Benefits of additional subs....

McLoki

Well, doing some more reseach and now I am thinking I would be better off with with one of the new ultra subs PB13 rather than the plus 2. (supposed to be better extension below 30hz and about the same output level above 30hz)

If it is still not enough I could always add another one at a later date. If nothing else, it should be able to blow away the 25-31 I have now. I will e-mail Ed M. about that tomorrow and let you all know what he says....

Michael

Ron Temple

The reason he probably made the original recommendation for a Plus/2 is driver/tuning. No discernible timbre mismatch and tuned variably to the same FR. I don't know what the new Ultra will sound like with the Plus...maybe Ed doesn't either . Could be that even with 13K cube, the Ultra13 maybe enough.

Ron Temple

Here you go Michael...a user review from AVS

Originally Posted by bgillyjcu
I'm on the fence between a SECOND 16-46+ or a PC-ULTRA to go with my CURRENT 16-46+...



NEED MORE INPUT!!!


Here's my input, get rid of the 16-46+ and pick up a PC-ULTRA13!
If you need more bass than the new Ultra will give you,
get your ears checked
But really, the bass I'm hearing from the new Ultra is in a different class than anything I've heard from SVS, HSU, etc.... well the HO w/Turbo was pretty darn good, just not as much as this new Ultra is capable of.
The Ultra13's bass reminds me of the JL f113's tuneful, articulate bass....
but on STEROIDS

dc

McLoki

Well, this is what ed said about the ultra...

1 ultra is about equal to a plus/2 when tuned to 20hz. When tuned to 16hz, the ultra would come out the winner.

1 ultra is about equal to 2 plus subs.

For my room his recommendation wavered between 2 plus subs and the ultra sub. He thought the 2 plus subs would work better in my room (and he liked the looks of the plus sub (downfiring) better). His reason was that 2 woofers would just balance out the sound better. He did say it was a tossup either way and would come down to personal preference.

The plus/2 came in last (mainly due to my requirement for deep tuning).

All 3 options were given without me running my CS+. Right now I am leaning twords the new ultra sub just because I will alway wonder - what if. (and I can always add another one if just one is not doing it for me.)

DIY is still not out of the question for me and I need to look at that avenue as well. If I purchase a complete sub though - the new Ultra is where it is currently at for me.

That is where I am firmly standing for at least the next 5 minutes (or the next post - whichever comes first)

Michael

bsoko2

Check out this site to make a firm sub desicion:

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests/

Bill

Ron Temple

Hmmm...Ed told me the new Ultra will exceed a couple of Pluses...oh well, listen to him for your room.

McLoki

I am pulling my info from memory - I will forward the e-mail home (it was at my work e-mail) and post exactly what he said. I may be mistaken - that is what I thought he said though - we will know for sure tonight.

MikeC78

Michael,

I'd say if you could swing it grab the Ultra. You could possibly wait for the Ultra/2 or just add more singles with time. No buyer's remorse, and you'd know that you could not possibly do better unless you go DIY. Then you might run into WAF?

Soon I plan on going the newer PCU route!:eek:

MikeC78

Really want to get my ears on one of these, even though I don't have the room. Maybe someday I'll have the house like this.:o

http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/seatonsound/vpost?id=1945927

http://www.websitetoolbox.com/tool/post/seatonsound/vpost?id=2005875

McLoki

Here is the reply e-mail I recieved. (Ed's response is quoted within the quote of my original e-mail) Note we had discussed dual PC-Plus/2 in a previous e-mail and this was my first mention of the new Ultra. (I did mention that the dual PC-Plus/2 would be nice, but is out of my budget for now.) I am sure that is why dual Ultras was not mentioned in his reply.

For those thinking of getting subs from SVS though - there is alot of good info here to base your opinion on, and how some of the different SVS subs compare to each other.

I was looking at some of the information that SVS has been sharing with the internet community on their new PB-13 sub. From what I have read, it appears that the output above 30hz would be about the same as the Plus/2 and would be greater below 30hz.

In the 25 Hz tune, the Plus/2 is slightly stronger than the PB13-Ultra from 25-80 Hz but it loses badly below 25 Hz. In the 20 Hz tune, the deep extension is pretty close, and they are very close in max output from 30-80 Hz, and below 30 Hz, the Ultra starts to pull ahead in max output.

In a 16hz tune, would the following end up being about equal? – 1 PB-13 OR 2 PB-Plus’s OR 1 PB-Plus/2 – It actually sounds like I would be better off with the new ultra than the plus/2. (pre-order price would be not that much more than the Plus/2 in gloss black. – I could sell my 25-31 and offset the cost difference) If it was still not enough, I could always add another one at a later date. Either way – if the 25-31 is close now – From what I am reading, the new ultra would put me over the top (if not, it would at least be a noticeable step up)

Dual PB12-Plus (native tune) barely nose out a single PB13-Ultra (native tune). Dual PB12-Plus (16 Hz tune) are virtually dead even with a single Ultra (15 Hz tune).

The Plus/2 in the 16 Hz tune falls a 3-5 dB behind the dual PB12-Plus (16 Hz tune) or the PB13-Ultra (15 Hz tune) from 16-30 Hz, but is close from 30-80 Hz.

Dual Plus/2 in the 16 Hz tune matches or exceeds dual PB12-Plus (16 Hz) or the PB13-Ultra (15 Hz tune) from 16-30 Hz, and naturally dominates from 35-80 Hz.

Any of the three options: dual PB12-Plus, a single Plus/2, or a PB13-Ultra will kill a single 25-31CS+.

What is your opinion of this or is the new Ultra still going to be not enough in my large room (where 2 PB-Pluses would be ok)? Thanks again for all the time and effort you are putting into my questions, I am at least getting closer – at this expense though, I cannot afford a misstep so research before the purchase is definitely a requirement.

My personal recommendation is dual Plus/2 for your size room - headroom, headroom, headroom. :^) Next-up - it would be hard to choose since they are almost tied performance wise, but I would probably take dual PB12-Plus over a single PB13-Ultra only because of placement flexibility and aesthetics (I personally love the look of the base-plate). Third - a single Plus/2 would be my least preferred option, but still an awesome upgrade.

Edit - remember the main focus of my need was filling a large space - Frequency response and sound quality was not the primary consideration.

Ron Temple

Very informative...I edited out Ed's reply to me last night, but, with apologies if he'd prefer otherwise...

Ron Temple wrote:

Hey Ed,

I really like what 2 subs are doing for me, the 20-39+ and DIY+(which I still haven't tuned properly), but I have a couple of interested buyers. From what I've read the PC or PBU13 should exceed or match the output...thinking about letting my subs go and replacing them with your new puppy. However, I'm hesitant to lose the flat FR that 2 subs provide.

What can I expect?

1 PBU vs dual Plus

Thanks...

Ron

Ed Mullen wrote:

Hi Ron:

If you are going to pull the trigger, get the box version. It's a better performer in the deepest bass regions. The PB13U will beat dual PC+ in sheer output and provide much better FR and output linearity across the pass band.

Ed Mullen

Looks like I'll have to ask him again...I really prefer what 2 subs does to my room w/o EQ. If I'm assured of better SQ and a reasonable FR then the upgrade is in order. If not, I'll stand pat.

RT

MikeC78

Hello Michael!

You have me curious, did you come to any decisions yet?? Someday I'd like to stop by and check out your HT, when you're not busy.

McLoki

I think the ultra is the direction I am going to go in. I will have to wait awhile on it - In the mean time - if opus ends up with an extra 25-31 he is not using, I may try and purchase that from him to get me by. (I would like to at least try 2 subs and see if it helps in my crappy room.)

I have broke the news to the wife that I want to spend upwards of $3,000 on subwoofers and she has not asked for the divorce yet. - a good sign in my book.

Michael

rtart

Have you tried bass shakers? I've got two SVS 25-31 PCPlus's, running through a Velodyne SMS-1, which gives me plenty of thump. However, I found that bass transducers like Buttkickers added a lot. I actually use one Aura shaker under each of my Berkline 090 seats. I use a sub plate amp I found on eBay with IR controlled frequency selection and intensity, so I can adjust it on the fly with my Pronto. Works great, and adds a lot to the movie experience, IMO.

Sherardp

rtart wrote: »

Have you tried bass shakers? I've got two SVS 25-31 PCPlus's, running through a Velodyne SMS-1, which gives me plenty of thump. However, I found that bass transducers like Buttkickers added a lot. I actually use one Aura shaker under each of my Berkline 090 seats. I use a sub plate amp I found on eBay with IR controlled frequency selection and intensity, so I can adjust it on the fly with my Pronto. Works great, and adds a lot to the movie experience, IMO.

My dual pb12 plus2s can do this, bass shakers are kind of annoying. I want the subs to be able to bring the house down and throw heart pounding bass at my chest.

rtart

McLoki wrote: »

Hello all - have a question for everyone. I have a huge as in HUGE room that is impossible to pressurize. I am currently using an SVS 25-31cs+ as my subwoofer. While I do like it, it does not give the impact that I really want. (that punch in the chest feeling) It does hit the volume I want, but just does not have the impact I am looking for. (I assume due to the size of my room)

I have been toying with the idea of getting an SVS Plus/2 sub. (I think the gloss black will go very well with my LSi's) My question is, other than looks - will there be any benefit to the upgrade if I do not need additional volume?

I spoke with SVS and they said I could run with the plus/2 and my existing CS+ since they are tuned the same - so I would go from 1 12" woofer to 3.

Should I or not - and what benefit do you expect I will see?

Thanks for your help, just don't want to spend $1,400 to get the same sound I have now.....

Michael

Have you done any calibration? I put 2 25-31 PC Plus's in my HT, and wasn't really all that impressed until I bought a Velodyne SMS-1 to equalize them. I also found that adjust the phase controls made a BIG difference. One is set at 0 degrees, and the other at close to 180 degrees. The total SPL at 32 Hz rose by 6 db. Basically, I'd try EQing the system first, (it's free!!) then add more subs if you need to.

McLoki

Ok - got a demo sub to try out from Opus. It is a powered version of my sub, a 25-31PC+. (mine is a 25-31cs+)

As already discussed, my room is huge. I currently have both subs colocated to take maximum advantage of the plus woofer. I also have both subs set to a 20hz tune. While I do use music to fine tune the level of bass, I use my system for about 95% home theater.

I have a BFD in my system that has been calibrated for my single sub. I have not changed any of the settings (but do have both subs running through the previously set up filter of the BFD).

I matched the level of the powered sub to match the output I get from my CS+. (amp on the back of the powered sub is set at almost exactly 12:00 to match the output). Once done, I spent about 20 min. recaibrating the volume to get the bass how I liked it. It ended up exactly 6db under where I had it.

I was looking for more impact to the bass. More of that hit you in the chest feeling. It still does not give me the impact I was looking for though. It can shake the floor and couch like they were in a paint mixer, but does not give you the tactile feel I was looking for. I really think my room is an excellent canidate for a pair of the new ultras, unfortunately that is just not in the budget right now.

While it is not giving me the feeling I was looking for, it is still worth the upgrade to duals for the effortless feeling the the bass now has. I only demoed a few movies so far (master and commander and war of the worlds) but am happy with the increased clarity that has been added to the bass. It always seems like it has more to give and it never seems strained at any of my normal volume levels. (up to about -10 - my typical demo sound level)

Once I get used to the dual setup and see what it is capable of in its current location, I will try moving them further apart to see if I can smooth out the bass in my room a little bit. I also still need to re-map the bass in my room and possibly tune my BFD for the dual sub setup.

For now I am happy and that is a tweak for another day...

Michael

MikeC78

Michael,

How far are the subs from nearfield? Sounds to me like you're getting a null somewhere, I'd love to see what is going on in your room with the Velodyne SMS-1.

Something just doesn't sound right...

Mike

McLoki

My room is crap for bass....


Michael

MikeC78

McLoki wrote: »

My room is crap for bass....


Michael

Yeah, that is pretty nasty....

I think you need one of these...

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57744

Mike:D

Early B.

McLoki --

My friend has the same problem, although his room is not quite as large as yours. He has a "wimpy" SVS 25/31 in the far front corner of the room and it has no guts. You can forget about tactile feel with "typical" subs for such a large room, no matter how many you get. Size matters here.

I went from an SVS box sub with 12" woofer to a 15" DIYer in my 13' x 20' and the difference was night and day. Serious bang for buck -- literally. My sub is also next to the seating position.

If you can't or won't upgrade, then you gotta move that sub around and find the best location for it. Better positioning may help with those huge peaks and valleys. Also, buy Mike's Velo SMS-1.

Dennis Gardner

If you own your home, I would find a way to build a multi driver infinite baffle design. Nothing in a box comes close to the deep bass produced in an IB setup.

It may take alot of thinking to find the closet/attic/crawl space/adjacent room to accomodate your needs, but you can do more with IB for the $$$ than any sub on the market.

http://ibsubwoofers.proboards51.com/index.cgi?

Ron Temple

Looks like placement/traps maybe the only solution that can cure that null. Moving the subs for a better frequency response certainly can help, but the way you're currently setup, your tactile bass is at the bottom of the canyon. Experiment with placement first...if you can get flat in the 40-60hz range without losing the bottom, things will improve quite a bit. Though SVS subs shine more in linear bass rather than bumpy.

Good luck...

opus

easy now boys I want to sell that extra sub to McLoki;)

McLoki

That graph is with one 25-31. I have just added another one and have them colocated. I will play with placement of the second sub to see if I can tame some of the bass canyons that I have now. The review was more of a first impression with the colocation.

Michael

BTW - I am currently about 12' from the subs.

McLoki

opus wrote: »

easy now boys I want to sell that extra sub to McLoki;)

Always the consummate salesman..... Well - its not really doing what I want it to but for the right price I may still take it off your hands....

opus

McLoki wrote: »

Well - its not really doing what I want it to but for the right price I may still take it off your hands....

Now who is being the salesman:D


I wonder what my room will sound like with 2 ultra's and 1 pc+:rolleyes:

bsoko2

McLoki - try a MBM-12 with your sub in a nearfield postion. I got one today and it does the job. Nice detailed bass with no distortion. My room is like yours, large and over 6000 cubic feet with two large openings on the left to the kitchen and hallway. The MBM and my 3.3 Turbo together are incredible!

Sherardp

try dual plus 2s that should do the trick

MikeC78

Screw all that!! You guys have it all wrong, he needs a couple of these...

http://www.eminent-tech.com/RWbrochure.htm




:rolleyes: