H/K's power rating

PolkWannabie

TO,

Is what you are defining as "blew away" in the context of this particular topic ?

TennesseeOutlaw

I suppose I read the post incorrectly.. I was under the impression that the Onkyo was out-preforming the H/K in his opinion, and was wondering why that was.. Being that "everyone" states that H/K very conservatively rates their amplification.. If both of the units were rated the same in power output alone, IMHO, the H/K should BLOW AWAY the Onkyo.. If that isnt a good enough answer to your question I apologize for my ignorance in this matter...

PolkWannabie

No prob and no apology necessary ... I just wanted to ensure we were on the same page.

TennesseeOutlaw

Sure thing:)

jakelm

Well...I dont know.. But I can max my 635 without clipping. And I believe Andy posted his measurements when watching movies, he obviously has alot more head room. I dont think its just because of the speakers.

I know excactly what you mean in terms of algorithmik and linear. I should and do get a quicker increase in dbs (volume) between -20 and -10 than I do between -40 and -30.

Maybe my auto example was a bad example. Maybe I should has explained it in terms of this. 60mph, peddle to the floor or 60mph with peddle 6 inches left to go from the floor. Headroom.

What I would like to do is this. Tonight I will put my ratshack meter 1' from the left main channel and turn up the gain on the AVR till I read 85dbs. 1' should allow for no room gain. And see excactly what setting it is on. If its -15 and some else with similar speaker efficiency has -35 there is something wrong. I shouldnt have to put the level 3/4 of the way up to get the same volume as someone who only has to put it @ 1/4 to 1/2. Especially from 1' away.

heiney9

Ok I think I understand your dilema a bit better. Sorry but all I can add is there is something wrong, perhaps as others have mentioned a setting or something. So you are saying you can turn up the vol all the way to the max and still not clip the signal?

Lowell_M

jakelm wrote:

Well...I dont know.. But I can max my 635 without clipping. And I believe Andy posted his measurements when watching movies, he obviously has alot more head room. I dont think its just because of the speakers.

I know excactly what you mean in terms of algorithmik and linear. I should and do get a quicker increase in dbs (volume) between -20 and -10 than I do between -40 and -30.

Maybe my auto example was a bad example. Maybe I should has explained it in terms of this. 60mph, peddle to the floor or 60mph with peddle 6 inches left to go from the floor. Headroom.

What I would like to do is this. Tonight I will put my ratshack meter 1' from the left main channel and turn up the gain on the AVR till I read 85dbs. 1' should allow for no room gain. And see excactly what setting it is on. If its -15 and some else with similar speaker efficiency has -35 there is something wrong. I shouldnt have to put the level 3/4 of the way up to get the same volume as someone who only has to put it @ 1/4 to 1/2. Especially from 1' away.

I will do the same next week when I get home from my trip (Monterrey, Mexico). Which, by the way, you would assume would be warm, but they have had the coldest weather of the year this week. ...Was 34 F this morning!!!!!!

heiney9

Try running it in a simple two-channel set-up, direct, and then move to multi-channel from there. I'm assuming you are running more than a 2-ch set-up currently. Unhook reset everything to run a L & R only and then proceed from there.

jakelm

heiney9 wrote:

Ok I think I understand your dilema a bit better. Sorry but all I can add is there is something wrong, perhaps as others have mentioned a setting or something. So you are saying you can turn up the vol all the way to the max and still not clip the signal?

I can turn the volume all the way up and get no distortion and if it is clipping, it is so soft I cant tell. I will write my measurement down tonight. Both 2 channel analog and digital 7.1 ex. With pink noise. Both from the center of the room and 1' from left main.

Lowell_M

Isn't there some kind of dynamic compression mode in the OSD that you would use for "nite mode"? Would having one of those modes turned on create this problem? Have you tried re-setting your AVR to factory specs and recalibrating? (somewhere on this forum there are instructions for resetting the H/K's)

jakelm

a_mattison wrote:

Isn't there some kind of dynamic compression mode in the OSD that you would use for "nite mode"? Would having one of those modes turned on create this problem? Have you tried re-setting your AVR to factory specs and recalibrating? (somewhere on this forum there are instructions for resetting the H/K's)

I have done all of the above and more.. I promise you Aaron...I have gone through this AVR inside/out.

I will run test tonight and document my results.

Lowell_M

jakelm wrote:

I have done all of the above and more.. I promise you Aaron...I have gone through this AVR inside/out.

I will run test tonight and document my results.

:rolleyes: I'm sitting on a conference call scratching my head about this trying to think of things. ...boring conference call...curious problem.

jakelm

I will also document the pink noise coming directly from the reciever OSD. So if anyone wants to compare apples to apples we can.

jakelm

a_mattison wrote:

:rolleyes: I'm sitting on a conference call scratching my head about this trying to think of things. ...boring conference call...curious problem.

I'm just avoiding work all together.

Ron Temple

Jake,

Something's up with your receiver or their settings. Going from the 502/520 to the 235, there was definitely more headroom. I calibrated to 75db @ -10 in pink noise, but used to rarely go above -20 to get C weighted response in the 90 db range at my listening position (for music). Now with the amp handling the front duties, I can comfortably go louder and get in the low 100s ~ -6 outputting according to the meters ~ 30 watts.

Maybe the cuts that auto/EQ made are messing with your in room FR. Sounds like you've got DNR effecting your sound. I know you spent a bunch of time dialing it in, but taking it back to factory then just calibrating with SPL meter, no EQ, might bring back the volume. You have at least twice the receiver vs. the Onk 502.

Lowell_M

Ron, Are you saying the HK 235 had more headroom than the Onk? (not challenging the claim, just making sure it is clear)

jakelm

Ron Temple wrote:

Jake,

You have at least twice the receiver vs. the Onk 502.

I know Ron, thats why the "lack of" output surprised me.

I will run my test both ways. First with my current settings. Then a full reset and ratshack meter calibration.

I do like the equalizing the 635 does for my room. I only had to re-do the speaker size to get a great sound...much better than the Onk. Its the amount of output that worries me.

My friends and I were sitting at the breakfast table playing cards, having a few beers. Wife and kids were away. A good song came on and I turn the volume up. I went to put it alittle lounder (it was laready pretty loud, but we could still talk) anyways, I went to put it alittle louder and I was maxed. I went WHAAATTT??:eek:

My breakfast table is only 25 or so feet from my main left and right front speakers. I was on PLLX music listening to dvd's. I switched to 2 channel stereo, not much difference. Alittle louder, but not much.

Ron Temple

a_mattison wrote:

Ron, Are you saying the HK 235 had more headroom than the Onk? (not challenging the claim, just making sure it is clear)

Perhaps I mis-spoke, but the gain on the Onk was on the absolute(1-80) scale rather than logrythmic (?) -80 to +10. I always felt the Onk sounded compressed and lacked punch compared to the HK at similar volume levels. I never took either to 11. I was afraid of clipping. The HK always sounded in better control, with a broader, deeper soundstage and more detail. I like the 235 better than the 602 as well. The 635 should have 1.5 times more ballz than the 235, so it should be no contest.

All this being said, a receiver just can't compete with separate amplification. The 80wpc integrated I used formerly was a big step up from the HK powering my fronts.

jakelm

Well this might sound wierd, but there is little difference between the Hafler and the H/K driving my main fronts. As a matter of fact, when calibrating the fronts, the H/K ez setting has the Hafler @ +5 for mains. When I switch it to the H/K driving the mains and re-run the ez eq. It sets the mains @ +4. 1 step lower when using the internal H/K amp.

The Hafler is a DH-200: 100 watts per channel @ 8ohms. Not quite sure on the ohms @ 6ohms. Probably around 120 or 130 watts.

Now I'm talking strickly output dbs.

ben62670

TennesseeOutlaw wrote:

I have owned both Onkyo and H/K, not the models you have, but still should be relevant.. I had an Onkyo rated at 105 watts and I got H/K with 80 watts, and the H/K would just blow the Onkyo away.. Possibly have some kinda DSP feild on?? Like others have said; something just isnt adding up..

There is a setting wrong, a bad unit possible. I would contact HK just to have the case on file. Does the receiver have an ohms setting? If it does I would try the 8 ohm setting over the 4 ohm setting. If it gets hot, and or shuts down I would switch it back to 4 ohms.

I have a near mint Adcom GFA-5400 that I am willing to part with. My friend bought some from a guy who owned an AV store, and went out of business. Its 130 watts at 8 ohms, and 200 at 4 ohms. But before buying another amp (which is why I chose the HK myself) I would look into what the problem is. It may not seem very loud to your ears because it is so clean. Surgeon General says sustained levels at 95 dbl is where the human ear starts getting damaged. My SDA's hit peaks of 120dbl c weighted, and slow response, and I can still hear comments (barely) from my friends. You really should not use the HK auto setup. Use a meter and do it manually.

Holydoc

I am confused by this. The Onkyo SR-502 is rated at 75watts per channel. The H/K 635 is rated at 75watts per channel. The reasoning everyone feels that the H/K should play louder than the Onkyo is because Onkyo typically over-rates their output and H/K usually conservatively lists their output?

What if the above assumption is just not true with these two receivers? What if just the opposite is true for these particular receivers? Just a thought.

If you would not have already stated that you tried it in two-channel mode, I was going to hypothesize that it was the way the internal amp distributes power to the speakers. For instance the Onkyo will pull power from the other speakers to keep the fronts power flowing (that became very apparent with my Onkyo receiver when I purchased an external amp for my 901 and it immediately opened up the surround sound). If the H/K keeps a steady amount of power flowing to all speakers all the time, then when you crank it up it would not draw power from the other speakers and thus a loudness level is reached earlier than what the Onkyo would have reached. However if you tested both receivers in two-channel modes they definitely would be comparable and thus should have very comparable headroom. Yours did not. So there is definitely a problem. (Don't I have a unique way of stating the obvious?)

Anyway, I wonder if you are having an internal receiver problem (such as the nightmode is stuck on) or even a phasing problem with your speakers (i.e., cancelling each other out). Hmm... I guess I am not much help.

Ron Temple

Holydoc wrote:

I am confused by this. The Onkyo SR-502 is rated at 75watts per channel. The H/K 635 is rated at 75watts per channel. The reasoning everyone feels that the H/K should play louder than the Onkyo is because Onkyo typically over-rates their output and H/K usually conservatively lists their output?

What if the above assumption is just not true with these two receivers? What if just the opposite is true for these particular receivers? Just a thought.

If you would not have already stated that you tried it in two-channel mode, I was going to hypothesize that it was the way the internal amp distributes power to the speakers. For instance the Onkyo will pull power from the other speakers to keep the fronts power flowing (that became very apparent with my Onkyo receiver when I purchased an external amp for my 901 and it immediately opened up the surround sound). If the H/K keeps a steady amount of power flowing to all speakers all the time, then when you crank it up it would not draw power from the other speakers and thus a loudness level is reached earlier than what the Onkyo would have reached. However if you tested both receivers in two-channel modes they definitely would be comparable and thus should have very comparable headroom. Yours did not. So there is definitely a problem. (Don't I have a unique way of stating the obvious?)

Anyway, I wonder if you are having an internal receiver problem (such as the nightmode is stuck on) or even a phasing problem with your speakers (i.e., cancelling each other out). Hmm... I guess I am not much help.

Actually some pretty good ideas. I did see a bench test article which showed that the HK does around 90 wpc X 2 and ~ 84 X 7. I think the Onk is one channel driven from 20-20k, all channels were about 36 wpc. The entry level Onk is a bullet proof entry level receiver that sells from $180 - $300. The HK is just below their flagship.

Dennis Gardner

FYI- White noise generated with my AVR7200 is 95db at 1 foot from mains/center with the volume set to "0" and speaker levels at 0db.

85db at 10 feet, my preferred seating. CS350LS center, ADS L-1230 mains (they are 94db efficient 6 ohms nominal, hotter than my Polk SDAs)

Ern Dog

I use to have the Onk 502 and now HK 635. I typically listen to cd's -30 to -20. The 635 smoked the 502 in every possible way.

I agree with others that something seems wrong in your system. If you already tried rehooking all the wires and double checking phases then maybe doing some test with a multimeter or taking it into the shop to figure out what's wrong. I don't know how to do these multimeter tests but others might.

jakelm

I just did the test.

@ 1 foot with ratshack meter.
Mic pointed directly @ left front speaker.
Front left set by Ez @ +6.
Using pink noise from AVR.
Using just the left front channel
Meter set @ 80dbs
Ezeq on
AVR -32 volume

Did a reset.
No eq
Same position. 1 foot directly in front os speaker.
Mic pointed at speaker.
Front left I put back to +6.
Using just left front channel.
Meter @ 80dbs
AVR -20

So I'm guessing this is accurate and Eq is working well.

Jake

jakelm

Does that look about right fellows?

AndyGwis

I have no idea. Looks like the EQ is doing quite a bit, tho.

If I'm reading what you wrote correctly, it looks like to get 80db of output at 1 foot, you needed to turn it up to -32 on the HK dial with EZEQ applied.

When running with no EZEQ, you had to turn the dial up to -20 to get 80db of output at 1 foot.

Is that right? I may be mixing the two up, I've only used the EZEQ, need to get a spl meter from ratshack one day and the Avia disc.

jakelm

Thats right Andy.. I did a near field test, hoping someone else could do the same easy/quick test and we could compare.

To produce 80dbs @ 1 foot from the speaker, I had to turn the volume up to -32 with Eq on.
With Eq off and complete reset volume had to increase to -20.

Since the original Eq setting put my LF speaker @ +6 , I went ahead and put it back to +6 when I did the complete reset.

So Eq is increasing the output by a good bit.

I have both Avia and DVE. But I always use the internal AVR's pink noise. So ther is no discrepency with DVD players output.

jakelm

I watched The Ellusionist last night. Volume was @ -16. Just to give reference.

AndyGwis

I found the movie to be a little light on volume and ran it at about -22 in my small apartment. Mostly dialogue, not much action / background sound effect music in that one so I ran it a bit higher.

I think when I watched LOTR trilogy, I ran it in the mid 30's. Movie soundtracks can be kind of all over the place, I think. All my gf's chick flicks are usually run in the low 20s, as are the never-ending Friends DVDs