Dedicated Line?

Early B.

This question was buried in another thread, so I'll ask it here --

What is the approximate cost of installing a dedicated 20 amp line? What benefits can be expected? Does a 20 amp line offer more protection? More current? Less line noise? Is there a particular "audiophile quality" wire that should be run for the dedicated line? Is this a simple DIY project or do you need a qualified electrician?

Thanks.

Polk65

Price is negotiable if you have a friend or DIY. Shutting off the mains requires more detail than I will go into here, short of a warning that it can kill you if you don't know what you are doing. You can do this without contacting the power company if you have a main breaker and know what you are doing.

Some benefits are more current, possible better sound if you believe in tweaks, and protection? -- how about more dedicated power into your rig instead of sharing it with your refrigerator. 10 gauge wire on a 20A circuit with a separate ground will reduce noise and yield more current.

Early B.

Another question -- will an electrician/contractor need to cut ionto ceilings and walls to install a dedicated line?

Polk65

The dedicated circuit starts in your circuit box. Usually there are some circuits that are free or can be swapped (while the main breaker switches are off). From the box you will need to route a new set of wires. Sometimes you can gain access from beneath floors or through walls and closets with a drill hole. Removing trim boards along the floor boards and cutting a small hole often allows enough space to fish wires between floors or walls.

Gaara

Where is the listening room located? I ran a 15amp and a 20amp line myself and it was quite easy. I ran it from the basement at the north end of the house to the 2nd floor south end, just ran it through a conduit that was there across the attic and down the wall.

The wire for the 15amp we had lying around as my father is a builder, and for the 20 amp I wanted better quality. Carol was highly recommend when I purchased it so I bought some of 250' of their 10/2 wire cost about $150. I ran the line and had plenty left over so I have made 4 or 5 power cords with all the extras.

Another brand that was highly recommended was JPS Labs but be forwarned, their cable is mighty expensive as 10/2 is $18 a foot.

Polk65 already covered some of the benefits, another is a resistance to voltage drops. As more current is drawn from the line the voltage drops more, and it drops more with higher gauge wires. Using 10 AWG for power means that not only will you have more current to work with, but when the system is going voltage drop will be less drastic.

Jared

Polk65

Almost forgot, NEC and local city codes are in play. If you have a fire and the house burns to dust, your insurance may wave the middle finger. There are benefits but do it right or hire a contractor.

Early B.

Gaara wrote: »

Where is the listening room located?

My den is on the main level, and so is the main circuit box which is about 40 feet away from where I want the dedicated line installed. I have a basement, so maybe the wire can be run there???

Not sure if this matters, but a couple of years ago we ripped out a jacuzzi. Had some heavy duty current flowing to it. The circuit breaker and wire is still there. The jacuzzi's wiring terminates in the enclosed porch behind the den, which is about 10 feet from my audio gear. Anything useful here?

I was thinking of installing Audioquest in-wall cable, which would be much cheaper than the JPS stuff.

dudeinaroom

most if not all jacuzzi are 220 volt systems. If there are 4 wires in there from what I remember you are not supposed to use it for 120 volt applications. Yes you could run it along/threw the floor joist in you basement. Home depot and the likes have wall boxes you can use for retro fitting receptacles. You cut a hole the size of the box, and put it in the hole and tighten down the screws on the sides of the box which pop out a set of "wings" that compress up against the back side of you wall board. You would cut your Hole first, pull off your baseboards and drill a hole down through the wall plate into your basement(works better if you notch the wall board before you drill, your baseboard will cover it back up when you are finished.) From the basement you would run a coat hanger up through the hole in to the wall and out of the hole you cut for your wall box make sure you leave enough in the basement to pull back threw. Next tape your wire to the hanger, an pull it down to the basement. Run it over tho your breaker box. if you already have wires running down from the box you might be able to get luck and be able to fish it threw. IF not this is where you need to be careful. You will have to drill a hole to get the wires to the panel. IF you have to drill a new hole I hope you have a cord less, shut the power off at the main breaker. Now you can do this one of to ways. #1 being the same way I said to drill the hole for the plug, or #2 you could go up from the basement, but you will have no idea if you are going to hit an existing wire. Going with #1 if you cut the wall board so you can see the floor plate, you can usually see if there are any wires in the way. After your hole is drilled, take a pencil and trace a light line on the wall at the bottom lip of your breaker box. Next take off the cover of your breaker box, there might be a gap between the wall board and the bottom of the box, if not you should now have a line on the wall where the bottom of the breaker boxes cover will end. cut an access whole about an inch an a half wide, but no farther down then the line. You will see little circles in the bottom of your breaker box, knock one out. You will also see clamps holding wires in place where they are exiting the box, go get one of these clamps that is the appropriate size for the hole you just knocked out. Take the top part of the clamp and insert is into the hole. Now comes the tricky part. Take the back get a screw driver and some tape. Make a tape loop(stick side out) and put it on the driver(flat head works best) and put the back of the clamp on it(the screw down part) hold it up to the bottom of the clap, and turn the clamp to get it started. Keep turning the clamp until ti is snug, but make sure you the screws on the clamp are facing you so you can tighten them down after you put the wire threw. Now it is time to run the wire if you cut a hole at the baseboard it will be a lot easier, run your wire up from basement just push some threw. Go back up stairs run the hanger from earlier threw the wire clamp at the base board tape the wire to the hanger, shove the wire and hanger behind the wall and pull the hanger up. pull enough wire to reach past the top of the breaker box, tighten down the wire clap. Take the wire and remove the outer insulation. from it(leave the insulation on the individual wires. Next install your new breaker(refer to directions in the box). Hook the black wire to the breaker. the white one with all the other white wires in the box(same side as your breaker,) and the copper with the rest of the coppers(some boxes have these with the white wires). Back to the plug side of things take the black wire and connect it to the terminal labeled hot(if memory serves it should be the gold screw). Connect the white wire to the screw labeled neutral(silver screw) and the copper to the one labeled ground/earth( the green screw.) Make sure before you connect the wires to make a u on the end of the wires so they don't pull out easiest to do with a pair of needle nose pliers. Put the receptacle in the box, screw it down, then screw down the the face plate. Take the cover for you breaker box and remove the plate that corresponds with the position of thenew breaker. Put the cover back on your breaker box, flip on the main breaker, flip on the new breaker( if its not on already). Go grab a lamp and test the plug. If all went well it will light up. if not flip the breakers back off the recheck all of you connections. Make sure you don't have any wire hanging in your basement. you can use wire ties to hold it up, but staples are recommended (do your self a favor and make sure the breaker for your new line is off before you staple)

wingnut4772

I think I paid about $250.00

Early B.

wingnut4772 wrote: »

I think I paid about $250.00

Wing --

Can you provide a few details? How long was wire run? Did you use an electrician? Did he have to cut into ceilings and/or walls? What kind of cable did you use? What benefits did you perceive? Etc...

Thanks.

wingnut4772

At the time I was having my ceiling re-done so it's hard to say. The run was about 50 feet through the beams. He used Romex something or other and it is a tremendous improvement. I wish I had installed more than one. everything runs quieter on the dedicated line. Much clearer. I also have non-dedicated 15amp outlets back there so it's easy to comapre the differences.

polkatese

Brad, I dug up an old thread of mine. Filter the irrelevant chatters, and you will read some good discussions on the subject. I am happy with my spending and results, albeit it was a while ago, and went through gear changes since then. I would voted for electrian to do it, though, he did a clean job on mine.

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8513&highlight=dedicated+outlet

kolyan2k

i am an electrician !

WilliamM2

Early, it's fairly inexpensive if you do it yourself, A 50ft roll of romeex 12/2 is about $40 here (or at least it was last fall), 20 amp outlet $3.50, box $1.50, wall plate $1, wire staples $1, and a new breaker $7. Total cost $54. I did mine last fall when adding an addition and a garage to the house, so I already had all the wire and permits, two circuits added less than $20 to my costs.

It's very simple wiring, but if you have never done it before, get help from someone who has.

Almost forgot, NEC and local city codes are in play. If you have a fire and the house burns to dust, your insurance may wave the middle finger. There are benefits but do it right or hire a contractor.

Although legally he does need to get a permit, but if he didn't, how is the insurance company going to know he installed the wire? I know my house had two previous owners.

unc2701

The permit thing varies from state to state and within locality. Call your county's inspection office & they will tell you.

For a single dedicated run, it's fairly easy if you've got a basement (with a drop ceiling) or crawlspace. Use 12/2 or 10/2 and just buy a cheap book on DIY wiring (you're not going to be doing anything difficult). The only caution is when you're putting the breaker in the box. If you're lucky you'll have a mains breaker outside that'll kill everything in the box, but if not, you gotta respect that there's about 200a of 220v power sitting right there waiting for you to brush against it. Forget that for a second and you'll be dead. Make sure you have your wife/ buddy around when you do that part and have them ready with a broomstick to peel you off the panel if something goes wrong.

The benefits are definitely there. I've got a two 20 amp lines and a 15 going to my listening room- one 20a for each amplifier and the 15 for everything else.

kolyan2k

unc2701 wrote: »

The permit thing varies from state to state and within locality. Call your county's inspection office & they will tell you.

For a single dedicated run, it's fairly easy if you've got a basement (with a drop ceiling) or crawlspace. Use 12/2 or 10/2 and just buy a cheap book on DIY wiring (you're not going to be doing anything difficult). The only caution is when you're putting the breaker in the box. If you're lucky you'll have a mains breaker outside that'll kill everything in the box, but if not, you gotta respect that there's about 200a of 220v power sitting right there waiting for you to brush against it. Forget that for a second and you'll be dead. Make sure you have your wife/ buddy around when you do that part and have them ready with a broomstick to peel you off the panel if something goes wrong.

The benefits are definitely there. I've got a two 20 amp lines and a 15 going to my listening room- one 20a for each amplifier and the 15 for everything else.

1. you are not going to be dead if you touch power lines inside the breaker box. it's just gonna shock you.
2. you most definitely don't need 10/2
3. and you really don't need to pull the permit. p.s. if you hire an electrician it will cost you much more WITH the permit. (i would charge just $200 for a permit)
4. you MUST hire an electrician if you don't know what you are doing. Most DIY people do a really sh1tty job compared to a professional electrician

Early B.

kolyan2k wrote: »

i am an electrician !

About how much would you charge for this job? I want to know what it costs before I approach an electrician who may try and **** me. By the way, I'm gonna buy my own wire, outlets, etc., so I'm only interested in labor costs.

Thanks.

ben62670

I was an electrician for a number of years. Have a pro do it. With a basement it shouldn't be more than $250 total. It is almost all labor. What I would do if I were you is have them run 12/3 wire. It will share the same ground, and neutral. You will end up with 2 20amp circuits for your AV, and only adds $40 or so to the total cost. I like to plug my amps directly into the wall, and you could easily have them install a 4 gang box which would give you 4 plugs per circuit 8 total.

WilliamM2

I'm sure it depends on the area, but around here, $65 an hour, and the electrician will want to supply the wire, outlets, etc. After all, it's a pretty small job, and they want to make something for their trouble.

And if you hire an electrician, you will have to get a permit, most are not willing to risk ther license to save you some cash. When I got my permits last year, it was $100 for the permit, and $12 for each circuit. Since it was an addition that must be inspected, I had no choice, but I would not pay $112 for a permit for one outlet.

Willow

This is all good info as I will have an friend (electrician) install a 20amp in my HT room. It won't be an issue as the laundry room is behind the HT room and the breaker box is there. But all of this is great info.

SCompRacer

You can DIY but it will require some research. A local pro will know code. Local code will determine if you have to pipe it (conduit) or run NM (non-metallic, romex). Generally, code requires pipe for exposed wiring and non metallic if enclosed in walls or in attics. There are box fill and pipe fill limits. Check this post. If your only running three wires you shouldn't have a problem.

Circuit capacity depends on what you intend to connect to it. A 15 amp circuit provides 1800 watts while a 20 amp circuit 2400 watts. Breakers usually trip before their rating, so if you go by the 80% loading rule, a 15 amp circuit gives you 1,440 watts, a 20 amp will give you 1,920 watts.

I piped my two channel using a 12 gauge dedicated 20 amp redundant ground circuit. Nothing else is on the circuit. If a pipe connection loosens, I still have a solid ground connection with a third wire. Beneifts, yes, there can be. It also depends on who did your existing wiring. Wires daisy chained over numerous outlets can have loose connections. Ground wires might be attached with spring clips to the metal boxes, not screwed. The only grounds the outlets may have are through the mounting screws that attach the yoke (the mounting frame around an outlet/switch) to the box, not a wire from the outlet yoke to the box. In my case, when I added the two solid state amps, I could pop a 15 amp breaker at over 100dB SPL.

kolyan2k

ben62670 wrote: »

I was an electrician for a number of years. Have a pro do it. With a basement it shouldn't be more than $250 total. It is almost all labor. What I would do if I were you is have them run 12/3 wire. It will share the same ground, and neutral. You will end up with 2 20amp circuits for your AV, and only adds $40 or so to the total cost. I like to plug my amps directly into the wall, and you could easily have them install a 4 gang box which would give you 4 plugs per circuit 8 total.

yes. this is a good advice.

and if i understand correctly and there is no wire snaking involved. with unfinished basement $200-250 sounds about right. for a small job expect to pay about $100 per hour. and there is NO way i would want to pull a permit for this type of job here in MA. Permit = you pay more and it's also a pain in the azz for electrician.

SCompRacer

ben62670 wrote: »

It will share the same ground, and neutral.

The DIY must remember to share a neutral, the two hots must be on a different 120 volt bus. Rule of thumb to share a neutral, breakers under one another, never across from one another. Breakers across from one another put the hots on the same bus or phase, so the neutral will see all the amperage from the combined circuits and it could fry if the loading were high enough. Breakers on a different bus or phase, the neutral only sees the load from each circuit.

Early B.

OK, you guys talked me into it. I'll try it eventually once I amass a couple of hundred extra bucks to throw at it.

There's no way in hell I'm even gonna consider DIY. I'll get a "friend of a friend" who's an electrician to do the work. I'm still gonna buy my own cable. I want better quality than the Home Depot stuff.

I'll check into the PS Audio Soloist In-Wall Power Conditioner as well.

kolyan2k

Early B. wrote: »

OK, you guys talked me into it. I'll try it eventually once I amass a couple of hundred extra bucks to throw at it.

There's no way in hell I'm even gonna consider DIY. I'll get a "friend of a friend" who's an electrician to do the work. I'm still gonna buy my own cable. I want better quality than the Home Depot stuff.

I'll check into the PS Audio Soloist In-Wall Power Conditioner as well.

there is no better quality in the World when it comes to electrical wiring. for your needs it's either 14 AWG (15 amp) cable or 12 AWG (20 amp) cable and even though by electrical code it does matter, in real life it pretty much does NOT (by over loading 14 AWG wire with 20-30 amps, it will just heat up a little bit and nothing more). so Home Depot stuff is the best you can get. and if you tell any electrician out there that you want a better quality electrical cable, he will laugh.....

Early B.

kolyan2k wrote: »

there is no better quality in the World when it comes to electrical wiring. for your needs it's either 14 AWG (15 amp) cable or 12 AWG (20 amp) cable and even though by electrical code it does matter, in real life it pretty much does NOT (by over loading 14 AWG wire with 20-30 amps, it will just heat up a little bit and nothing more). so Home Depot stuff is the best you can get. and if you tell any electrician out there that you want a better quality electrical cable, he will laugh.....

Uh-huh.

If you tell any audiophile out there that Home Depot speaker cables are the best you can get, he will laugh...

See the problem here?

kolyan2k

Early B. wrote: »

Uh-huh.

If you tell any audiophile out there that Home Depot speaker cables are the best you can get, he will laugh...

See the problem here?

audio cables and video cable can be different. there is noise (especially form electrical cables) to deal with. and after that its the same......distance, wire gauge, and tight connection. silver is the best, but its expensive, so everyone uses copper. to reduce the noise, shields are used and wires are twisted. this is as far as it can go.

kolyan2k

look at this website, at "The Hot Box" and its price. its made of Home Depot stuff, it costs about $10-$15 dollars to make and will take any electrician about 10-20 minutes to make. = rip off

http://www.vhaudio.com/powerstrips.html

p.s. if you don't trust me, ask any other electrician. internet and forums can trick me in networks, audio, and maybe video, but when it come to my field of work.......sorry no. i've been doing it for 10 years now.

Serendipity

I have three 20A circuits run directly off a 50A subpanel in my home. For this application, I would also recommend 10AWG wire.

kolyan2k

appadv wrote: »

I have three 20A circuits run directly off a 50A subpanel in my home. For this application, I would also recommend 10AWG wire.

wall outlets are NOT designed for 10 AWG cable. if inspector sees this type of job done, he would be pretty skeptical about accepting the job. 10 AWG wire is for electrical Dryers, Dual-fuel stoves, AC units etc. that use up to 30 amps and connect to special outlets. so unless you are planning on connecting a dryer next to your home theater, 10 AWG is a wrong wire to use.

MikeC78

kolyan2k wrote: »

wall outlets are NOT designed for 10 AWG cable. if inspector sees this type of job done, he would be pretty skeptical about accepting the job. 10 AWG wire is for electrical Dryers, Dual-fuel stoves, AC units etc. that use up to 30 amps and connect to special outlets. so unless you are planning on connecting a dryer next to your home theater, 10 AWG is a wrong wire to use.

I wouldn't say 10awg is the wrong wire to use. You can buy some HD 20 amp outlets that accept 10awg just fine. 10awg is more for 30amp circuits, but it is acceptable to use on 20 amps too.

BTW, I'm not a electrician. My father is, has been for over 35 yrs. He wired two dedicated 20 amp circuits for my HT with 10/2.