another wattae question

Gaara

heiney9 wrote: »

No not always. Generalizing in audio is a very dangerous thing. I could show you some low wattage Class A amps that would be just the opposite of your statement. They have less wattage, larger caps, output more current have more headroom, less distortion, yada, yada, yada. It also depends on if the amplifier design is a current source or a voltage source as this is where the differences in many tube designs are. Tube power is not the same as SS power.

H9

I totally agree here. I think the amp design has much more to do with sound quality then power output, so long as you are not reaching the limit of your amp.

tcrossma

I'm a little confused by one thing. Don't some harder to drive speakers require more wattage? For example, take the LSI series. Would they sound good at moderate listening levels using a high quality 65 wpc amp? Or is it that in all cases you only need higher wattage when approaching deafening sound levels?

cfrizz

Sigh, I'm tired of this.

Believe whatever you want, measure everything. All I know & what others have confirmed with thier own ears on this board is that when they got more wattage, the music became clearer, there was better separation of instruments, vocals & bass were better, and they could go louder with ease with less stress on thier receivers.

I want greater clarity, & more headroom, & to go as loud or as soft as I want without straining my ears or my speakers. 200wpc & up deliver it at a price I can afford.

I found this out thanks to the info passed along on this board when I first joined. This was when everyone was into surround sound, big bass & 'Man Amps'.

The fact that half of you went ga ga over tubes & vinyl & are now trying to back track, won't change the good accurate information that you originally gave out.

I will continue to give out this good, affordable information to those who want to listen, try it & find out for themselves.

Anyone who is running a HT setup will benefit from this information just as I have.

heiney9

tcrossma wrote: »

I'm a little confused by one thing. Don't some harder to drive speakers require more wattage? For example, take the LSI series. Would they sound good at moderate listening levels using a high quality 65 wpc amp? Or is it that in all cases you only need higher wattage when approaching deafening sound levels?

No they require large amounts of current. You can have a high current amp with moderate wattage or you can have a high powered amp with little available current.

H9

cfrizz

I never listen to my system at reference level I would end up deaf.

I had a 50wpc "high current" amp originally pushing my speakers. When I went up to 205wpc "high current amp I heard details that I never heard with either my 1st "high current" amp or my receiver!

My speakers did sound good with the above, they sounded BETTER with more!

So that tells me that all "high current" amps are not equal as well.

I can hear it all now..."well it's really not a quality amp.":rolleyes: I'm not interested in pay the premium "quality prices" when I can get the same with affordable more wattage equipment.

The bottom line is do you want your speakers to always operate to thier full potential so that you are getting all the details that are in the recording or not?

Do you want to risk your expensive speakers by under powering them or not?

I would rather have & not need rather than need & not have after finding out the hard way from breaking my equipment.

tcrossma wrote: »

I'm a little confused by one thing. Don't some harder to drive speakers require more wattage? For example, take the LSI series. Would they sound good at moderate listening levels using a high quality 65 wpc amp? Or is it that in all cases you only need higher wattage when approaching deafening sound levels?

jdhdiggs

I tend to agree with H9 and mul on this topic more so then Cathy. In the end, it comes down to personal preference. From preference on personal amps that I've owned would go:
35W Tubes
2W (yes two) Tubes
170W Hybrid
400W SS Monster
250W SS

Interestingly enough the only two amps currently hooked up are the top and bottom ones.

hearingimpared

cfrizz wrote: »

So that tells me that all "high current" amps are not equal as well.

Do you want to risk your expensive speakers by under powering them or not?

I would rather have & not need rather than need & not have after finding out the hard way from breaking my equipment.

Here is an example; A friend of ours, who will go nameless, had his rather inefficient speakers (I believe 84db) driven with a well known, respected (in most circles) amplifier rated at 225 wpc. While listening to a CD that had two really heavy tympani hammer shots, the amp bottomed out and clipped. Now that friend has those same speakers driven, of all things, by a very very good AVR rated at 125 wpc. He played the same CD and had no trouble with clipping or bottoming out.

So the lesson here is >>>>:D

heiney9

cfrizz wrote: »

I never listen to my system at reference level I would end up deaf.

I had a 50wpc "high current" amp originally pushing my speakers. When I went up to 205wpc "high current amp I heard details that I never heard with either my 1st "high current" amp or my receiver!

My speakers did sound good with the above, they sounded BETTER with more!

So that tells me that all "high current" amps are not equal as well.

I can hear it all now..."well it's really not a quality amp.":rolleyes: I'm not interested in pay the premium "quality prices" when I can get the same with affordable more wattage equipment.

The bottom line is do you want your speakers to always operate to thier full potential so that you are getting all the details that are in the recording or not?

Do you want to risk your expensive speakers by under powering them or not?

I would rather have & not need rather than need & not have after finding out the hard way from breaking my equipment.

I'm thinking along the lines of higher end botique type amps. Pass Labs, Monarchy, Threshold, Classe, etc. So in terms of quality parts and contruction and design these are off the charts and probably not available to the masses. So yes, Cathy if you are comparing a 50 watt Rotel to a 200 watt Cineova then you are dead on correct, but it's not nec because of the wattage. Generally a byproduct of higher wattage units is the use of higher quality components and a better design and much better implementation.

I tried to make a simple point about a very complicated subject. Nothing is cut and dried in audio. And I refuse if at all possible to generalize. Each persons experiences, expectations, and listening needs are different and unique and sometimes they need to use the same learning curve the rest of us have used in the many years we've been in this hobby.

There are so many variables to consider whne trying to answer a simple question as has been posed in this thread.

H9

venomclan

heiney9 wrote: »

I'm thinking along the lines of higher end botique type amps. Pass Labs, Monarchy, Threshold, Classe, etc. So in terms of quality parts and contruction and design these are off the charts and probably not available to the masses. So yes, Cathy if you are comparing a 50 watt Rotel to a 200 watt Cineova then you are dead on correct, but it's not nec because of the wattage. Generally a byproduct of higher wattage units is the use of higher quality components and a better design and much better implementation.

I tried to make a simple point about a very complicated subject. Nothing is cut and dried in audio. And I refuse if at all possible to generalize. Each persons experiences, expectations, and listening needs are different and unique and sometimes they need to use the same learning curve the rest of us have used in the many years we've been in this hobby.

There are so many variables to consider whne trying to answer a simple question as has been posed in this thread.
H9

I agree. When I first entered this hobby, I did not know why some 100 watt amps cost $300 and some $3000.00 and up. While at the same time I coud jusr buy a 100 watt AVR. Watts are not everything.

Please do not take what I am about to say as snobbery, but I found that it is much easier to differentiate great amps with better speakers. My older Polk RT16's were my first speakers and I liked them a lot. But as I went further into the hobby, I found that changing amps with them yeilded marginal results. Nothing I fed them, no matter how good, could correct what was not there in the first place.

All things should be equal, but Synergy plays a huge part. More than we realize sometimes.
V

cfrizz

LOL! On this, we can definately agree!:D

heiney9 wrote: »

There are so many variables to consider whne trying to answer a simple question as has been posed in this thread.H9

zombie boy 2000

I still can't get over the inherent irony of Ms. Frizz's love of more, more, MORE power, while all of us "manly, manly men" wax poetic over 2wpc flea-driven tinkertoys:D

cfrizz

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!:D Me either ZB!:D

May be it's because you "manly, manly men" can afford them & I can't!:D

zombie boy 2000 wrote: »

I still can't get over the inherent irony of Ms. Frizz's love of more, more, MORE power, while all of us "manly, manly men" wax poetic over 2wpc flea-driven tinkertoys:D

heiney9

Irony in it's purest form .

Don't get me wrong I'd love to have a 200 watt Class A single ended amp at my disposal but the energy consumed and dissipated when just idling would be enormous. Pass Labs made a pair of X-1000 mono's which were like this but they were as expensive as most cars and consumed a hella amount of energy from the wall socket. Very impractical, but certainly the epitomy of manly amps.

H9

zombie boy 2000

200 watts of pure Class A...
well maybe you could offset the outrageous cost by not ever having to turn on your heat during the winter.

At least, that would would be the first thing noted during my bullet-point presentation outlining to my wife why we "need" this amp.

hearingimpared

zombie boy 2000 wrote: »

I still can't get over the inherent irony of Ms. Frizz's love of more, more, MORE power, while all of us "manly, manly men" wax poetic over 2wpc flea-driven tinkertoys:D

That's easy. . . she loves rippled six packs, we love one big belly!:D

jakelm

I have a question for you all. Lets take a sub amp (because its easier to disect),

Watt = Amps x Volts, right?

Ok, we feed our amps with 115 volts (here un USA). The fuse is 5 amps.

1. Does this mean the amp has to drain over 500watts before the fuse will blow?

2. Is the fuse an indication of how pwerfull the amp is?

3. Is there a calculation you can apply for the amount of wattage being used or outputted, if you keep blowing 2 or 3 amp fuses, but there is nothing wrong with the amp?

4. Does this mean the amp was drawing over 200 - 300 watts?

5. Is that an indication of how many watts it was outputting?

Just a few questions.

Jake

cfrizz

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!:D Thank God I wasn't drinking anything at the time!:eek:

hearingimpared wrote: »

That's easy. . . she loves rippled six packs, we love one big belly!:D

heiney9

jakelm wrote: »

I have a question for you all. Lets take a sub amp (because its easier to disect),

Watt = Amps x Volts, right?

Ok, we feed our amps with 115 volts (here un USA). The fuse is 5 amps.

1. Does this mean the amp has to drain over 500watts before the fuse will blow?

2. Is the fuse an indication of how pwerfull the amp is?

3. Is there a calculation you can apply for the amount of wattage being used or outputted, if you keep blowing 2 or 3 amp fuses, but there is nothing wrong with the amp?

4. Does this mean the amp was drawing over 200 - 300 watts?

5. Is that an indication of how many watts it was outputting?

Just a few questions.

Jake

The scope of you question(s) is way beyond what I'm willing to type. Get your Google on and spend a few days reading to get really solid answers to your questions.

heiney9

jakelm wrote: »

I have a question for you all. Lets take a sub amp (because its easier to disect),

Watt = Amps x Volts, right?

Ok, we feed our amps with 115 volts (here un USA). The fuse is 5 amps.

1. Does this mean the amp has to drain over 500watts before the fuse will blow?

2. Is the fuse an indication of how pwerfull the amp is?

3. Is there a calculation you can apply for the amount of wattage being used or outputted, if you keep blowing 2 or 3 amp fuses, but there is nothing wrong with the amp?

4. Does this mean the amp was drawing over 200 - 300 watts?

5. Is that an indication of how many watts it was outputting?

Just a few questions.

Jake

1) NO

2) YES

3) NO

4) DEPENDS

5) PROBABLY NOT.

Is this a line fuse or a rail fuse?

jakelm

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm


Is that your final answer?

Line fuse.

But lets put it in the aspect of an inline fuse with speaker output and/or inline with ac power.

heiney9

Problem here is that yes Ohm's law does apply in theory. But when playing a musical signal Ohm's law is of little help. For Ohm's law to give you any real world solution all the components of the formula have to be constant, which they aren't when dealing with a musica signal.

If you are blowing line fuses there is a problem somewhere. It can happen if you over drive the amp but usually the rail fuses will go first in that scenario. Without knowing the design of the amp it's very hard to even generalize.

Could be a bridge rectifier or a muting diode or a soft start circuit. No way to know for sure until by stesting you start the process of elimination.

H9

jakelm

heiney9 wrote: »

1) NO

2) YES

3) NO

4) DEPENDS

5) PROBABLY NOT.

Is this a line fuse or a rail fuse?

1. 5 amps x 115 volts = 575 watts

So if the amp is drawing 115 volts and there is a 5 amp fuse inline, then the wattage would be up to 575, correct?

If lower, then its safe. If higher than its blown correct?

2. So an amp with a rated lower (lets say) 2 or 3 amp fuse, is less pwerfull, in terms of wattage output?

3. You put it pretty straight forward.

4. Kind of retorical to question 1. But I understand your confusion on this question. Skip over it.

5. So there is no way in telling about how many watts an amp can produce by the size fuse and current draw from the outlet?


Thanks H9

jakelm

heiney9 wrote: »

Problem here is that yes Ohm's law does apply in theory. But when playing a musical signal Ohm's law is of little help. For Ohm's law to give you any real world solution all the components of the formula have to be constant, which they aren't when dealing with a musica signal.

If you are blowing line fuses there is a problem somewhere. It can happen if you over drive the amp but usually the rail fuses will go first in that scenario. Without knowing the design of the amp it's very hard to even generalize.

Could be a bridge rectifier or a muting diode or a soft start circuit. No way to know for sure until by stesting you start the process of elimination.

H9

I know this is a question for google, but I'll ask anyway...lol

How does a manufacture come up with the size fuse? The fuse size has to be some sort of indication of how many amps and volts the amp can produce.

An amp that dimms the lights when turned on has to have more wattage than one that has a 1 amp fuse.

I agree that Ohm's law is not constent here, but but when we are talking amps and volts, resistance should not come into play.

MGPK

It's not how many watts an amp can put out, it's how well it can do 1 watt.

Gaara

Wouldn't this all depend on the fuse type to, slo or fast blo? I assume a slo-blo could have peaks over the rated amount while a fast couldn't.

heiney9

jakelm wrote: »

1. 5 amps x 115 volts = 575 watts

So if the amp is drawing 115 volts and there is a 5 amp fuse inline, then the wattage would be up to 575, correct?

If lower, then its safe. If higher than its blown correct?

2. So an amp with a rated lower (lets say) 2 or 3 amp fuse, is less pwerfull, in terms of wattage output?

3. You put it pretty straight forward.

4. Kind of retorical to question 1. But I understand your confusion on this question. Skip over it.

5. So there is no way in telling about how many watts an amp can produce by the size fuse and current draw from the outlet?


Thanks H9

Ok let's see if I can make some sense here. The power coming out of your wall is AC. The rectifiers in the amp turn that AC into DC and in a sense is regenerated in the PS. The power supply feeds the power rails and in a sense it steps down the AC voltage that's coming in depedning on how many output devises there are and allt he other power stages that need to be operated in the amplifer. There is also some loss. So to answer the first no your supply rails are no seeing anywhere close to the 110 volts coming out of the wall.

2) NOT neccesarily.

3) It's not straight forward at all but I'm trying to keep it simple

4)

5) No; if you know the rating of the rails you can figure what the ultimate output in watts will be, but again that real world thing comes into play. How do you measure the current draw from the outlet? All outlets in the US are std. voltage. The rating on the back of the tag by the power cord is simply a UL mandated max power consumption rating. Just because it consumes 500watts from the outlet doesn't mean all that power is converted to output? Make sense? Power amps by their nature are not very effecient much like an internal combustion engine.

H9

bikezappa

JimBRICK wrote: »

Ok I need some people to clarify this for me.

How important is having high wattage output for speakers as far as clarity is concerned. I'll give you an example of what I mean.

You have a set of speakers rated 8 ohms and manufacturer says best with 50 watts-200watts of power.

If I have 2 amps, one rated 100 watts per channel and one 200 watts per channel. Will using the 200 wpc amp make the speaker sound better than the 100 wpc amp Or does the wattage just effect how loud the speaker will play?



The wattage will effect how loud the speaker will play with the rated distortion and other specifications. If a manufacturer has two amps that are identical with "all" specs except wattage then they will sound the same at lower volumes they will start to sound different the louder you play them.

Watt is a term to define power W=current times voltage or W=IE to you speaker. It's like the unit weight. Ten pounds of feathers = 10 pounds of rocks. 10 watts with a tube amp is the same as 10 watts with a transister amp if all the other specs, distortion, frequency response..., are the same.


Why I ask this is cause I've seen lots of people on here with tube mono and integrated amps with 15-50 watts per channel driving speakers rated up to 150 wpc.

is that 15 watts in the tube as good as the 50 watts on the solid state?

Yes if you are only using 15 watts of the transistor and tube amp. They would sound the same if the other specs are the same. That maybe a big IF however.

A watt is a watt is a watt. Tell that to the electric company when you pay the bill.

jakelm

heiney9 wrote: »

Ok let's see if I can make some sense here. The power coming out of your wall is AC. The rectifiers in the amp turn that AC into DC and in a sense is regenerated in the PS. The power supply feeds the power rails and in a sense it steps down the AC voltage that's coming in depedning on how many output devises there are and allt he other power stages that need to be operated in the amplifer. There is also some loss. So to answer the first no your supply rails are no seeing anywhere close to the 110 volts coming out of the wall.

2) NOT neccesarily.

3) It's not straight forward at all but I'm trying to keep it simple

4)

5) No; if you know the rating of the rails you can figure what the ultimate output in watts will be, but again that real world thing comes into play. How do you measure the current draw from the outlet? All outlets in the US are std. voltage. The rating on the back of the tag by the power cord is simply a UL mandated max power consumption rating. Just because it consumes 500watts from the outlet doesn't mean all that power is converted to output? Make sense? Power amps by their nature are not very effecient much like an internal combustion engine.

H9

I understand now. So alot depends on the power supply. In simple terms the bigger power supply and bigger capacitors, then generally the more wattage you get out of the amp.

No , I know that just because its drawing 500 watts from the wall does mean its outputting 500 watts to the speaker or driver. Alot of wattage gets lost in the ac/dc transition and in heat. But I have always wondered why some amps (lets say a 400 watt amp), why some would have a 5 amp fuse and some have up to 10 amp fuse, but still 400 watts.

heiney9

jakelm wrote: »

I understand now. So alot depends on the power supply. In simple terms the bigger power supply and bigger capacitors, then generally the more wattage you get out of the amp.

No , I know that just because its drawing 500 watts from the wall does mean its outputting 500 watts to the speaker or driver. Alot of wattage gets lost in the ac/dc transition and in heat. But I have always wondered why some amps (lets say a 400 watt amp), why some would have a 5 amp fuse and some have up to 10 amp fuse, but still 400 watts.

The power supply is one of the main determining fators as well as the number and rating of the output devices. A larger line fuse usually means a slightly beefier amp, but if you can dtermine the rating of the line fuses that's a even better indication. However, many amps that have current limiting circuits won't have rail fuses so that number isn't as easy to come by.

For me personally I wouldn't buy an amp that had any sort of current limiting built in because that usually means that the output section or transformer or PS caps aren't up to snuff. A really beefy amp only needs rail fuses and no current limiting scheme. Rail fuses are usually in place for worst case senario's where as current limiting is in place to protect in general use.

Pass Labs Aleph amps are so beefy and well built that you can short them and still not damage them (of course this can't be done indefinitly). They aren't the only ones, but that gives you an idea of what a compormise some other lesser designs can be.

H9

heiney9

Sorry about my poor typing. I'm at work trying to do more one thing at a time and proofing my posts is not one of them