GM is now the #2 automaker.....

TroyD

Here is a pretty good analysis of the woes of GM and the American auto industry.......

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/Extra/HellFreezesOverGMFadestoNo2.aspx

BDT

VR3

Dun Dun Dun

I like Toyota.

Serendipity

Not good - there will be quite a few economic effects; already many workers at GM are losing jobs and there are issues with healthcare.

But on the bright side Toyota is employing more and more workers.

VR3

Maybe this will make Ford, Chevy, GM, Dodge produce alot better product other than what they have been.

Knowwhatuhmean?

Serendipity

I believe Ford, GM, Chevy, and Dodge do produce great products. I think the Japanese cars are overrated. However, I've never owned a non-Japanese car.

I mean, how can you keep up in the market if you don't produce a good enough product?

disneyjoe7

They sat back and watched them Toyota and Honda build better cars for years. And we are surprised about GM being #2?

Serendipity

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

They sat back and watched them Toyota and Honda build better cars for years. And we are surprised about GM being #2?

Hmm, GM owns Chevrolet, Hummer, Saab, Oldsmobile, Buick, Cadillac, Saturn, and a few more I can't recall...

Toyota owns Lexus, Toyota, and Scion...

If any one of the GM brands does not sell well, won't the losses be covered by their other leading brands in the marketplace?

RuSsMaN

Toyota's business model is being followed by a lot of companies, just not automakers. Check out THE TOYOTA WAY By: Jeffrey K Liker, a great read, and not just for auto or business nerds.

Cheers,
Russ

madmax

I was a ford guy for several years and turned into a chevy guy for the rest. After 30 years as a faithful buyer, a family full of GM workers and ford enthusiasts and a real lust for chevy performance vehicles I finally decided enough is enough. When I switch you know something is wrong. Man, Toyota is kicking their a$$.
madmax

disneyjoe7

appadv wrote: »

Hmm, GM owns Chevrolet, Hummer, Saab, Oldsmobile, Buick, Cadillac, Saturn, and a few more I can't recall...

Toyota owns Lexus, Toyota, and Scion...

If any one of the GM brands does not sell well, won't the losses be covered by their other leading brands in the marketplace?

Sorry I maybe wrong but my thinking is GM numbers are everything you posted all makers. Same goes for Toyota, but still feel yes Toyota is winning.



GM will sell you the car to sell you the part. Toyota and or Honda will sell you the car to show your neighbor it's still running 10 years later, and then when they ask what you have done to it your reply maybe like this... Oh yes I replaced the exhaust system, and the battery once.

dorokusai

I love my new GM and my old Audi...Toyota who?

fatchowmein

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

Toyota and or Honda will sell you the car to show your neighbor it's still running 10 years later, and then when they ask what you have done to it your reply maybe like this... Oh yes I replaced the exhaust system, and the battery once.

Mom's Corolla. Water pump and battery. 15 years.

VR3

Moms corolla.

Nothing - NOT EVEN MAINTENCE!! HAHA 10 years

Serendipity

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote: »

Moms corolla.

Nothing - NOT EVEN MAINTENCE!! HAHA 10 years

Amazing. Those Toyotas are built like a tank!

On the other hand,

Moms Nissan...everything goes wrong.

MillerLiteScott

Just don't follow Toyota's F1 model. It is ultra expensive and stinks.

MacLeod

Coming from a union family I hate to say this, but the unions are the ones putting the big 3 out of business.

I read a while back that GM has more resources tied up in managing their pension program than in building cars!!!!!

Tack on to that, the lack of build quality the big 3 had for so many years and although their stuff is considerably much better, you have to only test drive a Ford Focus then go next door and go for a spin in a Honda Civic to notice the vast difference in quality. Then when you tack on the fact that the Focus was most likely built in Mexico while the Civic was built in Ohio.....

shepx2

I grew up near the GM plant in Ohio that used to build the cavalier, sunfire, etc. You never used to see foreign cars around there. Now, they are about the same in numbers.

I bought my last US vehicle in my Chrysler Town and Country. Had more problems with it in 2 years than I did my Civic, nissan altima, or mazda tribute (half of a ford I guess) over 8 years combined.

My first car (1992) was a 1982 Honda prelude. Sold it to a friend of mine at 170k miles. He went to school in Minnesota, drove it till it was over 270k miles, with zero problems. And it always started in the cold. He totalled it in a blizzard, or he would have continued going over 300k i bet.

If a cavalier or such from GM/ford from that year was driven for that many miles, it would have needed to be held together by duct tape.

mrbigbluelight

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

GM will sell you the car to sell you the part. Toyota and or Honda will sell you the car to show your neighbor it's still running 10 years later, and then when they ask what you have done to it your reply maybe like this... Oh yes I replaced the exhaust system, and the battery once.

That is, IMO, a very accurate and perceptive observation.

Blame it on labor, if you will, and you'd be right.
Blame it on management, if you will, and you'd be right.

Both groups had managers, but both groups needed leaders as the times changed.


As a suggestion, keep an eye on Ford.
Alan Mulally came from Boeing, a company that has union labor to contend with yet was able, and is able, to put out a product like the "Dreamliner"
(787) while battling the massively Government-subsidized European competitor, Airbus.

Working with a unionized workforce can be done. It takes LEADERS on both sides to make the formula work.

A big cost factor in the cost of operating in a union operation is the TOTAL cost of compensation. The biggest growing slice of that pie is not wages, but the cost of health care.

If that cost were brought under control, than everyone would benefit.

As I've said, the ENTIRE American automobile industry only need to look in the mirror to find the culprits to their downslide.

rskarvan

What about the $1500 per vehicle economic trade-benefit that goes to Asia because of unfair currency manipulations? What about the fact the big three are supporting more retireee's than active workers and the Toyota's/Honda's/Hyundai's don't have to address this issue? What about the fact that all these new foreign assembly plants pay ZERO property tax because of the huge tax abatements that were given to them to locate to the state? What about the fact that these companies are mostly located in the south where it is historically difficult for labor to organize (for any industry). What about the fact that all the profits from the foreign companies go directly to their home country? Lastly, what about the fact that my Grandfather fought in combat in WWII because Japan surprise attacked Pearl Harbor?

amulford

mrbigbluelight wrote: »

Working with a unionized workforce can be done. It takes LEADERS on both sides to make the formula work.

A big cost factor in the cost of operating in a union operation is the TOTAL cost of compensation. The biggest growing slice of that pie is not wages, but the cost of health care.

If that cost were brought under control, than everyone would benefit.

As I've said, the ENTIRE American automobile industry only need to look in the mirror to find the culprits to their downslide.

Absolutely. If health care and insurance costs are not brought under control in this country soon, you are going to see a catastrophic economic collapse. Across the board.

What about the $1500 per vehicle economic trade-benefit that goes to Asia because of unfair currency manipulations? What about the fact the big three are supporting more retireee's than active workers and the Toyota's/Honda's/Hyundai's don't have to address this issue? What about the fact that all these new foreign assembly plants pay ZERO property tax because of the huge tax abatements that were given to them to locate to the state? What about the fact that these companies are mostly located in the south where it is historically difficult for labor to organize (for any industry). What about the fact that all the profits from the foreign companies go directly to their home country?

Ron - Your absolutely right. And for THAT you can blame your elected government which depends on corporate "donation" to fund their campaigns.

opus

mrbigbluelight wrote: »

Both groups had managers, but both groups needed leaders as the times changed.

Every so often brilliance is exhibited on Club Polk;)

George Grand

This didn't happen overnight. Plenty of warning, and of course a lot of foot dragging by GM.

Who remembers the absolute (almost overnight) destruction of the British sports car industry when Datsun released the 240Z. Wanna buy a hot little Japanese car that always works, or a British piece of crap that'll fail you 4 out of 7 days?

petrym

GM is burdened at both ends - a bureaucratic corporate model and labor force.

Mazeroth

shepx2 wrote: »

I grew up near the GM plant in Ohio that used to build the cavalier, sunfire, etc. You never used to see foreign cars around there. Now, they are about the same in numbers.

Shep, that would be the Lordstown plant, the one my father has worked at for 38 years. If you honestly believe the numbers are about the same then you really, really need to get your eyes checked. I head home 5-6x a year to visit my family and the GM to any other brand ratio up there is at least 2:1; at least. I mean, there are 2 GMs to every other car combined. GM is what is keeping NE Ohio afloat, and as GM slowly moves their operations and downsizes due to lean manufacturing the NE part of Ohio crumbles and crumbles.

Unions were put in place back in the day to give laborers' rights. Through the years Unions have become extremely corrupt but they still serve a good purpose. The folks that build the Civics in Marysville, OH (20 min from me) get paid $10/hour and are contract employees. I know, because one of my closest friends worked there for years. Now, if you land a job in Lordstown at the GM plant you start out making over $20/hour with some of the best benefits in the US, great time off and holidays. That's why their cars are more expensive to build; it's because they actually PAY their employees.

Also, GMAC makes more money for GM than their car division. And did you guys know GM owns over 40% of Toyota's stock? Did you know GM builds Toyotas for other countries? When GM built the Cavalier and Sunfire they used to build the same exact car only they put a Toyota emblem on them and sold them overseas. Pontiac Vibe and Toyota Matrix = same car. Chevy Silverado and Toyota Tundra = same frame. GM and Toyota have been in bed for a LONG, LONG TIME!

WilliamM2

When GM built the Cavalier and Sunfire they used to build the same exact car only they put a Toyota emblem on them and sold them overseas.

Do you have a link to this, or any other info? I know GM and Toyota have several joint ventures, but I find it hard to believe that Toyota would put their name on one of the least reliable cars GM has turned out in recent years.

disneyjoe7

Mazeroth wrote: »

Did you know GM builds Toyotas for other countries? When GM built the Cavalier and Sunfire they used to build the same exact car only they put a Toyota emblem on them and sold them overseas. Pontiac Vibe and Toyota Matrix = same car. Chevy Silverado and Toyota Tundra = same frame. GM and Toyota have been in bed for a LONG, LONG TIME!

Cavalier and Sunfire with Toyota emblem on them? Chevy Silverado and Toyota Tundra = Same frame? GM and Toyota have been in bed for a LONG, LONG, LONG TIME!?


From that statement you know Jack about a car other then the gas gauge. IMHO:rolleyes:

sucks2beme

Detroit execs are out of touch. There's a story of Ross Perot doing a survey to find everything that past Cadillac owners disliked. He sent his findings to the big guys. Their response was to buy Perot out so he would quit bothering them. A couple of years later, a guy dusted off the survey, and used it to pull the division back from the grave.
Not all Japanese auto companies have their act together. Toyota is an
example of what happens when you stick with proven designs, and tweak them to fix weak spots. My biggest complaint with U.S car companies is they often know product weak spots, but don't act:
it might open them up to a class action lawsuit! (yes, they really think this way)

Toyota may shoot themselves in the foot yet. They seem to be on a bigger is better kick. This is the wrong time for this approach.

Plus, I've never bought a Toyota. The reason is their dealers.
They are positively obnoxious. Just like Volkswagon was back in the late 70's.
I went to 3 different dealers over the last couple of years. I COULD NOT FIND OUT THE PRICE OF THE DAMN CAR! They showed me the glove box, the air cleaner, the seats, etc. I told the last salesman, my son was a damn Toyota and Lexus mechanic, and he could tell me all about the car without effin up the description. JUST GIVE ME A PRICE. We have some good incentives right now. OK, what are they. Manager appears. Same run-around. You have to write up an offer and run a credit check to find out the price. I left.
I have Ford X-plan through work. I went into the Mercury dealer picked one out, they jotted down the price and incentives, I signed. Wife got a great deal on her Mountaineer. No pressure, no ****, the deal and the car were done in about 30 minutes- drove it home.
I know most people don't have this option, but for me, anythings better than being treated like a moron at Toyota. I've had some good and bad dealers, but the Mercury guy has done the deal better than any, even on my first one before I had X-plan. Is the Toyota trouble free? Yes. Is it hassle free? NO
Sorry for the rant.:mad:

Mazeroth

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

Cavalier and Sunfire with Toyota emblem on them? Chevy Silverado and Toyota Tundra = Same frame? GM and Toyota have been in bed for a LONG, LONG, LONG TIME!?


From that statement you know Jack about a car other then the gas gauge. IMHO:rolleyes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Cavalier#Toyota_Cavalier

http://www.bestwebbuys.com/Toyota_Corolla_&_Geo/Chevrolet_Prizm_Automotive_Repair_Manual-ISBN_1563924552.html?isrc=b-search

Wow. That took me about six seconds to find with Google. Shall I continue? :rolleyes:

disneyjoe7

Mazeroth,

No offense but seriously you must be a numbers guy it's ok I'm not. I get my hands dirty, I know what makes a car go sorry GM isn't Toyota, GM parts aren't Toyota parts.

Mazeroth

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

Mazeroth,

No offense but seriously you must be a numbers guy it's ok I'm not. I get my hands dirty, I know what makes a car go sorry GM isn't Toyota, GM parts aren't Toyota parts.

My man disneyjoe. My father works in QC at GM (laugh it up, guys!) and is one of their top mechanics. I grew up working with my father on cars and can do pretty much any job out there. Our greatest feat was replacing the 2.8L engine in his 1986 Chevy Celebrity wagon. Saying I don't know anything about cars because I drive GMs is pretty stupid.

I do remember a post I made a few months ago on a topic similar to this. Here's what I said:

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showpost.php?p=560872&postcount=109

Anywho, you guys just keep sending your money out of this country!

shepx2

Shep, that would be the Lordstown plant, the one my father has worked at for 38 years. If you honestly believe the numbers are about the same then you really, really need to get your eyes checked. I head home 5-6x a year to visit my family and the GM to any other brand ratio up there is at least 2:1; at least. I mean, there are 2 GMs to every other car combined. GM is what is keeping NE Ohio afloat, and as GM slowly moves their operations and downsizes due to lean manufacturing the NE part of Ohio crumbles and crumbles.

Well, I hadn't been back to Ohio since 1998 before last year. And IMO there were almost as many foreign cars as GM. Maybe it was my perception, since I was so surprised to see the number of foreign cars there was. I know when I moved, it was probably a 1/20 ratio of foreign/GM.

And the crumbling is why I won't move back there. With no Steel mills or auto plants, there will be nothing left.

Unless Toyota or honda builds a plant to replace it.