New TT setup
Comments
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wingnut4772 wrote: »...powder?
I am glad to see you have the black belt. On a side note, if anyone has the clear belt, I would suggest replacing it with a black one from VPI.
The powder is used to lubricate the belt so it does not pinch or grab in the pulley and platter tracks.
- clean your belt using alcohol
- clean the pulley and platter edges (Q-tip dipped in alcohol touched to the pulley while running and glass cleaner on the platter)
- place the belt in a plastic bag along with talcum power (baby power works)
- shake the bag to entirely coat the belt
- remove the belt from the bag and shake the excess power off (outside)
- install the belt.
If you use a resealable plastic bag, you can reuse the power the next time you lubricate the belt.
Arthur SchopenhauerAll truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed and third, it is accepted as self evident. -
I am glad to see you have the black belt. On a side note, if anyone has the clear belt, I would suggest replacing it with a black one from VPI.
The powder is used to lubricate the belt so it does not pinch or grab in the pulley and platter tracks.
- clean your belt with a mild detergent solution and let dry
- clean the pulley and platter edges (I use isopropyl alcohol on the pulley and windex on the platter)
- place the belt in a plastic bag along with talcum power (baby power works)
- shake the bag to entirely coat the belt
- remove the belt from the bag and shake the excess power off (outside)
- install the belt.
If you use a resealable plastic bag, you can reuse the power the next time you lubricate the belt.
I was afraid to use alcohol on the motor spindle so I took a bunch of long wood swabs and increased the speed of the motor to very fast and kept alternating swab side with stick side. It seemed to get all the gunked up powder off the spindle.
BTW Make sure the Windex you use is just plain old Windex not the stuff that stays put or has a fragrance as they leave residue and once on the LP is very difficult to disolve. . . it's almost as bad as getting silicone on the record. . . bad news. -
hearingimpared wrote: »BTW Make sure the Windex you use is just plain old Windex not the stuff that stays put or has a fragrance as they leave residue and once on the LP is very difficult to disolve. . . it's almost as bad as getting silicone on the record. . . bad news.
Never knew there were different types of Windex. I use the good old plain stuff. Thanks for the heads up.
Arthur SchopenhauerAll truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed and third, it is accepted as self evident. -
I am glad to see you have the black belt. On a side note, if anyone has the clear belt, I would suggest replacing it with a black one from VPI.
The powder is used to lubricate the belt so it does not pinch or grab in the pulley and platter tracks.
- clean your belt with a mild detergent solution and let dry
- clean the pulley and platter edges (I use isopropyl alcohol on the pulley and windex on the platter)
- place the belt in a plastic bag along with talcum power (baby power works)
- shake the bag to entirely coat the belt
- remove the belt from the bag and shake the excess power off (outside)
- install the belt.
If you use a resealable plastic bag, you can reuse the power the next time you lubricate the belt.
Do I really have to do this? What happens if I don't? (as I start to rebel:p )Sharp Elite 70
Anthem D2V 3D
Parasound 5250
Parasound HCA 1000 A
Parasound HCA 1000
Oppo BDP 95
Von Schweikert VR4 Jr R/L Fronts
Von Schweikert LCR 4 Center
Totem Mask Surrounds X4
Hsu ULS-15 Quad Drive Subwoofers
Sony PS3
Squeezebox Touch
Polk Atrium 7s on the patio just to keep my foot in the door. -
Never knew there were different types of Windex. I use the good old plain stuff. Thanks for the heads up.
Just like every thing else, and this trend was started with beer, there are 450,000 varieties of each product made these days. Remember when you could get Colgate or Crest toothpaste? Now you have to look though four shelves for each brand to find a flavor or one that whitens or one that cleans tartar, all this ad nauseum. -
wingnut4772 wrote: »Do I really have to do this? What happens if I don't? (as I start to rebel:p )
To some here on the forum the word "excessive" doesn't even come close to decribing their audio "routines". Ignore them...you will be better for it.
"Just because youre offended doesnt mean youre right." - Ricky Gervais
"For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase
"Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." - Bernard Berenson -
Maple and slate isolation platforms have been added to the dedicated stand for the TT and SAMA (Stand-Alone Motor Assembly).
The maple platform was placed on the top of the solid oak end table and is isolated by appropriately sized (calculated) Sorbothane feet. The SAMA has been positioned on a piece of slate isolated from the maple platform by sized Sorbothane feet. The TT plinth feet sit on metal footers which sit on oak footers. The oak footers were used to raise the TT plinth to a level matching the SAMA height.
The tonearm and TT IC cables were burned-in for 406 hours as they were taking on a dark characteristic after some LP playback time. If you care to know, this was required as I was ready to return the Signature tonearm (Nordost Valhalla tonearm wire) to have it rewired with the standard VPI wire.
This completes the basic setup. The upgrades and optimizations completed this past year has been an extremely worthwhile exercise and have allowed the Scout to achieve a surprisingly high level of refinement. I can now rest and enjoy some excessive audio routines.
Arthur SchopenhauerAll truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed and third, it is accepted as self evident. -
To some here on the forum the word "excessive" doesn't even come close to decribing their audio "routines". Ignore them...you will be better for it.
Heeeeeyyyyy I resemble that remark!:D:p -
Maple and slate isolation platforms have been added to the dedicated stand for the TT and SAMA (Stand-Alone Motor Assembly).
The maple platform was placed on the top of the solid oak end table and is isolated by appropriately sized (calculated) Sorbothane feet. The SAMA has been positioned on a piece of slate isolated from the maple platform by sized Sorbothane feet. The TT plinth feet sit on metal footers which sit on oak footers. The oak footers were used to raise the TT plinth to a level matching the SAMA height.
The tonearm and TT IC cables were burned-in for 406 hours as they were taking on a dark characteristic after some LP playback time. If you care to know, this was required as I was ready to return the Signature tonearm (Nordost Valhalla tonearm wire) to have it rewired with the standard VPI wire.
This completes the basic setup. The upgrades and optimizations completed this past year has been an extremely worthwhile exercise and have allowed the Scout to achieve a surprisingly high level of refinement. I can now rest and enjoy some excessive audio routines.
Right!!! and I'm just starting!!! :eek: Looking good Bro. I need to know the formula for figuring out the sorbothane density . -
Very nice set-up!:cool:
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i would recommend burning everything in for 407 hours........
enjoy.....
RT1 -
Oh come on now! Are we gonna have to start a new debate on how many hours to burn in? I was gonna say to burn it in for 408 hours! It's on! :eek:
~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~ -
Listen I have so many new things to burn-in that I'll be 80 years old when they are all burned in!!!
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Hehe. Congrat's on the TT jm1. Enjoy!~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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hearingimpared wrote: »Listen I have so many new things to burn-in that I'll be 80 years old when they are all burned in!!!
I'll make it substantially quicker for you and send some matches.
Arthur SchopenhauerAll truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed and third, it is accepted as self evident. -
I'll make it substantially quicker for you and send some matches.
Ha ha ha guess what Bro???? The big new toy is being delivered tomorrow, me so excited I could just bust! I will be receiving the MC step - up transformer Monday but I'm still going to run the Spectral phono stage through the new toy!!!:D;):cool: -
hearingimpared wrote: »The big new toy is being delivered tomorrow....
Let me guess.....something like a view or prospect?:D :cool:Salk SoundScape 8's * Audio Research Reference 3 * Bottlehead Eros Phono * Park's Audio Budgie SUT * Krell KSA-250 * Harmonic Technology Pro 9+ * Signature Series Sonore Music Server w/Deux PS * Roon * Gustard R26 DAC / Singxer SU-6 DDC * Heavy Plinth Lenco L75 Idler Drive * AA MG-1 Linear Air Bearing Arm * AT33PTG/II & Denon 103R * Richard Gray 600S * NHT B-12d subs * GIK Acoustic Treatments * Sennheiser HD650 * -
Three something!
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In a prior post, I eluded to the necessity of adding an electronic speed controller in order to implement a minor change to improve the sonic characteristics of the table. I now have a PS Audio P300 power plant to provide extremely accurate and stable power for the SAMA. The P300 also has a SINE mode which allows the user to vary the line voltage and frequency.
The image focus has improved and offers up new levels of detail. Music is more dynamic with added tautness in the lower octaves. Overall, the cumulative improvements help to create a more realistic experience.
Varying the frequency of the output from the P300 allows me to change the motor RPM. The motor pulley and supplied belt is optimized to rotate the platter at the correct speed at a 60Hz line frequency. Using thread based belts without electronic speed regulation will not rotate the platter at full speed.
I have been trying many different materials as a drive belt. The ones I consistently return to are silk thread and (Spiderwire) mono-filament fishing line. The thread based belt increases the isolation between the platter and motor further lowering the noise floor. More details are present now that the background noise has been lowered. Sounds literally materialize from nowhere and vanish without a trace. The results are quite intoxicating and I cant get enough.
An acquaintance had lent me a pristine copy of a MFSL 1/2 Speed Mastered Pink Floyd DSOTM LP. I played this LP concurrently along with a digital mastered CD through my Museatex Bitstream DAC. I found the CD playback to be completely unlistenable in direct comparison to the LP. The CD did not have the precise focus of the LP as well as sounding grainy, noisy and harsh. I have experienced and understood the term grainy, but never to this magnitude.
About the only thing left for the Scout is a ring clamp (and matching center weight?). Later this year, I may also move up the ZYX line and get the Airy 3 or an Atmos.
I now hear why I was gently guided toward the path I have taken during this upgrade process. The Scout is capable of much more than many could ever imagine.
Arthur SchopenhauerAll truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed and third, it is accepted as self evident. -
Awesome stuff John. Email coming.
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The intent of this post is to inform Scout owners of the challenges I encountered when upgrading to the Super Platter.
After having a taste of vinyl and wanting additional refinement from the TT setup, I decided to pursue the upgrade path for the Scout TT instead of purchasing a different table. This post specifically illustrates the issues I encountered when configuring the Scout to use the Super Platter.
Prior to the Super Platter installation, the 300 RPM motor upgrade had been installed for use with the 11.55” diameter platter.
Scout Platter
The standard Scout platter is machined from a 12” x 12” piece of acrylic to an 11.55” diameter and has a height of 1 3/8”. This platter is only used on the Scout TT.
Super platter
The TNT platter (used on all current non-Scout TTs) and the non HR-X Super Platter are 12 1/4” in diameter with a height of 1 3/4”. The size difference is significant when compared to the standard Scout platter in several ways and will be discussed below.
600 RPM Motor
The standard motor provided with the Scout SAMA (Stand Alone Motor Assembly) is a 12-pole, 600 RPM unit. The Scout is the only current TT using this motor. The pulley provided with the 600 RPM motor is optimized for use with the 11.55” diameter Scout platter. I am not aware of a motor pulley for use with the larger 12 1/4” diameter platters.
300 RPM Motor
The 24-pole 300 RPM motor is used on all current non-Scout single motor, single motor flywheel, dual motor flywheel and dual motor rim drive SAMA units.
There is an upgrade path for the Scout to replace the 600 RPM motor with a 300 RPM motor. This upgrade includes the motor, capacitor and a new pulley optimized for the 11.55” diameter platter. I would recommend this upgrade regardless.
JMW-9 Tonearm
The Scout, SM (Scoutmaster) and SSM (Super Scoutmaster) series TTs include the JMW-9 tonearm. When the tonearm base is mounted directly on the plinth, the arm wand will be at the correct height when used with the 1 3/8” high platter.
The SM and SSM use the 1 3/4” high platter. In order to span the additional 3/8” height difference between the two platters heights, a 3/8” riser is installed between the plinth and tonearm base.
Method (or Madness)
The Super Platter upgrade is designed to be a simple operation taking several minutes to install. While the physical installation of the Super Platter was easy to complete, the Scout requires several additional pieces in order to be properly configured. This is not mentioned in any literature and the required parts are not referred to nor included even when the Scout plinth is specified as the upgrade platform.
The installation of the Super Platter on the Scout requires a 1” Delrin washer. Some sites mention this. This is required as the Super Platter bearing can not be installed on the Scout plinth without this. This one is a show stopper.
The Scout 600 RPM motor pulley is optimized for the Scout 11.55” diameter platter. If you upgraded to the 300 RPM motor with the Scout 11.55” diameter platter, you will be provided with a motor pulley optimized for the 11.55” diameter platter.
When a 12 1/4” diameter platter is installed, the 600 or 300 RPM motor pulleys optimized for the 11.55” diameter platter will not rotate the 12 1/4” diameter platter to the correct speed; the platter will always rotate slower than the desired RPM.
The 300 RPM motor has two pulleys available; one for the 11.55” platter and one for the 12 1/4” platter. If you previously had the 11.55” Scout platter with the 300 RPM motor, you will need the “SM 300 RPM motor pulley”. This motor pulley has a larger diameter in order to rotate the platter to the correct speed.
If you have the 600 RPM motor, I am not sure if there is another pulley available for the 12 1/4” platter. You will need to contact VPI to inquire about this. If no other pulley is available, you will need to move to the 300 RPM motor (which I would recommend).
The Super Platter (1 3/4”) is 3/8” taller than the Scout (1 3/8”) high platter. You will require the 3/8” riser that is standard issue on the SM and SSM TTs. VPI tried to tell me the JMW-9 will work with the 1 3/4” high platters without the riser. Not! I asked VPI why they put the riser on the SM and SSM TTs if the tonearm works without the riser. A riser was sent in the mail. Please specify you want three longer screws when you request the riser.
The 3/8” riser also includes a platform for the junction box. Remove the junction box from the Scout plinth. The junction box platform installs between the riser and the tonearm base. The junction box then mounts to this platform and keeps the junction box and tonearm at the same relative height.
Closing Thoughts
There is a lot of measurement information in this post and may be somewhat confusing the first (and subsequent) readings. If you believe there are any errors in the provided information, please PM me including the text in question. I will review the information and correct or clarify the post as required. This will make following the upgrade process easier for future reference.
Upgrading to the Super Platter on the Scout TT is a somewhat undocumented process. Now that all the pieces of the process have been identified, the installation should be straight forward. Most of the frustration with the installation was determining that additional parts were necessary and waiting for the mailing to arrive.
Arthur SchopenhauerAll truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed and third, it is accepted as self evident. -
I'm interested in your thoughts on the new platter. I queried Steve at Quest for Sound as I'm about to pull the trigger on the Scout Master, he said with the SM, it doesn't represent a great return on investment but I wonder with the Scout if it's a different story.
Not trying to poke a hole at the platter, mind you, the TNT platter upgrade on the HW-19 was a HUGE plus.
BDTI plan for the future. - F1Nut -
I performed a concurrent upgrade of the Signature tonearm and the Super Platter. It was not possible to isolate the individual characteristics of either due to timing.
The following comments regarding the results of the upgrade are buried within this thread :The addition of the JMW-9 Signature tonearm and Super Platter has taken the Scout to an entirely different level. All performance characteristics have been improved on. There is more detail and texture within the music. The leading transient and subsequent decays make the music much more believable. Bass has better pitch and definition while the midrange and beyond is smooth as silk.
I have only played with a SM Signature once at a dealers showroom with a different cartridge, phono stage and system in a different acoustical environment so I am not overly familiar with its sonic characteristics.
I would check on some of the analog/vinyl forums for SM or SSM owners who upgraded to the Super Platter. IIRC, there were definite performance improvements across the range of TTs. I just can't see performance gains being significant to only the Scout and not all other TTs in their catalog.
PS. I would go with the Signature arm as it has the fine VTF adjustment in the rear stem of the tonearm. This makes dialing in the sound much easier and more precise. The standard arm uses the movement of the counter weight to adjust both VTF and azimuth concurrently. The fine VTF allowed me to really dial in the ZYX cartridge. I will never again buy a tonearm without an independent fine VTF adjustment.
Arthur SchopenhauerAll truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed and third, it is accepted as self evident. -
It is my experience with platters upgrades that the combination of materials, impededance matching and and density all play a significant factor in the improvement of both the staibility/imaging and and bass response of the overall turntable performmance. Unless, a company uses a a complete mismatch of matterials and doesn't take into consideration the the reflective nature of the material involved then it is damned near impossible to screw up the improvements of the a 1 inch thick plus piece of solid or composite materail.
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These are some methods I have been using to optimize the performance of my TT. I hope that others can use or adapt these techniques to configure and refine the performance of any TT.
TT Belt
After experimenting with various materials as a belt for the platter, I have always returned to silk thread. This material provides the isolation I seek with sufficient static gripping force for platter startup and maintaining proper rotational speed. The VPI issued belt has been placed in storage as a quick backup if required.
Please refer to post 111 in this thread for more information.
Azimuth
To set the azimuth on a unipivot tonearm, it is recommended to place a light straight object such as a coffee stir stick on top of the headshell and use this as a guide. The problem I have with this is in order to get a true reading, you need to place the center of the straight object at the center of balance of the headshell. If you do not get the two center points lined up, there will be unequal weight between the two sides.
I have been using an alternate method of setting azimuth. I have a stylus brush which is enclosed in its own wooden case. On a stationary old LP, the case is placed in front of the tonearm with the stylus lowered on the LP playing surface. Ensure the stylus case is exactly parallel to the front of the cartridge, but not touching so not to impede the tonearm balance.
By looking directly at the front of the tonearm, you can determine if the azimuth is set correct by lining up the top of the wooden stylus case with the top of the cartridge or headshell. This has produced the best consistent and easy results for setting the azimuth. The final small adjustment is made by listening.
Please refer to the attached pictures for a visual presentation.
Anti-Skate
I have been playing with the tonearm configuration for some time to fully understand its characteristics. While VPI does not endorse the use of the mechanical anti-skate mechanism, I have found in my setup that performance is significantly enhanced when using this device.
Another method VPI recommend is to place an additional twist to the tonearm wire before connecting to the junction box. At this point, I prefer not to put any additional twists to the Nordost Valhalla tonearm wire.
The attached pictures show the amount of anti-skate I found to work best within my system.
Arthur SchopenhauerAll truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed and third, it is accepted as self evident. -
I have mentioned in my prior ramblings that one day I would like to add the VPI Periphery Ring Clamp to my configuration. I have read this clamp provides additional sonic benefits. That day has finally arrived as the clamp is now in active duty on the Scout.
The clamp is described as:
‘A massive ring designed to sit just outside the lead-in groove, the Periphery Ring Clamp's weight flattens the record onto the platter, eliminating edge warps and more completely coupling the record to the platter.’
The word ‘massive’ should not be discounted nor ignored as I was surprised at the weight of the ring. It really is heavy and should flatten all but the most stubborn LPs.
The ring fits around the outside of the platter and has a ridge on the inside which rests on the outer edge of the LP. The ring is centered by the platter so there are no issues with it ever being off-center. The weight of the ring flattens and couples the outer portion of the LP to the platter. I am using the reflex clamp without the center spindle washer as a center weight to complete the coupling of the LP to the platter. The additional mass around the outside of the platter further improves rotational speed stability.
It was immediately apparent there were significant sonic benefits to tightly coupling the LP to the platter. There is a significant improvement to the depth, weight and tautness of the low frequencies. The mid and upper frequencies are more refined and detailed than I could have hoped for.
I have also noticed a significant increase in the overall clarity and placement of the spatial images along with an increase to depth and layering of the soundstage. I also find there is more ambient information being retrieved which further recreates the illusion live performances. The background noise has also been reduced for some reason??
Had I any indication of what the results would be when adding the ring clamp to this lowly but tricked-out Scout, I would have acquired one earlier. I just can’t believe what I have been missing since upgrading to the super platter which is capable of accepting the clamp. Doh!
The only risk of using the ring clamp I can see at this time is you need to be attentive where you place the needle on the lead in groves. With proper placement during this critical phase, I don’t foresee any future issues.
Herein ends the journey of this Scout.
It has been an interesting experience moving through the various stages outlined in the thread. With approximately 5000ish LPs in and around (literally) the house, I have decided to up the stakes in the analog realm. A VPI Aries TT with a JMW-10.5i tonearm and SDS are in transit as I write. The best of both TTs will be combined and replace current configuration.
Once this process has been completed, the next phase should be to move up to a ZYX Airy 3 or Atmos cartridge. Then …
…
Yeah, this beat goes on
And on, and on, and on
…
JM
Arthur SchopenhauerAll truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed and third, it is accepted as self evident. -
JM,
Does VPI suggest a belt or motor upgrade to accommodate the additional weight or were the motor and belt designed with the use of the ring in mind?Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country! -
John,
Just curious. If you don't use the shim under the reflex clamp to push down on the outer perimeter of the record label won't the perphery clamp cause the LP to bow upwards in the middle tracks? -
DK,
There is no upgrade necessary for the motor or belt when using the periphery ring clamp. The only motor upgrade I would like to perform is to the single motor flywheel unit. I will see how the new setup performs before any further changes.
Joe,
There isnt enough clamping force exerted by the periphery clamp to cause distortions to the center tracks. It only exerts enough vertical pressure to remove or reduce warps and couple the LP to the platter. The center weight, or in my case, the standard clamp, is only tightened enough to couple the LP against the platter.
Arthur SchopenhauerAll truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed and third, it is accepted as self evident. -
I'm still afraid of the thing. My hands aren't as steady as they once were and I can see the stylus of my Airy 3 getting ripped out by the roots.:eek:
Besides with my clamp and being part of the record flattener consortium I really don't need it.
I'm glad it is working out for you.:)
