SQ help

dolfan87

It's been quite some time since I posted in here. I have a 1970 Mach 1 Mustang that I have been restomodding for 6 years. It's just about complete, and I am gearing up to do the install on my system.

I am using the I.D. 12" D4 for a sub, and I.D. 5.25 2 ohm Chameleons with the I.D. tweets.

Amps are Polks, 500.1 for the sub, 400.4 for the components.

I have a set of passive x-overs from my old MB Quart components, and if I am not happy with the internal x-over on the 400.4, then I will use the Quarts.

I have quite a bit of experience in general car audio, but this is my first attempt at real staging, and imaging. I promise to be a sponge, and follow directions, as I really want this car to be top notch in every way.

Having said that, I will most likely never compete.

Now for my questions.

I have room in the doors for the components, and it would be the easiest for me as far as building the pods. However, if kick panel is truly the best way to go, I can make it work.

With the Chameleons, is it best for me to simply mount that tweeter on the mid, or am I going to get better results mounting it seperately?

Also, when aiming the speakers, can i just use the deck for power, or is it better for me to go hook up an amp?

I really appreciate any help with this.

Happy New Year!

Gram

MacLeod

The key to getting a great stage is to get the pathlength difference between the L and R speakers as close to equal as possible.

Door locations are out. Not only are they not far enough forward to make the pathlength difference more equal, but one is a lot more on axis than the other which can cause some weird issues. It can work but only for one seat AND with a heft processor that is capable of tuning all channels independantly.

Kick panels are the best bet if youre not wanting to hack up your dash. Youll want them mounted as far forward as possible.

As for the aiming, using the HU is fine cause all youre trying to do is see how they sound at different angles. What you want to look for is for the center image to be as close to the middle of the dash as possible. The actual definition is for it to be equal distance from the left and right boundaries of the stage but 9 times out of 10. this is directly in the middle of the dash or maybe just a smidge to the right of center. Pay attention to focus. The center image should be heard only from the center point and not have any bleed over from the right side. If the image seems to be all over the place, try swapping the polarity of one of the mids and see if that focuses it up.

For the tweeter, for best tonal accuracy, its best to mount them with the mids. However, if you do that and your mids are in the floor, your stage will be in the middle of the dash at best. The best place to mount the tweets IMO is in the A pillars. I have mine mounted about 1 inch higher than the highest point on the dash. My stage isnt super high but its above the dash. Ideal is to be eye level which is usually halfway up the dash. You can get this too if you stick the tweets high enough so its best to experiment with placement on these as well.

To achieve the best SQ possible youre going to have to get a processor. The Alpine H701 or the Rockford Fosgate 360.2 are really the only 2 options available. A generic EQ wont work. You need crossover, time alignment and EQ settings for EACH channel INDEPENDANTLY because things just aint equal in a car.

dolfan87

Mac, thank you. I believe you have helped me here in the past, as I remember the name.

It's gonne be tough putting the tweets in the pillars. There is very little room on my Mach for that. I DO have the orginal dash speaker location is that is in anyway possible. High up on the door is possible as well.

You don't have any experience with the ID components do you?

edit The stock speaker location is in the center of the dash

MacLeod

No. Ive been using Polk for about 5 years now and MB Quart before that. Im a one brand type a guy!

The first thing you should worry about is the mids. They are the most important speaker in your setup. The tweeters are only good for imaging cues but the actual staging and imaging presence comes from the mids.

Get them placed and angled where they sound and image the best. Then try all kinds of locations with the tweeters until you get some decent height out of them. The doors might work. Hell you may even be able to make em work in the kick panels. It can be done but its generally a lot easier to do it in the A's or dash.

dolfan87

Oh I am willing to cut the dash...the thing is just beginning to crack, and I know I will need to replace it soon anyway.

Ok, I'll worry about the mids first. In fact I will use this thread to post pics of the install as it goes.

1996blackmax

What HU are you using? If you mount the tweeters on the A-pillars or maybe high on the doors you may find that things between the mid and the tweeter are not coming together very nicely. If you do encounter that, you may want to invert the phase on the tweeters to give you a little fuller sound.

There are pros and cons to different tweeter locations, but one of the things that can happen when you put the tweeters in the kicks is that you also can get a rainbow effect with your soundstage. Experimentation is key here though, even little changes in the direction of your drivers can have an impact. If you have a HU with an EQ and time aligment features it will help out quite a bit.

dolfan87

1996blackmax wrote:

What HU are you using? If you mount the tweeters on the A-pillars or maybe high on the doors you may find that things between the mid and the tweeter are not coming together very nicely. If you do encounter that, you may want to invert the phase on the tweeters to give you a little fuller sound.

There are pros and cons to different tweeter locations, but one of the things that can happen when you put the tweeters in the kicks is that you also can get a rainbow effect with your soundstage. Experimentation is key here though, even little changes in the direction of your drivers can have an impact. If you have a HU with an EQ and time aligment features it will help out quite a bit.

I am running an Alpine 9820XM for now...but I was seriously looking at the Eclipse CD5000. I see you are using the 7000, how do you like it?

1996blackmax

I think it is a very nice HU. It is still not the easiest thing to use, due to the controls inside the volume knob, but after a little while you get used to it. The DAC's are from Burr Brown, and are 24bit. Alot of companies say they have 24bit DAC's, but are actually using 1bit DAC that "upconvert" the information to 24bits. To some this does not matter, but it is still nice to know what you are getting. I think for tweaking your sound, it is a hard unit to beat. I currently have it in the standard 4speaker + subwoofer mode. This gives me pretty extensive tuning options, which include- individual time alignment for each speaker (which also includes controling the output on each individual speaker), a 7-band PEQ, and adjustable x-over points (for front, rear, and sub). This HU also does something that is pretty cool. While not as accurate as an RTA, the function that allows you to take a snapshot of your system is very helpful. You will need to buy a microphone that goes with this unit to use this function, about $20 bucks. Basically the HU sends out pink noise through your system and takes a snapshot of your system's frequency response with the mic (plugged in into the left channel of the auxillary input). This will help you narrow down any problem areas that you may have, so that you can then tackle them with the PEQ.

I think the HU really shines if you put it in the 3-way mode. This will change the RCA outputs from front, rear, & sub to tweeter, midrange, and low. You will gain some PEQ bands in the process. You get 5 bands for the tweeters, 5 bands for the mids, and one band for the sub. You will also be able to have the time alignment feature, and run an active setup with your components if you wanted, with adjustable frequencies and slopes.


I am probably leaving out some details, but that should give you an idea of what it can do.

As for the CD5000, while I think the CD5000 is a nice unit, I do not think it is a good bargain. The sound tuning options on it are very limited, nothing like the CD7000. For the same amount of money you could get something with better tuning capabilities. The Pioneer 880PRS comes to mind here.

dolfan87

Ok, well that settles that. I have the Eclipse 21010 EQ wired up, and I can take the Alpine, and the EQ, and sell them both on E bay, and step up to a much better HU.

I like the features the 7000 present, and your write up was very informative.

Sounds like I need to go pull the deck and eq.

1996blackmax

Take a look at Pioneer's stuff as well. I think the Pioneer HU I mentioned is a very nice unit.

Also, you may want to wait on pulling the stuff out ..... we should be seeing what's available from different companies very soon, and you may find something you like in the new gear. You could also look at this time as being the time to get a good deal as retailers will be looking to unload last year's stuff to make room for the new gear.

dolfan87

Well I have always been a fan of Pioneer, Alpine, and Eclipse...BUT I am a bit old school, and haven't kept up with the industry very well.

My last serious system was running the OLD (new at the time) PPI art series (the finned amps, not the smooth ones) 2150 tp four kicker 8's, a 2075 to pioneer mids and a 2030 to my pioneer tweets. I was using the Pioneer deck (don't recall the model number) that dropped the face down to reveal the tape deck behind it...lol.

ANYWAY, I will do some more research, but I do love the time alignment feature that the eclipse provides, along with the eq features. It sounds like it will flow with my system considering I am bi-amping the components.

You guys are great...mucho appreciated.

1996blackmax

I actually had the non-Premier version of the DEH-P860, the DEH-P8600 (I tried it a couple of times). Same unit minus 2 volts in the preouts. While that unit was a nice HU, I find the Eclipse unit actually easier to use. I did not understand why in those models Pioneer made it a pain to just adjust the subwoofer volume. Having to go into the menu section just to adjust the sub does not make sense. To this day I think the easiest HU's to use Alpine

MacLeod

If you have the money, you may want to check into getting a processor. The best is the Alpine H701 and it can usually be had at a local shop for $700. Get it and the Alpine 9857 with optical output for $350 and youll have more control than you ever thought possible!

1996blackmax

I have long used Alpine HU's with Alpine processors. The last two that I had used fiberoptic connections between the HU, cd changer, and processor. I will see what Alpine has to offer a little ways down the road. I recently tought about getting a CDA-7998R (European version) with the fiberoptic output and pairing it up with an Alpine PXA-H600. That would be one sweet setup. That thing had 20bit Sine Magnitude Burr Brown DAC's, which I am pretty sure had something to do with the sweet sound that the unit produced.

Here is a little info on it, some of the pages do not work anymore, but enough to give you some ideas....

http://web.archive.org/web/19990507054432/www.alpine.com.au/catalogs/proc6.html


http://web.archive.org/web/19990424075822/www.alpine.com.au/promo/tpsound.html




The Pioneer DEQ-P9 is also a very, very nice processor.

It is nice though to have all the processing power that HUs like the CD7000 have to offer now in one package. I think they provide more than enough flexibility for most systems out there.

MacLeod

1996blackmax wrote:

It is nice though to have all the processing power that HUs like the CD7000 have to offer now in one package. I think they provide more than enough flexibility for most systems out there.

I used to think so too dude, but once I got the 700 and started playing with it, I cant believe how little control I had before. I mean, 31 bands or equalization, time correction in .05 ms increments, crossover, level and phase controls for ALL channels independant of each other is just awesome! Its the difference between driving to work and riding a bicycle.

dolfan87

The processor might be a touch out of range for me right now. As it is I went out and yanked my EQ and HU, and tossed them on e bay. I think with either the Pioneer, or the Eclipse HU, I will be able to get things in order with less in the car.

I like stealthy installs, and the EQ was sort of an issue anyway.

Here is a shot of the car. This was taken a few weeks ago, and I have finished a lot more since this (interior, and the marker lights are now installed) but when I get her all detailed up I will get some better shots.

1996blackmax

Forgot to mention that with my unit in custom mode I actually have alot more control of the x-over (can pick virtually any frequencies), PEQ (same as x-over), and TA . I also have .05ms increments. For my system 7 PEQ bands is enough. I can move them to where my problem areas are. If I need more I can just switch over to the other mode and get 11 bands.

1996blackmax

Sweet ride there...

dolfan87

Thanks DSkip...it's been a long road with that car, but I think it's turning out awesome. 500 horse 393ci Windsor, 4 wheel disc, power rack and pinion, Tremec TKO 5 speed, blah blah blah...lol.

I am excited about the install, but I want the kick pods to turn out clean and looking almost factory. I think I am going to have some serious learning ahead of me.

edit Thanks BlackMax as well.

dolfan87

MacLeod wrote:

I used to think so too dude, but once I got the 700 and started playing with it, I cant believe how little control I had before. I mean, 31 bands or equalization, time correction in .05 ms increments, crossover, level and phase controls for ALL channels independant of each other is just awesome! Its the difference between driving to work and riding a bicycle.

I found the processor for 395.00 on e bay, and the HU for 285.00. I might be able to swing that.

Now, my question is, do I set up a center channel, rear speakers in order to utilize the surround? Which requires more amps?

Or do I just use it for the time correction, phase, eq, ect.?

You guys are great...thanks for all the help.

MacLeod

I HIGHLY recommend against Ebay. Run down to your local shop that carries Alpine with $650 in cash in your hands and I guarantee you that youll walk out with a 701.

I would skip the center channel. I know its all the rage but 5.1 in a car is stupid.

Keep the 2 channel thing going. That pure SQ. You can still use rear speakers if you want your passengers to have tunes but if not, stick to front stage only.

exalted512

ebay isnt bad as long as youre buying new from a reputable seller. 1 year warranties are also nice as well and a lot of ebay companies now offer that.
-Cody

MacLeod

Yeah, but why buy a processor for $600 then pay $75 in shipping and take a chance that the one you get is actually a brand new one and that if it does have a problem you may be able to get a replacement within 3 or 4 months, when you can go buy one over the counter from an authorized dealer and have full backing and blessing of the manufacturer?

Ive been looking around on Ebay a lot lately for gear and honestly, I cant find anything thats really any cheaper than if I just went and haggled with a dealer or picked up a great sale at Crutchfield.

For instance, Im drooling over the Alpine 9860 that on clearance from Crutchfield or $300!! Brand spanking new, no shipping, factory warranty! Look one up on Ebay - $315 w/$20 shipping.

Im not denying you can find good prices on some stuff, but I would rather do some snooping around and haggling with my local shop and pay almost the same than to take my chances on Ebay.

dolfan87

I finally decided on the CD7000, and I got it for 480.00 shipped with a one year warranty. Decided on this unit based on the features vs space limitations, and overall pricing.

The processor would of been sweet for the extra EQ bands, but I had to make a compromise simply because funds are getting a tad tight.

Hopefully I will be happy with the 7000.

dolfan87

Ok finally I have figured out what I am going to run. DVA-9860 with the H701 processor. Everything is here, and the install began over the weekend. I started in the trunk.

Dynomatted everything, and tried out the original Dynomat on the trunk floor. Hated the stuff, and used the Extreme everywhere else.



Next I cut the floor piece out of 1/2" MDF.



Covered it in black leather...



Began the amp rack. Started with the amp board itself, again 1/2" mdf.



Next I started the amp rack cover, and had to do it twice because I mis calculated the hinge reliefs. Even after I cut the second piece, I still made the reliefs to deep, so I had to fill them in a bit. It's ok, cause it is covered too.





Wrapped in leather. the amp rack will be along the front wall of the trunk 9closest to the back seat) facing the trunk opening.



I will install the rack today, and move on to the sides. The H701 will probably go on the passenger side of the trunk in a similar mounting board as the amps.

I may glass it in as well, haven't decided.

I need opinions on if you guys think some soft blue LED's mounted on the amp board would be cool. It would only illuminate the gap around the amps. I can't figure out if it would look a little over the top on a clean and classy install.

Thoughts?

Gram

MacLeod

Dude, that is excellent work. Very clean, classy and stealthy. Just the kind of installs I like best and wish I could do!!

Keep up the good work and keep the pictures coming!

dolfan87

MacLeod wrote:

Dude, that is excellent work. Very clean, classy and stealthy. Just the kind of installs I like best and wish I could do!!

Keep up the good work and keep the pictures coming!

Thanks Mac! It's been your help that has got me into that Alpine DVA and processor. for just over 700.00!

I didn't get much done today because something took longer than I thought it would. Mounting the amp rack and cover INTO the car I ran into a couple snags. I pressed on though, and got it installed and wired up just before dark.



Subwoofer goes in this corner. I have the Image Dynamics IDQ D4 12". I bought a Polk/Momo 12" grill so the amps would match the grill, but it looks stupid with a I.D. sub in there. I am seriously considering selling the IDQ for a Momo DVC 12". I just don't want to give up the sound quality the IDQ provides. Oh what to do.



Still looking for suggestions on the LED's around the inside of the amp rack to provide light through the gap around the amps.

Gram

1996blackmax

Very nice work!

I hear you about the Dynamat Original...it just sucks. I think the reason is that it's asphalt based.

exalted512

Shouldve went with second skin

Looks good. I say hook up the LEDs. If you dont like the way they look, you can always just unplug them. We cant tell you if they look good or not, thats up to you.

Great work so far, very clean.

Why not sell the IDQ for a SR 10?
-Cody

1996blackmax

Those I.D. subs do sound very nice....

dolfan87

Yes they do. I guess I will just make it work with the IDQ. Maybe I will pick up a MOMO DVC at some point and just swap it out to see the difference.

More pics tomorrow. I am going to fiberglass the back half of the sub enclosure, with a flat MDF baffle in front. I'll countersink the sub and grill.