H/K's power rating

jakelm

I find my H/K is having problems driving my vintage Polk 7b's and my vintage 7.1 system. (Listed below in sig)

My volume level is constantly staying between -20 and -10, for me to get any good dbs out of it. Is your's about the same?

I remember on a couple of dvd's, using DDigital, and a few Pllx movies on cable, I was accually @ 0 to +2. Now I know that different DVD's and movies have different recording levels, but my Onkyo was able to reproduce higher dbs without getting so close to maxing it out with the same movies. I did notice volume level 0 and higher (+1 to +6) on the 635 stops increasing the bass and treble and its more midrange getting louder.

The only reason I'm concerned about this is because, my older Onkyo 502 is rated @ the same 75watts per channel, but -20 below maxing it out, my db level was extremely loud. With my Onkyo I could easily over drive my speakers. Alot of people around here state that H/K's power rating is very conservative. But I found that, so far in my case, this is untrue. My volume goes to +6. But I can reach that setting and not get the same db output as my older Onkyo.

Do you find the same thing? Or am I just imagining things?

Jake

P.S Dont get me wrong, this is an awsome sounding AVR, I just wish I could get higher db output, like I did with my $299 Onkyo 502, without having to add external amps. (You know. When I want to just "rock" out):p

PolkWannabie

Without an amp ? ... Not unless you find the magical turbo switch on the inside of the box ...

jakelm

PolkWannabie wrote:

Without an amp ? ... Not unless you find the magical turbo switch on the inside of the box ...

Thats my point. Before I bought the 635, everyone was saying that H/K's power rating was very conservative. So I figured, with the 635 I would have more head room. I'm just finding this is not true. Maybe its the Onkyo's WRAT technology that gives thier AVR's that extra power.

Lowell_M

Man.. You're going to break something. I don't know anything about driving the older Polk's, but there have been repeated tests and reports on the H/K AVR's and they always are either true to their reported power output or better. I'm guessing your Onk does not perform as well.

Have you actually measured the Db level to be higher or do your ears tell you its higher? Did you calibrate both systems? I guarantee the HK sound is cleaner and more dynamic. I'm wondering how clean the sound was from your Onkyo at the sound levels you are talking about. How big is your room?

I have an AVR-635 and even before adding my ADCOM amp I've never turned mine past -6 or so for fear of going deaf....and sound was crystal clear to that point. The amp added a level of dynamics and separation that I didn't know I could acheive. DB output is about the same (ADCOM GFA-555 = 200 wpc).

jakelm

I have measures db levels.
I have calibrated the H/K.
The H/K does have a very clean sound.

I am not new to this.

I am just surprised how high I have to turn the level up. And I was wondering if anyone else had the same responce from this AVR or any H/K AVR's.

With pink noise from DVE, @ around 85dbs. My H/K has to be -10 to -6. Which doesnt leave much head room.

jakelm

Maybe its just my ears. Being so used to the Onkyo, having less dynamic range but not distorting. And now with the H/K having better range but less Dbs.

PolkWannabie

Guessing ??? ... Guarantee ? ...

In any case, I've never had an H/K ...

However, I do have an Onkyo 901 in one of the bedrooms that is driving some newer Polks and I concur that it will be very loud long before it gets any where near top end ... I've never had it past -15 as that was really too loud ... not distorted, just LOUD ...

AndyGwis

I found that the typical level for listening for my HK was much lower than the Pioneer vsx1015 it replaced. The Pioneer had to be cranked to -15 for music for decent listening/dynamics and about 0 to -5 to hear anything worthwhile during movies.

With the HK 635 and the same fairly efficient new Monitor setup (60 fronts, 30 rears, all around 90db sens), typical listening levels are around -35 to -25 for music and -35 to -20 for movies. I think for demos, I've gone to -15 for a bit to get that 'wow' factor from friends. NO distortion, and in a relatively small apartment (15' long and open at one end, 9' wide from tv/speakers to opposite wall, 8.5' ceiling) it is very loud.

I returned the Pio because I was worried when I moved into a house or got different speakers that it wouldn't fill the larger listening area. With the HK (even though I've added some amps for mostly curiousity), I don't worry about it running out of steam.

You could always get a cheapo stereo amp ($200 or so) for the front L&R and that would probably help out. Not that you should need a $200 amp to help a $1299 MSRP AVR, but never hurts. Would help the amp with regards to headroom, especially if you're using it for 7 channels at high levels.

jakelm

Wannabie. Thats what I'm talking about..The ability of the loundness of the system without distortion. I found the H/K just wasnt as loud. Which really surprised me.

Ussually...and I mean ussually...even in the HI-Fi world. More wattage does equal more output (dbs). I was just surprised that the H/K wattage is 75 watts per channel and supposed to be under-rated , did not blow away my Onkyo (as db readings go).

Andy, -35 to -20 for movies? Cant stay there in my case. My typical movie ranges from -16 to -9, depending on the recording. I just thought that seemed alittle high.

I am in no part bashing my H/K as a matter of fact , I think its the best sounding AVR I have heard. Its just the output that surprised me.

Lowell_M

PolkWannabie wrote:

Guessing ??? ... Guarantee ? ...

In any case, I've never had an H/K ...

However, I do have an Onkyo 901 in one of the bedrooms that is driving some newer Polks and I concur that it will be very loud long before it gets any where near top end ... I've never had it past -15 as that was really too loud ... not distorted, just LOUD ...

Ah yes... guessing.... My unsubtantiated claims simply based only on the fact that we are comparing a $300 AVR to a $1100 AVR. I have since done a little searching and although I havn't found any power output measurements, it sounds like the 502 is quite a nice unit for the price.

Lowell_M

AndyGwis wrote:

I found that the typical level for listening for my HK was much lower than the Pioneer vsx1015 it replaced. The Pioneer had to be cranked to -15 for music for decent listening/dynamics and about 0 to -5 to hear anything worthwhile during movies.

With the HK 635 and the same fairly efficient new Monitor setup (60 fronts, 30 rears, all around 90db sens), typical listening levels are around -35 to -25 for music and -35 to -20 for movies. I think for demos, I've gone to -15 for a bit to get that 'wow' factor from friends. NO distortion, and in a relatively small apartment (15' long and open at one end, 9' wide from tv/speakers to oppositve wall, 8.5' ceiling) it is very loud.

I returned the Pio because I was worried when I moved into a house or got different speakers that it wouldn't fill the larger listening area. With the HK (even though I've added some amps for mostly curiousity), I don't worry about it running out of steam.

You could always get a cheapo stereo amp ($200 or so) for the front L&R and that would probably help out. Not that you should need a $200 amp to help a $1299 MSRP AVR, but never hurts. Would help the amp with regards to headroom, especially if you're using it for 7 channels at high levels.

I'm right in the same neighborhood as you for volume levels in different situations.

AndyGwis

Hi Jakelm,

I'm actually glad to hear you listen to your in the -16 to -9 range. Maybe my speakers are more efficient and surely my listening area is small in terms of cubic feet. . . but, good to know I can put it up another 5dbs without hurting anything or anyone.

Also, being in an apartment complex, I probably listen a little lower than I would in a private home for fear of pissing of the neighbors.

Lowell_M

jakelm wrote:

Wannabie. Thats what I'm talking about..The ability of the loundness of the system without distortion. I found the H/K just wasnt as loud. Which really surprised me.

Ussually...and I mean ussually...even in the HI-Fi world. More wattage does equal more output (dbs). I was just surprised that the H/K wattage is 75 watts per channel and supposed to be under-rated , did not blow away my Onkyo (as db readings go).

Andy, -35 to -20 for movies? Cant stay there in my case. My typical movie ranges from -16 to -9, depending on the recording. I just thought that seemed alittle high.

I am in no part bashing my H/K as a matter of fact , I think its the best sounding AVR I have heard. Its just the output that surprised me.

I'm actually quite surprised by what you are saying. I would be in pain at the end of a movie if I had the level set at -10. Are the older polks inefficient?

AndyGwis

I think my older Monitor 7Bs were a little less efficient than my 60s/30s, but not by much. I think they are 8 ohm and maybe 89 sens or something.

jakelm

I have accually maxed my H/K out (+6), without distortion, in DD mode. And my ez settings are Front +4, center +1, surround +1, surround back +3. I did notice that between -5 and +6 there is little gain. The only gain is around the 800hz-5khz Fr. The low end and top end stops increasing.

jakelm

a_mattison wrote:

I'm actually quite surprised by what you are saying. I would be in pain at the end of a movie if I had the level set at -10. Are the older polks inefficient?

My 7b's are 6ohm @ 89 effficient. My center should be close to that. Although my center is a Frankinpolk. My 1984 m4's are 8ohms 91 efficient, and the cheap'o m10's from CC are 8ohm and super efficient.

Lowell_M

Something just doesn't seem right. How big is your room?

jakelm

16'W x 23'D x 9'H and opens into a pretty small breakfast area in the back.

I checked phase, connection and individual drivers. I did think it was alittle high.

jakelm

The first time I noticed it was when I had a few freinds over, not long ago. We had a little party and I put in my Nine inch Nails DVD. Awsome dvd by the way. DD and cranked it up. Unfortunatly, it wasnt so cranked. We could still hear ourselves talk. On my onkyo with the same setup and same DVD, you couldnt hear yourself think, much less talk. And it surprised me.

AndyGwis

Pretty big room, but it's not an auditorium or anything. I concur with a mattison, sounds a little fishy.

You haven't gone partially deaf since replacing the Oink with the HK, have you

I looked for a turbo button on the Pio before deciding it just wasn't meant for me. As a rule of thumb, if you're looking for a turbo button, you should probably get another piece of equipment. Don't know what else to say, the HK "should" have the balls to drive those speakers just fine.

jakelm

I might just kill the internal amps and step it up with some NAD or Adcom amps. And use the H/K as a pro/pro.

It could also be the fact that the vintage speakers are lower ohms. The H/K might not put out as much power at lower ohms than the Onk...

The Onk specs had some sort of "dynamic" power when droping below 8ohms. The H/K might not be able to hang with it when dealing with lower ohms.

AndyGwis

Like I put earlier, I'd get a decent stereo amp off ebay, the FM, craiglist, etc. on the cheap. Put a couple hundred wpc into the Front L&R, the 635 should have plenty of headroom to handle the other 5 speakers at that point.

Carver seems to have amps (both M series and TFM series) for $200 give or take that do 200+ wpc. Adcom and NAD are obviously good choices as well.

Lowell_M

AndyGwis wrote:

Like I put earlier, I'd get a decent stereo amp off ebay, the FM, craiglist, etc. on the cheap. Put a couple hundred wpc into the Front L&R, the 635 should have plenty of headroom to handle the other 5 speakers at that point.

Carver seems to have amps (both M series and TFM series) for $200 give or take that do 200+ wpc. Adcom and NAD are obviously good choices as well.

And...If you aren't in a hurry, I'm planning on doing a little amp comparo in the next couple of weeks between an H/K AVR 7200, my ADCOM GFA-555 and a couple different Carvers on a buddy's RTi12's. I'll share my impressions.

jakelm

a_mattison wrote:

And...If you aren't in a hurry, I'm planning on doing a little amp comparo in the next couple of weeks between an H/K AVR 7200, my ADCOM GFA-555 and a couple different Carvers on a buddy's RTi12's. I'll share my impressions.

I would really like to to read that, mattison. How similar is the 7200 and the 635?

Lowell_M

I miss-typed. That is the AVR-7300, which is a monster. It was the flagship model for a while at 110 wpc into 8 ohm all 7 channels driven. I got my friend interested in this hobby in the last few months and so far he has put one hell of a system together. He's got an SVS on the way and just got the 12's.

DKG999 and Heiney9 and I did a little amp comparo in the fall on my equipment.... i'll find the link and post it here as well. That is how I ended up with the ADCOM.

Lowell_M

Here you go.

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45697&highlight=adcom+parasound+outlaw

It's pretty much my introduction to separates and my impression of the sound characteristics of each amp.....

heiney9

After skimming this thread a few comments:

First you can never go wrong with adding a seperate amp, that's a good idea though it may not be nec.

The Onk. is a heaftier, beefier unit so it stands to reason that you will get more absolute volume out of it comapred to the H/K.

Not sure what you are refering to as far as your volume settings. Those are just a respresentative scale and cannot be compared across units. One units -10db is not the same as another units -10db.

Now if you are talking actual room measurements that's a different story. 0db on the volume scale is not reference level. Who cares if on the H/K you have to run it say +5 to get decent volume. As long as it's not clipping why does it matter what the volume scale reads? Especially compared to the representative scale of another companies unit.

You could test several different receivers and set them all to the same volume scale setting and they would probably all have different levels of output.

Lastly the original Monitor series are a very efficient and easy to drive load so that's not the problem.

H9

jakelm

H9, I am not comparing the different readings on the same H/k's. But I am comparing how much headroom is left. I find on my 635 compared to others I have alot less headroom. I can get to the same extension as the other setup including my older Onk. But whats left beyond that seems much less.

My goal here was to hear opinions and see if others had the same headroom as I did. I can reach 90-100dbs, but not much room after that. Kind of like one car reaching 65mph but is only able to go 75mph, while another car exact same make and model can do 65mph, but can reach 100mph. Because of the headroom.

Lowell_M

At this point, I have zero technical advice. Something just seems wrong knowing what I get out of my 635.

TennesseeOutlaw

I have owned both Onkyo and H/K, not the models you have, but still should be relevant.. I had an Onkyo rated at 105 watts and I got H/K with 80 watts, and the H/K would just blow the Onkyo away.. Possibly have some kinda DSP feild on?? Like others have said; something just isnt adding up..

heiney9

jakelm wrote:

H9, I am not comparing the different readings on the same H/k's. But I am comparing how much headroom is left. I find on my 635 compared to others I have alot less headroom. I can get to the same extension as the other setup including my older Onk. But whats left beyond that seems much less.

My goal here was to hear opinions and see if others had the same headroom as I did. I can reach 90-100dbs, but not much room after that. Kind of like one car reaching 65mph but is only able to go 75mph, while another car exact same make and model can do 65mph, but can reach 100mph. Because of the headroom.

My point is how do you know what the head room is just based on the volume scale? 0db on the scale doesn’t nec represent you’ve reached the max. Output is algorithmic not linear and the volume scale is a linear representation. Now I understand that the volume control is not infinite so it does stand to reason at some numerical reading you are reaching the theoretical maximum.

But that maximum is represented differently on all these types of linear volume scales. When do you start to hear a bit of clipping? That’s when the limit has been reached regardless of what the volume scale reads on the receiver.

If I’m missing your point I apologize, but the whole volume scale in db’s is just a numerical representation. Unlike your auto example. When the speedo on a car says 60mph you are going 60mph (give or take the normal inaccuracies of said indicator). The volume scale doesn’t represent or correspond to the true output of the receiver. Algorithmic output cannot be represented on a linear scale with any degree of accuracy. It is simply a visual reference guide, and each unit even within manufacturers can be different.