another wattae question

JimBRICK

Ok I need some people to clarify this for me.

How important is having high wattage output for speakers as far as clarity is concerned. I'll give you an example of what I mean.

You have a set of speakers rated 8 ohms and manufacturer says best with 50 watts-200watts of power.

If I have 2 amps, one rated 100 watts per channel and one 200 watts per channel. Will using the 200 wpc amp make the speaker sound better than the 100 wpc amp Or does the wattage just effect how loud the speaker will play?


Why I ask this is cause I've seen lots of people on here with tube mono and integrated amps with 15-50 watts per channel driving speakers rated up to 150 wpc.

is that 15 watts in the tube as good as the 50 watts on the solid state?

danger boy

tube watts are different than solid state watts. i don't know the difference, someone else here who is into tube amps will though.

if your speaker recommend between 50 and 200watts.. powering them with 45 watts for instance isn't going to make them sound bad necessarily. or powering them with 250watts either..

the more watts you can use for speakers means it will give you that much more headroom. headroom is important for those demanding passages in music or movies. deep thundering bass requires more power/watts/current than does high frequency music. I'm sure it's more complex than that.. but that's how I understand it. yes 200watts is going to sound better, because it has more headroom than 100 watts does.. but that's not to say that 100watts is a low amount. I think alot of people would be surprised just how few watts speakers really need to power them to ear bleeding levels.

to many people get overwhelmed and concerned by watts in amps and speakers.. instead you need to look at the current the amp is capable of.

*if any of this is incorrect, someone please correct me*

danger boy

I have an older Yamaha CA-610II integrated amp.. with the old fashioned analog VU meters.. the amp is rated at 45wpc. at really loud levels it's pushing out between 10 and 25wpc. and this is from a little 45wpc vintage unit.

this Yammie even for a short time powered my SRS's which are 4ohm speakers without overheating. how screwed up is that? a 45wpc amp powering huge SDA SRS"s that can handle as much as 1000watts :eek:

So i never try and get caught up in the watts number game... yes 200watts is going to be better than 100 watts. because it will give you more headroom. headroom to spare.

Think of it this way.. a Toyota car and a Ferrari will both do 100mph, but which one will do it longer and with more ease?

JimBRICK

I understand what you saying, Cause I've said it before. I can care less if its really loud, I want to hear everything. I was watching a concert at work one day on one of our home theaters and there was a part on this concert where 5 different amazing bass player came on stage and did this solo and I thought to myself how much nicer it would have been to actually hear all of these bass guitars individually instead of just a big mess of bass. with a good system I would have heard these bass lines seperated

cfrizz

What I discovered when I went to 200wpc is that there IS greater clarity & better separation. My guess is if you had a 200 wpc amp you would have been able to pick up all 5 bass players separately even as they were playing together.

I still get amazed at hearing tiny details in music that I hadn't heard before. The detail is even more pronounced when you compare a DVD-A or SACD disk compared to a regular cd.

It is because of this extra detail that is evident, that I always recommend 200wpc. The additional volume is just a bonus, but not the most important thing.

danger boy

then, amps aren't what you should be quite so concerned about then.. you need a good decent tube pre amp. that's where you'll hear those individual bass guitars. all amps do for the most part is amplify whatever they are fed.

yes if you want to get technical, they sometimes can color the sound... but it would be tough to distinguish between this brand of amp and another one if they are nearly identical. pre amps on the other hand can have a dramatic affect on sound quality, clarity, soundstage, presence, etc.

cfrizz

If it is in the music then it will come out of the speakers providing the speakers are getting enough power to play them. (and I mean at regular volume.)

As I've said, I still pick up on tiny details in music that I know very well but never heard with just my receiver pushing my speakers or when I just had a 50wpc Rotel amp pushing my speakers.

Will these details stand out even more clearly with a separate pre? SS or Tube? I don't know. I'm pretty happy with the details that I'm getting right now with my 200-400wpc amps I have had in my system over the last 2-3 yrs.

danger boy wrote: »

then, amps aren't what you should be quite so concerned about then.. you need a good decent tube pre amp. that's where you'll hear those individual bass guitars. all amps do for the most part is amplify whatever they are fed.

yes if you want to get technical, they sometimes can color the sound... but it would be tough to distinguish between this brand of amp and another one if they are nearly identical. pre amps on the other hand can have a dramatic affect on sound quality, clarity, soundstage, presence, etc.

tonyb

Clarity is all about current delivery and your speakers being able to deliver the goods.Can't have one without the other.Every piece of your system plays a role in the sound you hear.As to your question,tube watts,for the most part,are higher current than SS.There are exceptions to the rule.Some SS amps can deliver the watts and current.An 8 ohm speaker is fairly easy to drive so low watts,higher current is right up it's alley.

reeltrouble1

If you want to follow the audio path of clarity I would start with looking at gear made by companies whose basic philosophy is to build neutral sounding equipment with minimum signal degradation.

Off the top
Musical Fidelity
Balanced Audio Technology
Cary
VTL
Conrad Johnson
Manley
Krell

Just to name a few there are just to many these days to include the nearly endless list.

After the gear you still have the Speakers to consider, enjoy and take your time.

RT1

Gaara

I feel like we have covered this a few times...so I will give a shortened version of my usual opinion.

I personally don't feel the need for 200wpc+ amps, just because they are 200wpc. I don't feel that extra power = better clarity, and have experienced many amps that sound just fine with low power. As I right this I am listening to a ~50wpc amp which sounds fantastic.

That being said I feel that the quality of the watts and the type of amp has more of a bearing on the sound then the power rating. Go take a look at stereo mojo's amp shootout...there were plenty of 100wpc+ amps in the mix but the 10wpc amp won. I own a Trends Audio TA-10.1, 10wpc and I have never reached it's limit.

That said all watts are not created equal, which is why tube amps are still alive and kicking. There are plenty of amps that are less then 200wpc that sound phenomenal. If you feel you really need that much power then go for one that has that much power, but don't assume that because it has 200wpc it is going to have more clarity

Jared

P.S. If anyone wants to call me a hypocrite because of the 300wpc Cinenova in my HT go for it, this was chosen because it was the best I could afford at the time, not necessarily because it is 300wpc...and it is currently in my basement while I listen to 100wpc nuforce amps.

engtaz

That would be too easy LOL and everyone is aloud to have a opinion because only he/she nows what they like best.

Dennis Gardner

Its the quality of the parts in the amp that make it sound good, regardless of power ratings.

A 100 wpc receiver will never sound as good pushing 100 watts as a quality built 100 wpc amp. This is because the receiver won't be able to handle the peaks in the music that push it over its 100 watt rating. The amp will handle the peak with its reserve capacitance built in for those peaks.

EQ voicing in receivers/amps is another story...............

Face

I'm sure your 10wpc system sounds nice, but you must not listen to your music very loud.

Dennis Gardner

Another thought to ponder is that a 200 wpc amp will only play 3db louder than the 100 wpc model. Only you can determine if those last 3 db matter.

treitz3

Loudness aside, as Jim was referring to clarity.....I've heard a 35W amp outperform a 450W amp in clarity. That particular gentleman is now "upgrading" to a 18W amp.

Yes, no mis-type, he is going from a 35W amp to a 18W amp and it is an upgrade.

Dennis Gardner

Synergy between lower powered tube amps and easy to drive speakers can be magical..................again, the quality of components allows for great sound at lower power levels and lower listening levels too.

Gaara

I don't listen to crazy levels but I listen relatively loud sometimes. Strangely I have never had a problem with running out of power with the 10wpc Trends but did run into a problem with the 8wpc Super T.

87db efficient speakers at 6ft away with 10wpc should be able to hit 96db easily...pretty loud. This is ignoring peaks in the music but most of what I listen to is so compressed this is really a non issue.

Dennis has a lot of great points, the difference between 25 watts and 50 watts is the same as 100 watts and 200. Synergy is key...what works in my rig may not work for yours.

Face

I guess if you're sitting that close, wattage shouldn't be a problem.

After reading this thread, I paid attention to the meters on my amp while listening to some music. According to the meters on my McIntosh, my usual listening level is around 2.7 watts, 27 if I want it a little loud. I still haven't gone past halfway on my pre.

JimBRICK

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

If you want to follow the audio path of clarity I would start with looking at gear made by companies whose basic philosophy is to build neutral sounding equipment with minimum signal degradation.

Off the top
Musical Fidelity
Balanced Audio Technology
Cary
VTL
Conrad Johnson
Manley
Krell

Just to name a few there are just to many these days to include the nearly endless list.

After the gear you still have the Speakers to consider, enjoy and take your time.

RT1

that is some of the best advice I've ever been given on here thanks

hearingimpared

JimBRICK wrote: »

that is some of the best advice I've ever been given on here thanks

. . . and the most expensive!

Quality wattage is the key, remember Max Headroom? well it still applies. Good, clean, high current, sand amps will give you the magic just as much as the good clean low wattage tubes.

JimBRICK

I figure the most cost effective way is to go with a tube preamp and solid state amp

hearingimpared

JimBRICK wrote: »

I figure the most cost effective way is to go with a tube preamp and solid state amp

Jim, I'm looking into that mixture myself. A friend of ours has lent me a rather good VTL preamp to play with but I have to tell you, the Spectral pre I have sounds awesome and it is going to take something spectacular in a tube pre/sand amp to make me retire the Spectral.

I've heard that mixture that would make me change up but it starts around $3200 used, that is for a Musical Fidelity Tri Vista 300. I have a bid in on a Musical Fidelity kW 500 but it is even more expensive.

Gaara

Clarity is also a relative term. I have seen some people refer to clarity as they do neutrality. With this definition components should add nothing and remove nothing, they should only pass the signal unaltered.

Some people consider clarity closeness to music, and musical is different for each person. I feel that many people like tubed pres and sources because it breathes life into music, yet it may or may not be more neutral.

If you wanted the least altered signal I would suggest a passive pre. Passives are purely volume control and alter the sound much less then their active counterparts. If you are looking more for musicality then perhaps a tube-pre would be best.

ben62670

One spec to keep in mind when looking at amps is how many watts they can put out at class A before they go A/B. I personally like heavy amps that have huge transformers, and big caps. I have tried the efficient cool running G types, and to me they really didn't sound good even though they were rated high currant.

mulveling

ben62670 wrote: »

One spec to keep in mind when looking at amps is how many watts they can put out at class A before they go A/B. I personally like heavy amps that have huge transformers, and big caps. I have tried the efficient cool running G types, and to me they really didn't sound good even though they were rated high currant.

Yep, I'm convinced that the Parasound JC1 monos sound sweet because their first 25 watts ran in class A. They were capable of up to 800 Watts into the Legacy Sig III, but I doubt I ever pushed them much above 25 Watts - that should be pretty ridiculously LOUD when the Sig's were putting out 94db on 1 Watt (that translates into > 107db on 25 Watts ).

These days I've really been wanting to give tube amps a try, especially with my new speakers on the way, and I've been looking at amps in the 10 Watts - 80 Watts range. If the JC-1's lose the showdown, they're getting sold It think it's all about having quality Watts, not quantity.

Spacedeckman

Jim, the minute you try to make decisions based on numbers or ratings, you are screwed. A 150 watt Japanese receiver and a 150 watt high end SS amp are not in any way "equal", except in the eyes of the FTC. One is much better at driving speakers, the other one looks just as good on paper. You have to understand what is happening dynamically in the system to really get what is going on, ratings on amplifiers or speakers do little to indicate this, it is a function of designed compatibility and capability. I've got to hit the hay here in a few minutes, but I'll try to spell it out a bit.

Your basic receiver is designed to look good on the FTC power rating tests, with only passing consideration to how the amplifiers in it will interact with speakers. Some are better than others, but in the big picture, they all come up short. People want to buy watts, not an intangible like sound quality. A competently designed amplifier is designed to drive speakers and deal with real world speaker loads. More concern is given to it's abilities as an amplfiier than it's power ratings.

When you try to compare power ratings of two completely differently designed amplifiers as mentioned earlier, it just doesn't work. Trying to figure out how much louder or more dynamic one will be over the other by looking at the specs won't do much for you. Hook up the speakers and take it for a "walk", and you will figure things out quickly.

The laws of physics do apply as well. It takes 10 times the power to double sound output, using comparably built amplifiers. Buying watts to play loud doesn't work well, but buying a better amp to play louder longer does. I have run my current speakers on anywhere from 12 to 600 watts. They are rated for 150 or so watts, and I was running a pair of Bryston 7B monos (600wpc) full tilt into them...the Brystons were starting to compress and soften in the bottom end...I was playing LOUD. I was running out of amplifier at 600watts per. Speakers are fine to this day. The Brystons were in total control of the speakers, tight bass, incredible dynamics, the things only a big powerful amp can do. Not BECAUSE they were rated at 600 watts, because they were able to deliver massive amounts of power to the speakers. They functioned in the real world. They never got thin or bright, they just did their job incredibly well.

Speaker ratings are generally worthless. I worked for a speaker company for a number of years.

Quality over quantity always. A good 50 is better than a crappy 200.

Tubes swing voltage well, but are lean on current. SS should be the opposite, but, if you have a 5 x 100watt receiver that you can pick up with one hand, well, need I say more.

Audio has a built in "invisible" language that most people never catch on to. Notice I used the term 600 watts. The number is pretty meaningless until you put a qualifier on it. When I mentioned Bryston, an audio guy is going to go "oh", and will understand. If I say 125 watt Sony receiver, it means something completely different to an audio guy, but it is understood. That can be hard to understand. Many here can drift from one to the other seamlessly, and it seems like they can be equating the two. It isn't happening.

It's all about sound.

Mark

ben62670

mulveling wrote: »

Yep, I'm convinced that the Parasound JC1 monos sound sweet because their first 25 watts ran in class A. They were capable of up to 800 Watts into the Legacy Sig III, but I doubt I ever pushed them much above 25 Watts - that should be pretty ridiculously LOUD when the Sig's were putting out 94db on 1 Watt (that translates into > 107db on 25 Watts ).

These days I've really been wanting to give tube amps a try, especially with my new speakers on the way, and I've been looking at amps in the 10 Watts - 80 Watts range. If the JC-1's lose the showdown, they're getting sold It think it's all about having quality Watts, not quantity.

25 watts in A:eek: (Ben Drewls....)

daveyg2

High wattage is always preferred to low in 2 ways:

1) Prolongs life of speakers due to low amp clipping at higher volumes.
2) Provides lower distortion when playing due to ease of driver pushing.

With a higher powered amp you will usually get better performance. The amp can be well rated above what the speaker can take, just be careful how much you push them.

Tube power is the same as solidstate power. Its just that tubes have more of a rounded edge to teh sound. Its not as sharp and intrusive as solid state. Solid state tends to be more powerful pound for pound, but has a brighter sound.

heiney9

daveyg2 wrote: »

High wattage is always preferred to low in 2 ways:

1) Prolongs life of speakers due to low amp clipping at higher volumes.
2) Provides lower distortion when playing due to ease of driver pushing.

With a higher powered amp you will usually get better performance. The amp can be well rated above what the speaker can take, just be careful how much you push them.

Tube power is the same as solidstate power. Its just that tubes have more of a rounded edge to teh sound. Its not as sharp and intrusive as solid state. Solid state tends to be more powerful pound for pound, but has a brighter sound.

No not always. Generalizing in audio is a very dangerous thing. I could show you some low wattage Class A amps that would be just the opposite of your statement. They have less wattage, larger caps, output more current have more headroom, less distortion, yada, yada, yada. It also depends on if the amplifier design is a current source or a voltage source as this is where the differences in many tube designs are. Tube power is not the same as SS power.

H9

mulveling

daveyg2 wrote: »

High wattage is always preferred to low in 2 ways:

1) Prolongs life of speakers due to low amp clipping at higher volumes.
2) Provides lower distortion when playing due to ease of driver pushing.

With a higher powered amp you will usually get better performance. The amp can be well rated above what the speaker can take, just be careful how much you push them.

Tube power is the same as solidstate power. Its just that tubes have more of a rounded edge to teh sound. Its not as sharp and intrusive as solid state. Solid state tends to be more powerful pound for pound, but has a brighter sound.

They're not the same. There's a difference in the types of distortion they produce. In particular, tube clipping sounds *vastly* different than transistor clipping, though there are also differences in their normal-level distortions as well (even-order vs odd-order harmonic distortion). You can build a bright tube amp as surely as you can make a dark & murky SS amp. Both good SS and good tubes can have CLEAN edges - NOT etched and grainy like bad SS, not dull like bad tubes. The better SS amps I've heard have a slightly colder tone (many would consider this neutral), the better tube amps have a warmer, more organic tone. I usually prefer the latter. Disclaimer: most of my tubes vs. SS experience is with high-end headphone amps.

Also I'm still not convinced that higher watts in themselves are doing anything for sound quality when you're not using them. Often the big-watt amps will have better build & design, which can definitely contribute to improved sound quality, but having the extra watts available by itself shouldn't improve the sound when you're playing at normal (well below clipping) levels.

I'd be really curious to see what my 400 Watt JC-1's would sound like if they cut off after the first 25 class-A Watts. I bet they'd sound the same at decent levels, and still get moderately loud...that last 375 watts only accounts for the last 12 db.

heiney9

Watts really just equates to output in dB's. You don't need a lot of watts for something to sound good (sorry Cfrizz). Of course taking into account speakers sensitivity, room layout, music choice watts can be an important factor.

Personally I'd take a very simple 2 gain stage 30-40watt single ended class A amp over a 6-8 gain stage class A/B powerhouse amplifier any time any place. Of course if you have a specific need of max dB then a lower wattage amp isn't going to get the job done. But for 95% of consumer use you don't need anything more than the above *if it's a soild design using high quality parts from a manufacturer who know what they are doing and doesn't cut corners*.

H9

P.s. Again there is so much more to this than just a few well placed generalizations. Wattage is but one single component of the entire picture when it comes to amplifiers.

H9