Benefits of additional subs....

McLoki

Hello all - have a question for everyone. I have a huge as in HUGE room that is impossible to pressurize. I am currently using an SVS 25-31cs+ as my subwoofer. While I do like it, it does not give the impact that I really want. (that punch in the chest feeling) It does hit the volume I want, but just does not have the impact I am looking for. (I assume due to the size of my room)

I have been toying with the idea of getting an SVS Plus/2 sub. (I think the gloss black will go very well with my LSi's) My question is, other than looks - will there be any benefit to the upgrade if I do not need additional volume?

I spoke with SVS and they said I could run with the plus/2 and my existing CS+ since they are tuned the same - so I would go from 1 12" woofer to 3.

Should I or not - and what benefit do you expect I will see?

Thanks for your help, just don't want to spend $1,400 to get the same sound I have now.....

Michael

opus

There is an old farmer saying, " If 1 is good then 2 is better". I guess then 3 would be just about right.


In a month or so I will have a little more to say about this, if you know what I mean.

Good luck, if you want to borrow another 25-31 for a week, let me know. it's yours;)


kevin

ben62670

SonoSub!!!
Save Money, and tear down house!!!
Give me a call if you want to go for it.
Ben

wingnut4772

I'll never go back to a single sub...at least for HT. Much more slam and more even after using the SMS-1. It used to bug the hell out of me that I could localize my bass before.

John K.

Michael, "that punch" is closely related to volume, so the two shouldn't be discussed as separate matters. Adding a second sub will give you an additional 3dB if they're widely separated(other factors being held constant)and up to 6dB if they're located close to each other(within about a quarter wavelength at the highest frequencies the subs will handle)and mutually reinforce each other.

Using two subs located opposite each other either midway on the sidewalls or the front and back walls has advantages in minimizing the unevenness in bass response resulting from room resonance modes. However, if turning up the level on your present sub doesn't give you more of that "punch", you shouldn't expect that simply adding a second sub will give it to you either.

engtaz

12 has very good punch 15 has very good earth shaker.

Early B.

"Go big or go home."

Twleve inch drivers are too wimpy for a large room. I don't give a damn how much amperage they've got behind them. Build two 15" subs, get yourself a set of full range front floorstanders set to LARGE, and you're done.

Systems

In your big room you should find that the addition of the Plus 2 will give you much more impact because large rooms need more volume displacement.Also as JK mentioned relative placement in the room is important.For maximum output and impact corner placement is the best but this can result in some uneven (boomy)response so experimenting is advised.I found that even in my small 11'x19' room adding a second 12" sub was benificial.

Early B.

I imagine it would be challenging to pressurize a very large room. Another trick is to place the sub close to your seating position. It may not be ideal, but at least you'll "feel" the bass. I think feeling the bass is just as important as the sound.

I don't care what anybody says, if your entire room isn't vibrating with low passages in HT, and the ceiling fan isn't about to come crashing down, then upgrades in the subwoofer department would be beneficial.

By the way, what are the dimensions of your room?

ben62670

My room is 22x22x8. My Sono is more than adequate for the room. I have also seen Sono's wrapped with silk cloth socks that make them a welcome addition to any large room. Just imagine shimmering silk cloth sock over a large Sono sub! Very pretty. The one I saw was in silver. This way the wife could be involved with the process. You would be looking at less than $600 for both subs minus amps, and I could make the round tops for you.
Enjoy

Sherardp

wingnut4772 wrote: »

I'll never go back to a single sub...at least for HT. Much more slam and more even after using the SMS-1. It used to bug the hell out of me that I could localize my bass before.

I can definitely agree with you here. Dual SVS PB12 PLus 2s and a SMS-1 controlling it all. Crazy amounts of bass, never a single sub for me.

McLoki

Early B. wrote: »

I don't care what anybody says, if your entire room isn't vibrating with low passages in HT, and the ceiling fan isn't about to come crashing down, then upgrades in the subwoofer department would be beneficial.

By the way, what are the dimensions of your room?

My home theater is in the family room of my house. I have a very open floorplan and essentially my entire 1st floor is exposed. I have 8' ceilings in all rooms except one (and that one is exposed to the home theater via a 9' opening and another 5' opening) In order to pressurize the room - I would have to pressurize somewhere between 11,000 and 13,000 cubic feet of air.

I sit about 12' away from the sub right now.

You can click on the quote in my sig to see pics of what I am talking about....

Like I said - volume wise, the sub I have is fine. (My average lisening volume is -15 with the sub about 3db hot) I would just really like to get more impact out of it. I am looking for that punch in the chest / take your breath away feeling rather than just the floor and the couch vibrating..... I just don't know if it is worth even trying to get in my room. Should I just wait to upgrade until I can move my home theater in a smaller room in the basement? (years (if then) away)

Thanks again for everyones help and suggestions.

Michael

Face

If you do purchase something big enough to pressurize that area, move that poor bird's cage away!

MikeC78

I'm sure a couple Danley DTS-20's, Seaton Sound Submersive's, or maybe a few SVS Ultra's comming out should do the trick?:)

How about a few JL audio f113's?:eek:

Systems

MikeC78 wrote: »

How about a few JL audio f113's?:eek:

Or just pony up for the JL Gotham.Im sure it's inexpensive.:)

McLoki

MikeC78 wrote: »

maybe a few SVS Ultra's comming out should do the trick?:)

I called SVS and they suggested the Plus/2 over the ultra for my room. (it was actually their idea to run it and the 25-31cs+ that I have now) If I had the bucks - I would just get 2 of the plus/2's, but that just isn't in the cards.

I would like to build a sub, but I do not know how to pull off the gloss black finish to match my LSi's. (as stupid as it sounds, that is the big draw to the Plus/2 - the gloss black is currently the same price as the normal finish).

So is impact - room dependant, distance from sub, or just volume based? I did not think it was just volume because I have felt the impact I was talking about before and it was at a lower volume than I have had my system.

Michael

MikeC78

GV#27 wrote: »

Or just pony up for the JL Gotham.Im sure it's inexpensive.:)

I was only kidding about the JL's(hence the smiley). The Gotham is like two f113's built into each other for a HUGE price(8-9g's). I'd rather go dual f113's, than pay for a single Gotham.

If I was rich and had no space, the JL's would definetly be on top of my list.

MikeC78

McLoki wrote: »

I called SVS and they suggested the Plus/2 over the ultra for my room. (it was actually their idea to run it and the 25-31cs+ that I have now) If I had the bucks - I would just get 2 of the plus/2's, but that just isn't in the cards.

I would like to build a sub, but I do not know how to pull off the gloss black finish to match my LSi's. (as stupid as it sounds, that is the big draw to the Plus/2 - the gloss black is currently the same price as the normal finish).

So is impact - room dependant, distance from sub, or just volume based? I did not think it was just volume because I have felt the impact I was talking about before and it was at a lower volume than I have had my system.

Michael

Hello Michael,

I think you answered your own question? For the price the Piano black +/2 is going for is a darn good price, would definetly be a step forward from where you are. Down the road when funds are more disposable, you could always grab a matching one for some insane output.

Another suggestion, check out HSU's MBM. Do you have a spot next to your seating position where you could place this nearfield? This sub would really help in giving you that "tactile" feel. I'd email Dr. HSU your rom dimensions, and see what he has to say.

Mike

wingnut4772

I would like to replace my 2 SVS subs with the JL FII3 just for the size savings. Too bad they are so expensive.

Phasearray

John K. wrote: »

Michael, "that punch" is closely related to volume, so the two shouldn't be discussed as separate matters. Adding a second sub will give you an additional 3dB if they're widely separated(other factors being held constant)and up to 6dB if they're located close to each other(within about a quarter wavelength at the highest frequencies the subs will handle)and mutually reinforce each other.

I don't quite understand this. 6dB = 4X the power and 3dB = 2X the power. How does having twice the sub give you 4X the power?

Face

It's right there.

McLoki

Phasearray wrote: »

I don't quite understand this. 6dB = 4X the power and 3dB = 2X the power. How does having twice the sub give you 4X the power?

John is correct in his math here (although I did not realize how the spacing worked into things)

To get 3db louder is a small sound increase and requires twice the power. To double the volume is a 10db increase and requires 10x the power.

Every time you double the distance from the speaker - volume decreases by 6db.

Having 2 speakers right next to each other (or on top of each other) increases your volume by 6db. having 2 speakers on opposite sides of the room will still make it louder but only by 3db.

Just one of those weird logrithmic sound things......

Michael

bsoko2

Michael - a farfield/nearfield sub setup is what I would recommend for the area you have. I have the same situation with my 3.3 Turbo and this sub is excellent but was lacking the FEEL that I wanted. I had two older subs so I stacked them behind the couch and used a inline filter set to 50 hz high. The 3.3 Turbo cutoff is set at 50 hz. The sound is much better now and the bass is felt through the seating area. HSU does the same thing with their MBM-12 in the nearfield postion and they built that sub just for this reason. I will purchase one of the MBM-12 in the future for my needs, but for right now the 2 stacked subs do the job for me.

Bill

Sherardp

I say run with the PB12 PLus/2 and dont look back. Add the SMS-1 to balance or should I say tweak everything. Later on if you decide to go another PB12 PLus/2 then you can simply add that to the SMS-1 since it supports 3 subs. That should put you over the top and definitely where you wanna be.

ben62670

Me personally would have 2 subs setup apart. The DB may drop as John has pointed out, but I would prefer the bass localization be spread out. With my Sono off to one side the room gain is strong, but the localization is very present. I am not saying choose one over the other, but for me I would rater have the 2 separated.

Systems

MikeC78 wrote: »

If I was rich and had no space, the JL's would definetly be on top of my list.

Mine too.They are awesome products to be sure.

bsoko2's suggestion of farfield/nearfield is a good one and one Im planning to try in the near future.

Ron Temple

I've been running 2 Plus subs in a 2000 cube family room that opens to around 7500 (the front of the house). Spaced about 6' apart, in the front soundstage (one corner loaded) I get nearly the whole 6db heardroom increase. Not only do I have a flattened FR, without EQ, but considerable pressurization and impact...calibrated flat @72db vs 75db for the speakers. In fact, for some material I'm still too hot. I think SVS is right, a Plus/2 will do the trick, even in your huge space.

McLoki

Ron -

I spoke with Ed from SVS (via e-mail) and he suggested either 2 Plus subs (like what you are running) or a Plus/2 and my CS+.

He did say that 2 of the Plus/2 subs would be best, but realised (correctly) that this would probably be over budget. Since my uses are almost entirely home theater, I would like the additional depth (and slightly smaller size) that the plus subs would offer.

So, you think that you get plenty (in your opinion) of impact and can feel the bass in your chest? (not just in your floor and couch vibrating?)

Opus - I may take you up on your offer to borrow your PC-plus. let me know when you have some time and we can compare/contrast the difference of 2 subs vs the one that I am now running to see if the upgrade would be worth it.

Thanks everyone for your help and opinions. - keep em coming if you have them....

Michael

Ron Temple

McLoki wrote: »

Ron -


So, you think that you get plenty (in your opinion) of impact and can feel the bass in your chest? (not just in your floor and couch vibrating?)

Got your PM...I've got a smaller space and every room's different, but I think you can fairly say that I get floor, couch, chest, and wind in the face when the input and volume are right. Personally and as Ed suggested, I think you need to match your CS with a Plus/2. A guy on AVS, Warpdrv (is he over here too?) matched his Plus/2 with a Plus in a 9000 cube room with great results. Since you have the huge space, it's the minimum I'd go...but by all means, you should borrow the other Plus to check it out. It will be much better.

Ask fredv, Skynut or Polk65 for testimonials regarding my duals -1 (I lent Steve my DIYPlus last weekend and miss it dearly).

BTW...first landings on the PC13U are occurring. There's a guy I know, whose claiming it's got more output and extention with equal SQ to the JL F113...his last purchase.
Ed tells me that one PB13U will easily exceed my 2 Pluses, but to wait for the PB.

opus

McLoki wrote: »

Ron -

I spoke with Ed from SVS (via e-mail) and he suggested either 2 Plus subs (like what you are running) or a Plus/2 and my CS+.

He did say that 2 of the Plus/2 subs would be best, but realised (correctly) that this would probably be over budget. Since my uses are almost entirely home theater, I would like the additional depth (and slightly smaller size) that the plus subs would offer.

So, you think that you get plenty (in your opinion) of impact and can feel the bass in your chest? (not just in your floor and couch vibrating?)

Opus - I may take you up on your offer to borrow your PC-plus. let me know when you have some time and we can compare/contrast the difference of 2 subs vs the one that I am now running to see if the upgrade would be worth it.

Thanks everyone for your help and opinions. - keep em coming if you have them....

Michael

Anytime, you know how to reach me. Should be a piece of cake to unhook so I won't use that excuse:o

Ron Temple

Just to put it into perspective...the single Plus is fine...meaning outstanding bass response...a few holes in the FR, but great impact vs. blending capability. 2 subs are surprising, you calibrate them under reference and they still exceed previous performance...effortless impact and the benefit for me in my placement options, I actually got flat...a couple of +/- 5s from 16-100hz (so a good blend since I cut them at 60). The added headroom does make a difference in SQ too.