amps because they had a lot of tubes in each one. Oh yea, they were all purple too. The DQ10 speakers were so homely looking I just felt bad for them...
madmax

bikezappa

jakelm wrote: »

Absolutly, hearing a song during a movie, then listeing to it with no movie. 2 totally different experiences.

Yes I have experinced that also. The visuals are very powerful.

jakelm

I dont think anyone has to understand the ins and outs of specs, but only to know the parameters of a good spec.

I dont fully understand THD, but I know less than .1% is good. So I watch out for that.

Not everyone knows about scan rates, but almost evreyone can tell you 1080p is better than 480p. Why??..because it is...specs back up the visual experience with 1080p.

Ricardo

bikezappa wrote: »

Not sure if this is meaningful.

How and why certain music effects me is a tough question. I have no simple or complete answer. When music can give me goose bumps it becomes a very emotional and personnel experience. Sometimes the goose bump experience can be repeated with the same music and sometimes not. What is always required for me to have the goose bump experience is concentration and privacy.

Way back when, I was driving my old noisy VW bug with an OK system listening to music on the radio. I was changing channels and started to listen to Madam Butterfly. It was like magic. After a while I started to react to the music and started to cry because it was so sad and hopeless. I got home and told my wife to get me a LP recording of Madam Butterfly because I had such a powerful experience listening to it on my car radio. She worked in Boston and would buy LPs based on recommendations from a very knowledgeable salesperson who loved classical music. I got the recording and played on my BIG system and I got no emotional response. I later tried other recordings and even went to a live performance of Madam Butterfly; they were good but nothing like the experience in my VW bug.

Can some one explain this?

Has any one experienced a similar event?

Often called as the "mood" ingredient. Specs or system mean absolutely nothing if you're in the right mood.

jakelm

I think...and dont laugh, but serious.

In my book, reviews are part of the specs to me.

Its like this: A+B+C+D+E=F

A= specs
B= price
C= looks (well not so much, if AB and D are great)
D= reviews
E= sound (if I can demo before purchasing)

F= final purchase

PolkThug

Guilty. I bought my SVS PB10's purely on published third-party specs and reviews.

bikezappa

Ricardo wrote: »

Often called as the "mood" ingredient. Specs or system mean absolutely nothing if you're in the right mood.

Can I buy that?

It's from Kansas.

jakelm

I think reading on benchmark testing is a great way to decide.

shack

I can honestly say that I have never bought a piece of audio gear because of specs. In general I will consider wpc, ohms/impedance and frequency response having more to do with compatibilty than performance. The design of gear has more relevance to me than specs. The one exception may have been the recording capabilities of RR and cassette recorders back in the day.