New Polks versus Old Polks

RuSsMaN

Originally posted by Aaron
It's pretty much pointless to debate which speaker is generically "better." ...............................

.............................

However, when the speakers aren't close in performance, it is much easier, as is the case with the Amazings.

Aaron

THAT makes sense, you are absolutley right, thanks for setting us all straight. What were we thinking?

TroyD

OK, let me pose this then, and I say this as a matter of discourse, not who's right and who is wrong.....

OK, I agree that reviews written are a great place to start. I'd also agree that no two folks are going to hear things the same. However, in terms of credibility, what is written by the BAS holds a lot of water in my book, moreso that what is written in other publications as they don't accept advertising. Granted, it is an opinion but I think that whoever wrote it, probably has more experience than anyone here on the forum. Does it mean that it is absolute? Certainly not, but, in my book, it carries a good deal of weight. While, I certainly wouldn't dismiss the opinion of someone who's experience with a speaker is fairly limited (point in case, me and the Amazing) I would TEND to be more inclinded to be swayed by the opinion of a seemingly non-biased journal and the opinion of someone who is intimately familiar with said item.

As far as high end.....I'd agree that there is a significant trickle down effect in terms of the lower end beign raised up......however, it is my contention that the true 'high end' being much improved in the last 10 yrs....I don't know if that is true, IMO it's about the rate of diminishing returns. Coupled with the fact that basic speaker design hasn't changed all that much. I'm sure there are improvements but in terms of absolute improvement, my theory is that the gains are not as great as one might think. That's just my theory for what it is worth.

In the end, as I've said before and as Aaron said, there is no 'right' or 'wrong', just opinion.

BDT

burdette

Originally posted by TroyD
He's moving my lips!!!!


BDT

I think the question is.. where is is hand?

TroyD

burdette...

don't make me side step and attack the attack!!

BDT

mantis

TroyD,
you seem to have a beef with the Lsi line....Is it because I own it?Thats how I take it.Whatever I do you just find your own twisted way to down it.............I never kicked anything you own my man.

Those speakers you like so much I have heard other in there lines but not sure I heard your model.I have good resources to get that to go and when I come across them I will give you my Honest opnion of them.

The Carver thing I already have an opnion.....they suck to me.I never liked there amps untill they released the Sunfire Tube amps.They sound pretty damn good.The Carver's of yesteryear I felt lacked punch and strong high's...like the range was cut off at the very top.

But thats ok for you to own what you like.......leave myt **** alone.I just so happen to like what I have and if you have a problem with it,don't beat around the bush,just say what you want and be done with it.

As far as George is conserned,I think he would make a nice add on tho the forum, if he leaves.....he leaves whatever.Id like him to stay.
You on the other hand is another time and placed..........story.

RuSsMaN

blah blah blah blah

TroyD

Dan, I'm certainly not kicking the LSi.......my demo with them was GREAT. Don't misunderstand that....if you think that I was saying that I don't like them, I apologize. They are on the list of speakers that I want.

What I AM saying is that as much as I like them, I think the DQ-10 is a better overall speaker. I has greater presence, much better soundstaging, more transparent ......the LSi, at high volumes has a bit smoother top end and my go a bit deeper in the bass department but I think the DQ rolls off more smoothly.

As far as your Rotel amp? I think, that Rotel is a great company. I don't have much experience with them other than the odd demo but I have never heard anything negative. I do subscribe to the theory that if you can bridge it that it isn't a true dual mono design but I could be wrong and in the end, it doesn't matter.

As far as Carver? Well, certainly your opinion is valid, my experience with Carver doesn't agree with your thoughts, but that's fine.

As far as the DQ-10's are concerned, I'd bet that if you polled 100 true 2ch audiophiles what the best 10 designs of all time were, that the DQ-10 would appear in the vast majority of them.

Anyone that would like to hear them, come on by, you are all welcome.

BDT

mantis

Thats fine dude just wanted to end all this.

The forum doesn't need it if thing's raide up again just e mail me and keep it off the forum..I'll do the same.

TroyD

More to the point Dan, I don't need to do it in private.....I don't have a problem with you or your gear. Period. Point out where I said the LSi's suck, I haven't. Matter of fact Micah can tell you that I was drooling, full on drooling over them

As far as the rest of the petty crap, I haven't attacked you or your gear, plain and simple. I've been (other than some good natured using of your quotes etc.) very cordial and intend to remain that way. Quote where I was rude or whatever, email it to me and I'll post it word for word with an apology.

BDT

TroyD

What the forum doesn't need?

Check the post in OT that starts "We are the Mother******"

That's what the forum doesn't need.

BDT

RuSsMaN

Mental friggin retardation.

Period.

burdette

Maybe this thread has run its course.. but reading through on the stuff about the .. ****.. what was it.. Boston Audio Society? Anyway... as to their 'credibility' and no advertising... I still think any group can have their internal biases.. a consistent 'like' or 'dislike' of something or some style.

When I first got into audio in the early 80s, I'd read about the different 'sounds'.. west coast sound.. east coast... the 'new england' types of loudspeakers... one of the earliest lessons I was taught by my mentors at the time was "regardless of what else you buy, whatever brand, buy *only* American loudspeakers.. Japanese speakers suck and European speakers play only classical music well." That may or may not have been true... but what I wondered about in reading this thread was whether a group like the BAS (or Sterophile mag or whatever) could have a consistent bias for or against some "style" of sound or perhaps against certain companies.. I don't know.. thats why these are questions...

Also, just out of curiosity, do you think there still exists certain "styles" of speakers like west coast or east coast? I don't mean differences like the fact the Cerwin Vega speakers play LOUD and do a decent job on rock/pop/metal... I mean.. do certain companies voice their speakers a certain way that others would find displeasing.. or do you think there is a more consistent desire for 'neutral' that some companies simply do better?

TroyD

I think that each company designs thier speakers, in part by preference of the designer but more prominently by what they believe will sell to thier target audience. Marketing by demographics if you will. I think that sound associated by geographic location isn't as prevalent now as it once was. Purely my opininon though.

BDT

TroyD

I was thinking about something else? Anyone else heard a Sunfire tube amp? I wasn't aware that there was one.

BDT

Aaron

I don't know about an amp, but they do have a 2-channel tube preamp.

Aaron

hoosier21

Its a preamp right?

http://www.sunfire.com/products/index.html

Only seen the reviews at the site and audioreview.

TroyD

yeah, I know about the preamp, but I wasn't aware of a tube power amp.

BDT

hoosier21

Is there one?

shack

I think burdette makes an excellent point. Even the Boston Audio Society has biases. Why would they make these statements since they don't have advertisers to answer to ect... WHY NOT...it is all subjective anyway and who knows what their point of reference is? To them this speaker meets the criteria to make their claims. The only thing a statement from the BAS might do for me is to get me interested to find out more. The BAS holds absolutely no credibility to me because I have no idea who they are. For all I know they could be a bunch of rednecks from Tennessee. I'm not going to buy anything on their recommendation only. I might go listen though.

A good point is that I really want to upgrade to some LSi9s but based on a recomendation from a friend and some things I've read I hope to listen to some B&W DM602 S3 (maybe the entire 600 series 3 line) and DM303s this weekend. Would I buy these or the LSi9s based on rave reviews from anyone without a listen? NO! But I'll give them a listen. Who knows!

TroyD

Shack, I agree with what you are saying. My point is that, not that they are unbiased, but thier opinions are pretty credible. If they were a bunch of crackpots they wouldn't be published at all. The point is that their opinion and that of someone intimately familiar with a product carries more weight with me than the opinion of someone who doesn't have those credentials. Again, I'm not ridiculing anyone or dismissing anyones opinion but let's just say I'd find the opinions of the former more compelling than those of the latter.

BDT

TroyD

hoosier, I don't know.....I wasn't aware of one but Dan said that he never liked Carver products until the release of Sunfire Tube amps. It just made me curious as I didn't even know there were Sunfire Tube amps.

BDT

RuSsMaN

http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/

(tidbit from their welcome letter)

Dear Audiophile:

The Boston Audio Society is a 100% member-supported organization devoted to the exploration and enjoyment of all aspects of audio. For 27 years it has offered informative and thoughtful non-commercial commentary on the audio scene. Some of our contributors have gone on to professional prominence in the audio industry.

More than just a local society, the BAS speaks to the worldwide community of audiophiles. Society members range from the novice enthusiast to the technically sophisticated. All are devotees-- audiophiles in the best sense of the term -- and tend to be technically aware, informed about the marketplace, and keenly interested in the scientific method in a field dominated by myth and hyperbole.

For a sampling, check out the article from Tom Nousaine, for a good read....

http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/bas_speaker/wishful_thinking.htm

Aaron

The thing that gets me is how some people hold this conspiracy theory about Stereophile (and others) and its advertisers. I can see them possibly not ripping up a piece of equipment that wasn't the best, but rather giving it a lukewarm, go-audition-it-for-yourself review. However, I think when they rave about a product, it's genuine. Also, I have a fair amount of faith in their "Recommended Components" list, but obviously I don't take it for the gospel.

Aaron

shack

If they were a bunch of crackpots they wouldn't be published at all.

BDT - you might want to rethink that statement!!!

Aaron

Agreed.

Aaron

burdette

To be clear... I wasn't slamming nor singling out the BAS... my point was and is that regardless of where you are seeking advice, you are well-served by understanding any potential undercurrents or biases of the advice giver. When I was 15 and getting into audio, my mentor thought ill of Japanese speakers, and I took that to heart with nary a critical listen - just never ever again considered any Japanese speakers. I *still* carry that bias, and have never even listened seriously to a Japanese speaker when I was in the market to buy. Hell, maybe Yamaha and Pioneer make some kick-**** loudspeakers... but no one who has ever asked me FOR advice has heard anything except "buy American."

TheOneRod

Bias'

(Bias's... Biases... :rolleyes: ...Bias - plural!)

are almost built into being human, it seems. On the sales floor selling pro audio gear (the stuff that records what's played on home gear) I heard lots of them:

The British sound is dry but accurate.

The American sound it dynamic but colored.

The Canadian ear leans toward bright, almost brittle (RUSH - MOVING PICTURES).

Japanese love the glitchy frills, the POP sound.

Germans love warmth... most of their gear is still tube driven (which COULD be not so bad).

These aren't MY observations. These come from the studio owners and techs. These guys will use these ideas to guide them, and when you're about to plop down $60,000 on that new Soundcraft, Neve, or Yamaha console more than a handful will listen to what they say.

Does that make them right? I don't know. If the musicians don't like what they hear they won't get any business, though.

It's rough on a guy to know what to do. It's input overload.

trubluluc

Well, this post has grown as long as Rip Van Winkles' beard, and strayed a bit, but...
I'll call.
How's about a link or a photo of dem amazing
Amazings?

-Luc

TroyD

check ebay...there are two listings, one for the Silver Edition and one for the Platinum edition. George's are the Platinum MK IV's....60 inch ribbon and (4) 12" woofers.....

BDT

trubluluc

muchos gracias!