New Polks versus Old Polks

TroyD

you know, I've been eyeing this REALLY juicy looking 86 Caprice Classic of late.......

BDT

RuSsMaN

PLEASE don't tell me its gun-metal grey with a black sock waving from the antenna....

Aaron

No Aaron not the cheap models. The EXPENSIVE models.

The Ascent, which is a mid-line model, will handily outperform the Amazings in all categories but bass output. The Amazings have an edge in presence, but that's primarily due to their bass output.

George showed me a review of the Carver Amazing's, from the Boston Audio Society. Now the Boston Audio Society has been listening to, and reviewing equipment, longer than you have been alive. Their findings JUST MIGHT be consistent with the truth, and they don't advertise in their periodical, so the reviews can't be "bought".

One thing to point out is that we're talking about a review which is probably 10+ years old. Also, I'm comparing those speakers to the ones of today which is definitely a disadvantage for the Carver's. Yet another thing to consider is that George is using a Carver separates system and an inexpensive CD player while the systems I've been listening to have much more expensive gear. Again, an unfair advantage.

Bottom line was, " Spend up to $100,000 on the Wilson's, Apogee Diva's, the big Martin-Logans, or the Infinity Reference Standard. Don't think for a minute that by purchasing these you will surpass the Carver's. NOT TRUE! The Carver's are "just as good, a hair better, a hair inferior, but right there at $2,700/pair!"

The bottom line is I've heard better performance in detail, transparency, imaging, and soundstaging from a speaker for $2000. I don't need to spend $100k to surprass the Carver's in every aspect; I could do that for under $20k, and it would be embarrassing.

I'll pass YOUR findings along to the BAS. With all your experience, I'm sure they'll run right out and retract their findings (and watch out for that winged pig).

It is entirely possible that they've updated their opinion in the last 10+ years.....

Aaron

Aaron

I have seen 100-150 pair of used RT-55's in this same time frame.......why are they for sale so often?;)

There are two really good reasons for this. One, Polk's are way more prevelant today than they were in the late '80's and early '90's thanks largely to CC. And two, there are a lot of people that sell the RT/RTi speakers new on eBay.

Aaron

nascarmann

Try reading it again Aaron......

Aaron

Were they really used or just on eBay? The primary reason is the first one, though.

Aaron

Janusch

Aaron,
You also forgot to mention they are Cheap so more people are willing to try them and if they do not like them it is not a big lose to sell them. If you payed more for your speakers, even ten years ago, you would rather keep them then lose that much on your investment

Aaron

Doh! I missed the obvious.

Aaron

TroyD

If the obvious looks like a boat.... yup you missed it! You need to dis-accustom your ears to those world class surrounds you are reknowned for, and start smelling the coffee.

Last time I looked, George had a $1,600 heavily modified cd player. I realize you have expensive tastes (and a beer pocket), but $1,600 is not inexpensive. That is JUST the point I'm trying to make here though. You keep on equating "expensive" equipment, with fantastic performance. This is HARDLY the case, and it's much more fun to find the giant-killers.

You state that some type Martin-Logan's will HANDILY outperform the Amazing's. What access (on a regular basis) do you have to these items that you can make a statement like that? You have Amazing's? Logan's? Or do you try and remember what you've heard on past occasions. We, as humans, have about a 4 hour sonic memory.

The only thing that is enjoying an advantage here, is the voice of experience, and it doesn't sound like yours.

You scrape $20K together, build a home for your Bose.


BDT

TroyD

Of course this is a PURELY opinion based topic but I'll chime in with my 2 cents.......

I reject the notion that just because something is not made in the last couple years, that it is inferior OR because something is of newer vintage, that it has to be better. That, IMO, is flawed logic.

I also believe that the products of Bob Carver, though wildly popular were vastly underrated. I have a threory that may have something to do with the fact that Carver didn't pander golden ear reviewers. Might have something to do with the fact that he proved that these same folks couldn't reliably distinguish between a Carver amp and a Levinson or Rowland amp (I believe it was Levinson or Rowland, I MIGHT remember later) so IMO, I'd also question just how much better the associated electronics effect is.

Further, expressing my opinion in a friendly fashion, is one pair of speakers better than another? Who freakin' cares? If YOU like your rig, that's all that matters, no?

I still say that the Amazings aren't too shabby for dried up ribbons that are almost monophonic due to thier placement. I'll go on record saying that George has got the most impressive rig that I've actually seen and is all the more impressive that it's actually in someones home, not a hifi shop demo room.

BDT

Janusch

I'm a beer loving guy, and the RTI was a better sounding system then the Bose for the same price. Actual was a little cheaper. But if I went out and fell in love with the LSI I would not hasitate to sell them and lose a few hundered dollars. Where as I Bought the LSI and found something better I would be reluctant to loses a thousand.

MxStYlEpOlKmAn

aaron has expensive tastes...he has blose cubes for surrounds...lol

no offense...lol

i think if someone goes out and buys a 5 piece system with a sub and a dorky lookin cd player receiver thing for 3000 dollars..have got to be out of their mind...lol

(after people can read all the reveiws about how the system sounds hollow and it didnt sound good at all in newayz...they still buy it...that makes it worse...lol)

but newayz im sure ur surrounds sound....umm great..lol

mantis

TroyD,
I just want to know .....not arguing your points on the Carvers, but....how many pairs or demo's have you had with them?Do you own a pair?

With that being said...how many pairs of Wilson Watt Puppies have you listened to????
What about Martin Logan..ever hang around with the Prodigies or Monolith's????
What about Dynaudio Evidence Tempations or Confidence c7's????

I read your post and not once you stated you own personal opnion on these extreme speakers......2700 dollar hanging in there with the class above...real hard to believe.

I personally have had many hours listening to all except the Carvers.Do they still make them? Who sells them?Who uses these unbelievable speakers that I have never laid eyes on nor have had any of my clients..which are mostly rich audiophiles,even breathe a word about how good anything from carver is????????

Can you fill a brother in on what he is missing out on??????

mantis

I say eff what

mantis

I say eff what THEY SAY I want to read what YOU SAY!!!!!!!!!

RuSsMaN

Dan, your 'good buddy' George owns Amazings, or did you not know that? You know, the George you said you enjoyed talking to on the 'old forum'......

Cheers,
Russ

George Grand

Girls, girls, girls! Listen up now. Here you go, word for word, from the Journal of the Boston Audio Society:

"The speaker I have admired most is the Sound Lab A-1, a large, full range electrostatic, whose detail and transparency was unmatched until the Carvers."

" ...you are transformed by a listening experience that relegates the (ordinary) stereo world to the dark ages...it is your ticket to listening through to the actual performance-- you are there."

"The detail revealed by the Carver after break-in, is stunning."

"It has a wide soundstage, just right for a large orchestra, but maybe too big for a combo." (nobody said small Aaron, and I also doubt they were using a Hologram Generator).

"What you get with the Amazing is not only the best and least colored bass I have ever heard, but a clarity and stereo localization matched by only a few speakers."

"The Carver Loudspeaker Platinum Edition is my loudspeaker of choice. It can play loudly without strain, and the clarity and transparency are UNMATCHED by most commercially available speakers. It is one of the few loudspeakers I know of that does not require a subwoofer."

Saving the best for last ( and for Dan):

"Consider the most exalted ultrahigh-end loudspeaker systems in the world: the Infinity IRS and IRS Beta, the TOP-OF-THE-LINE Martin-Logans, the Sound Lab A series, the Wilson Audio WAMM, the Thiel CS-5, the Duntech Sovereign, the Apogee Diva, the B&W
Matrix 800, and others in that general bracket. Don't for a moment imagine that any of them is strikingly or overwhelmingly better than the Carver "Amazing Loudspeaker" Platinum Mk.IV, that stepping up to one of them from the Carver is to step into another world. NO WAY. The Carver is right up there--almost as good----better by a hair---not really as good, or what have you, but in there--at $2199 the pair!"

THESE GUYS DON'T DO ADVERTISEMENTS! They have NOTHING TO GAIN BY MAKING THESE STATEMENTS! Does Stereophile (lover of Logans, and Thiels and Wilsons) accept ads? You bet!! They also hated most Polks until their readership nosedived and all of a sudden the 25i was listenable. Go FIGURE!!!


I can't speak with certainty Dan, but I would venture your customers are hardly audiophiles. They sound like the typical "I got a lot of cash and need to flaunt it" club. Audiophiles letting someone else do their installs? I don't think so. You work with nice and expensive equipment. This doesn't mean someone else can't competently design and bring products in for a lot less than what you're installing.


If there is any of the above you guys can't fathom, bug somebody else about it. These things were the steal of the century, and maybe the best audio deal ever. Even at full price (let's not forget I paid $1100 for them, delivered to my door). You guys didn't get in on the audio deal of the century? Tough nuts. Go pay a lot more for a lot less.

While you're doing that, I'll go listen to some of the best speakers ever made. I think I'd rather do that, than listen to people with a limited amount of practical experience take apart the BAS' findings. I know you're an installer Dan. I started collecting hi-fi when I was about 15, started selling hi-fi professionally about 30 yrs ago, and still don't think it makes me an expert. Just a hobbyist.


George Grand (of the Jersey Grand's)

mantis

George that really you???after all this time?????

You still in NJ???

Have you ever made the trip to Soundex?I worked there for awhile Installing,and It was the best audio/video experience on my professional quest.
I have heard some of if not the very best audio has to offer.I regret I never heard the Carver Amazings.I'd like 2.But..........in your entire post(ripping like old times)I didn't read much about how you actually feel and why.I say Eff that read good as it maybe.I don't buy into writing hype.....I buy into what I hear and feel when a system moves me.

I'll tell you what moves me Old friend......A pair of Krell 300 mono blocks running the NEW AND AMAZING Dynaudio Confidence c7's,wired with Transparent.I was so moved by the sound...NOT THE PRICE TAG OR WHAT THE GUYS HAD TO SAY.

As far as my customer then.....god damn right they had tons of cash.......to say none of them aren't audiophiles????you dead wrong!Some of them would come into the store just to hang out and talk audio.Be audio.Love audio as much if not more then the next guy.Some of those rich guys can afford Krell,Wilson Audio and Dynaudio,Mark Levinston and Transparent.

George welcome back to the forum........things have changed a bit.Polk is Polk........hey did you get a chance to listen to the new Polk line??the Lsi's???Like to hear your thoughts if you did.

O the expert thing????Being in sales......maybe true dude.....modest you are......hobbyist we all are my man,Just some of us still make a living on our Hobby.

liv4fam

George reviews are reviews nothing more. Someone elses ears and views on audio, does it make the be all end all?NO! Stereo review said that the LSI 15's were not embarrased by the Dynaudio Evidence Temptations, and I would have to strongly disagree with that statement because I have heard both and it's not fair to compare two things that aren't even in the same universe.

liv4fam

hey grandpa grands I think you need a hearing aid and some real world listening. Stop quotting other peoples **** and think of your own stuff to say and form a real opinion

mantis

it must be the old age.......how can we compete with that????

hoosier21

speachless..Almost

liv4fam you are a child, your only here to cause ****, do you know George Grand? who the hell are you say that ****?

From what I have seen in your posts you KNOW NOTHING. You are a little smartass son of a **** that works at Tweeter, and like all the employees of that company and Circuit City, you don't know ****.

mantis

hoosier21,
do you know liv4fam?he don't know **** huh!!!

I'll tell you what go head to head with him and see who doesn't know ****.

Dude I don't remember anyone ripping on you or did I miss something?

This is nothing that TroyD and Russman have done in here plenty times in the past.

I never met George but in the past have posted back and fourth with him........he's a cool dude from what I remember.That post he wrote needed to be addressed.Poking some fun isn't out of character in here.What you just said makes you just as bad if not worse.

Think alittle before you insult people personally.That post you just made was alittle raw my man!!!

George Grand

Mr. Liv4FAM, and dunderheads such as he, are precisely the reason I avoid this forum. You want a quote there sonny?

"I throw away more good equipment than you'll ever see."

It also dawned on me, that if the stuff I presented was regarding Polk, you'd never question a thing. You'd be throwing dollars at the nearest dealer. But they didn't come from Valhalla, so you guys get bent out of shape.

Don't get on Hoosier, he's only acting like an adult. As far as the age thing, you're right, there's NOTHING you can do about it. All you can do is sit back and wait. And hope that with the age comes a LITTLE wisdom.

It wasn't nice being back.

George Grand (of the Jersey Grand's)

mantis

Come on George all in good fun dude!!!

You can't speak that way for me though.Polk or not Polk speakers,I feel it's just a hard claim to believe without hearing the speakers personally.

Alot of guys around here post more about what they read then what they hear.I expected more from a personal note from you.Don't get mad,It would be nice to post with you again, As I remember correctly,you have alot of experience and could share some of that wisdom you have,Old man or not(LOLOLOL).

By the way if you know a better forum could you fill a brother in??
Dan

TroyD

you know, this REALLY stinks.......It was GREAT having George around. Say what you want but about him (say anything mean about him and Wendi will break your legs!) but George knows his stuff.

Regarding the BAS findings on the Amazings, why would they lie? Riddle me this, they accept no advertising so they can't be bought and they kind of had to figure that what they printed about the Amazings would be scoffed at, so why print it? Maybe because it's true? EFF that 'read' if you want, but I'd put more stock in what they have to say than what any of us have to say here.


I also believe that he is correct about hard core audiophiles letting someone else set up thier rigs. I'd venture to say that a true audiophile would say to a pro installer (no disrespect to them)...'set 'em over there boys and I'll take it from there'
Hence the boxcutter reference.

Opinions are opinions and that is true....but George has been dealing with hifi.....oh, I'd guess, 35 years or so? Hifi salesman, DJ etc etc.....so as far as experience goes, yeah, I'd defer to his opinion. Not to mention, he has been listening to those Amazings, oh, for 10+ years.

As far as gear goes, I'll bet you that George will never bother to hear the LSi's. Why? because the old coot has has, oh, 4 pairs of speaks that I can think of (2 of which aren't even in USE) that I think are better than the LSi's so why would he bother?

Sheesh, you think that Russ and I are disrespectful? Man.....I think George is owed an apology however, I doubt he will be around to read it and that is OUR loss.

Troy

TroyD

To me, the GREATEST tip of the hat to the Amazing is this:

The Lovely Wendi (who not so secretly LUSTS after George) sat in on a demo of the Amazings. Mind you, Wendi could care LESS about audio, and she was totally blown away. Now, she has listened to my rigs countless times and has not even given them a second thought. In fact, she was actually disappointed on our latest visit that she didn't get to listen to them.

Now, IMO, THAT is a testimonial to the Amazings.

BDT

nascarmann

BDT.....I here where your are coming from. I wouldn't waste my breath (fingers) on the "Pro's" anymore.

It's too bad that maybe George was ready to come around again and it took the "Pro's" 5 min. to turn his stomach of this forum again.... :rolleyes:

RuSsMaN

I'm so sick of the friggin **** parade, it used to be amusing, now it just gives me tired head.

Aaron

It's pretty much pointless to debate which speaker is generically "better." Now if we're talking about which speaker is better "to me," then that's a different story. To me, there are much better speakers than the Amazings. That's not to take anything away from them, but the claims that they compare to virtually any speaker at any price is ridiculous from my experience. I would venture to say that they do more things right than most speakers at their price point, but they're still a trade off speaker. Just a random note, I prefer the sound of the Amazings to the SDA SRS-1.2's I heard.

It's true that just because something is expensive doesn't mean that it's good. Was this claim ever asserted? I've listened to many speakers at the $2000 price point, and it blows me away how much difference there is between them. You could take the best speaker at that price point and compare it to some speakers at twice its price. I bet it would outperform some $4000 speakers, but you also have to believe that there is a speaker at that price point that is a steal at its price and can compare to much more expensive speakers, let alone the one at $2000.

It's also true that just because something is newer doesn't mean that it's better. However, it would be naive to think that the state of the art in loudspeakers, or electronics in general, hasn't advanced in the past 10+ years. It seems that the high end is constantly being pushed, and the trickle down technology is reaching the average consumer making affordable speakers even better. My point being, the context of that review versus what I'm listening to today is completely different. I agree with Dan regarding reviews. I feel they are an excellent place to start your search, but in the end it comes down to what you like.

George, maybe the Amazings do image well and throw a decent soundstage, but I'll never hear it in your narrow room. Again, not a knock on your speakers, but they need a wider room. A $1600 CD player? I'll have to take your word on that.

Sonic memory only lasts for 4 hours? I guess it depends on what your definition of sonic memory is. I can describe with good accuracy the sound of the speakers that I've demoed. If two speakers are very close, then I would agree that it would be tough to make a call given a long amount of time between demos. However, when the speakers aren't close in performance, it is much easier, as is the case with the Amazings.

Aaron