Of interest to gear heads....

Frank Z
Frank Z Posts: 5,860
edited March 2007 in The Clubhouse
Dropped off a 4.0 block, 4.2 crank & rods at the machine shop a few days ago.
Hope to get the port/polish done on the cylinder head soon too, then it's off to the shop for a little tweaking.

I'm hoping for 265-275hp, 300ft torque.

The motor will use a '99 intake with equal length runners, 21-24 lb injectors and the throttle body is going to get massaged as well. I haven't decided 100% on the cam yet, but I'm getting close.

Valves are out.
2rddxjo.jpg

Before I started grinding.
4hjckec.jpg

4gxtyz6.jpg

Block after the hot tank.
3yx2bra.jpg

43p7tdk.jpg

2lcpnyq.jpg

After a little grinding this evening.
2ic6r6g.jpg


I'm really looking forward to getting this beast on the engine stand and stuffing it full of new parts.:D
9/11 - WE WILL NEVER FORGET!! (<---<<click)
2005-06 Club Polk Football Pool Champion!! :D
Post edited by Frank Z on
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  • strider
    strider Posts: 2,568
    edited November 2006
    That looks like it'll be a fun winter project. For your Jeep, I presume?
    Wristwatch--->Crisco
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  • PolkThug
    PolkThug Posts: 7,532
    edited November 2006
    Do you have a header?
    Never Forget
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  • Frank Z
    Frank Z Posts: 5,860
    edited November 2006
    Strider,
    Yeah, it's for Debbie's Jeep. I hope to have it together and in the jeep in about 2-3 weeks. It all depends on the weather and time.

    PT,
    I'll be using an OEM exhaust (header, not a cast manifold).
    9/11 - WE WILL NEVER FORGET!! (<---<<click)
    2005-06 Club Polk Football Pool Champion!! :D
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  • Strong Bad
    Strong Bad Posts: 4,278
    edited November 2006
    Thats very cool Frank! Have a ball man!

    We want to see naked pics of the polished goodies when you get them back. (that doesn't sound right at all)


    John
    No excuses!
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  • strider
    strider Posts: 2,568
    edited November 2006
    Fun stuff, isn' it? After the holidays are paid for I'll be starting a search for front and rear third members to swap into my truck. Hopefully I'll be able to find an electrically locking rear with 4:30's to put in. If I can find a front diff with the same ratio and auto hubs I'll be able to have selectable lockers front and rear for the same price as 1 ARB.
    Wristwatch--->Crisco
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  • audiobliss
    audiobliss Posts: 12,518
    edited November 2006
    Frank Z wrote:
    I'll be using an OEM exhaust (header, not a cast manifold).
    What? Why?! Get you a nice SS Banks or Borla header and slap on there!!

    Great project, Mr. Z. Why are you stopping at just 4.2L? Why not more? More? More?! Ahem, excuse me...

    Hurry up and get it all back together...I wanna see more pics...and testimonials about how fast she is...!...err, how well she crawls up the rocks...

    How many miles does the block have on it? You using the same pistons? What's the compression gonna be? About what will this set you back?
    George Grand wrote: »
    Jstas wrote: »
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    Wonder WTF happened to the rest of my money.
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  • Jstas
    Jstas Posts: 14,842
    edited November 2006
    Frank, give me a little bit, I have a friend who has a vendor he's dealt with in the past to get parts for I6 engines. If he can get me the website URL, you might be able to get yourself a long tube header and forgoe the manifold. You might also be able to pick up an intake more suited to a ported head too. It'll be difficult to reach your power goals with stock manifolds.


    Audiobliss, the 4.0L block doesn't handle much more displacement without serious machine work and sleeving the cylinder block. The biggest benefit to bigger displacement is building low RPM torque which most I6 engines already do in droves. Bigger is nice but it's not always the best.
    Expert Moron Extraordinaire

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  • audiobliss
    audiobliss Posts: 12,518
    edited November 2006
    Jstas wrote:
    Bigger is nice but it's not always the best.
    :eek: :confused::(

    I'll have to think on that one!
    George Grand wrote: »
    Jstas wrote: »
    Simple question. If you had a cool million bucks, what would you do with it?
    Wonder WTF happened to the rest of my money.
    In Use
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    Klipsch RF-82ii, RC-62ii, RS-42ii, RW-10d
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    Rotel RCD-02, Yamaha KX-W900U, Sony ST-S500ES, Denon DP-7F
    Pro-Ject Phono Box MKII, Parasound P/HP-850, ASL Wave 20 monoblocks
    Klipsch RF-35, RB-51ii
    [Car Audio]
    Pioneer Premier DEH-P860MP, Memphis 16-MCA3004, Boston Acoustic RC520
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  • Frank Z
    Frank Z Posts: 5,860
    edited November 2006
    This is a stroker motor. The block is getting bored .030" and align bored, head is getting decked and a 3 angle valve job when I'm done porting it decked. The 12 counterweight crank (approx. 80lbs) and 707 connecting rods are from a late 70's 258, the block is from a 96 Cherokee, mileage is unknown. The crank is being turned approx. .020 and the whole shebang will be balanced.

    Total displacement will be 4.6l using Sealed Power cast hypereutectic pistons and moly rings.

    The stock exhaust manifold breaths very well, so much so that the down pipe has a dent in it from the factory to increase back pressure.
    9/11 - WE WILL NEVER FORGET!! (<---<<click)
    2005-06 Club Polk Football Pool Champion!! :D
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  • Frank Z
    Frank Z Posts: 5,860
    edited November 2006
    audiobliss wrote:
    What's the compression gonna be? About what will this set you back?
    9.5:1 compression. The cost is still TBD.
    9/11 - WE WILL NEVER FORGET!! (<---<<click)
    2005-06 Club Polk Football Pool Champion!! :D
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  • schwarcw
    schwarcw Posts: 7,338
    edited November 2006
    Ahhhhhh! The smell of gas and oil! Good luck and have fun!:)
    Carl

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  • audiobliss
    audiobliss Posts: 12,518
    edited November 2006
    Frank Z wrote:
    9.5:1 compression.
    Ha, interesting; that's fairly mild.
    Frank Z wrote:
    The cost is still TBD.
    To be discovered? Sounds like a dangerous way to do things! :p
    George Grand wrote: »
    Jstas wrote: »
    Simple question. If you had a cool million bucks, what would you do with it?
    Wonder WTF happened to the rest of my money.
    In Use
    PS3, Yamaha CDR-HD1300, Plex, Amazon Fire TV Gen 2
    Pioneer Elite VSX-52, Parasound HCA-1000A
    Klipsch RF-82ii, RC-62ii, RS-42ii, RW-10d
    Epson 8700UB
    In Storage
    [Home Audio]
    Rotel RCD-02, Yamaha KX-W900U, Sony ST-S500ES, Denon DP-7F
    Pro-Ject Phono Box MKII, Parasound P/HP-850, ASL Wave 20 monoblocks
    Klipsch RF-35, RB-51ii
    [Car Audio]
    Pioneer Premier DEH-P860MP, Memphis 16-MCA3004, Boston Acoustic RC520
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,137
    edited November 2006
    When you said gear heads I thought you meant audio gear.:o Good luck it looks like a project that will take some time.
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  • Frank Z
    Frank Z Posts: 5,860
    edited November 2006
    schwarcw,
    It's all about fun. I get to wrench and teach my kids how to build a strong motor.

    AB,
    To Be Determined. I still have a few items to compare before making a final decision. The price isn't set in stone because there are always variables. Different camshaft grinds lead to different valve lifts which affect how far the valves are pushed into the cylinder which affects piston dish size or cylinder decking or head gasket thickness which affects compression ratio and quench height which affects the octane rating which affects engine knock.....

    I'm having a ball!!

    Currently I'm tring to determine the best camshaft grind for optimal torque at the lower end. Whatever grind I settle on, the cam will be retarded 4deg for even more umph when needed.

    9.5:1 compression isn't mild by any stretch. Keep in mind that this motor is going to be street legal and in my wifes grocery wagon. She'll be able scale a sheer cliff and accelarate while climbing, smoke 5.0 mustangs off the line, and shake windows a half block away...but a grocery wagon none the less.:cool:
    9/11 - WE WILL NEVER FORGET!! (<---<<click)
    2005-06 Club Polk Football Pool Champion!! :D
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  • Frank Z
    Frank Z Posts: 5,860
    edited November 2006
    hearingimpared wrote:
    When you said gear heads I thought you meant audio gear.:o Good luck it looks like a project that will take some time.
    Well it does have 4 Polks, a Pioneer head unit, and an Apline amp.:D

    Hope to have it together in about 3 weeks or less.
    9/11 - WE WILL NEVER FORGET!! (<---<<click)
    2005-06 Club Polk Football Pool Champion!! :D
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  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,137
    edited November 2006
    Frank Z wrote:
    Well it does have 4 Polks, a Pioneer head unit, and an Apline amp.:D

    Hope to have it together in about 3 weeks or less.

    Great stuff Frank. . . Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours.:)
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  • audiobliss
    audiobliss Posts: 12,518
    edited November 2006
    Sounds like a fun project, for sure!
    Frank Z wrote:
    9.5:1 compression isn't mild by any stretch.
    No? *scratches head* I guess I'm just confused. What's compression on a stock 4.0?
    Frank Z wrote:
    She'll be able scale a sheer cliff and accelarate while climbing, smoke 5.0 mustangs off the line
    *drool* I want one, I want one!
    George Grand wrote: »
    Jstas wrote: »
    Simple question. If you had a cool million bucks, what would you do with it?
    Wonder WTF happened to the rest of my money.
    In Use
    PS3, Yamaha CDR-HD1300, Plex, Amazon Fire TV Gen 2
    Pioneer Elite VSX-52, Parasound HCA-1000A
    Klipsch RF-82ii, RC-62ii, RS-42ii, RW-10d
    Epson 8700UB
    In Storage
    [Home Audio]
    Rotel RCD-02, Yamaha KX-W900U, Sony ST-S500ES, Denon DP-7F
    Pro-Ject Phono Box MKII, Parasound P/HP-850, ASL Wave 20 monoblocks
    Klipsch RF-35, RB-51ii
    [Car Audio]
    Pioneer Premier DEH-P860MP, Memphis 16-MCA3004, Boston Acoustic RC520
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  • Frank Z
    Frank Z Posts: 5,860
    edited November 2006
    Stock is 8.8:1

    I'll build ya one... the price is TBD.:D

    Heres a link for a stroker for JP Magazine from Golen Engine Service. They get better than $3k for their long block.
    9/11 - WE WILL NEVER FORGET!! (<---<<click)
    2005-06 Club Polk Football Pool Champion!! :D
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  • audiobliss
    audiobliss Posts: 12,518
    edited November 2006
    Frank Z wrote:
    Stock is 8.8:1

    I'll build ya one... the price is TBD.:D

    Heres a link for a stroker for JP Magazine from Golen Engine Service. They get better than $3k for their long block.
    Oooh, nice link. ;)
    George Grand wrote: »
    Jstas wrote: »
    Simple question. If you had a cool million bucks, what would you do with it?
    Wonder WTF happened to the rest of my money.
    In Use
    PS3, Yamaha CDR-HD1300, Plex, Amazon Fire TV Gen 2
    Pioneer Elite VSX-52, Parasound HCA-1000A
    Klipsch RF-82ii, RC-62ii, RS-42ii, RW-10d
    Epson 8700UB
    In Storage
    [Home Audio]
    Rotel RCD-02, Yamaha KX-W900U, Sony ST-S500ES, Denon DP-7F
    Pro-Ject Phono Box MKII, Parasound P/HP-850, ASL Wave 20 monoblocks
    Klipsch RF-35, RB-51ii
    [Car Audio]
    Pioneer Premier DEH-P860MP, Memphis 16-MCA3004, Boston Acoustic RC520
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  • Jstas
    Jstas Posts: 14,842
    edited November 2006
    Frank, check these guys out...

    http://www.cliffordperformance.net/

    They have alot of go-fast goodies and specialize in inline engines from quite a few companies, Jeep/AMC included.
    Expert Moron Extraordinaire

    You're just jealous 'cause the voices don't talk to you!
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  • MSALLA
    MSALLA Posts: 1,602
    edited November 2006
    Are you going to port match the intake to the heads? To get that kind of power you will need a pretty large cam. That means overlap wich will let you run a higher comp. ratio (10 or 10.5:1) and still be ok on pump gas. Did I mis read you or are you going to run an aftermarket header with a stock exhaust to the collector? That would let you breath well and still keep it on the quite side.

    P.S. didn't see it in your post but ,since your having all this work done to the block, you should have it magnafluxed first to be sure of no hairline cracks or weak spots.
    Michael


    Samsung 50" HD DLP
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    Sony BDP300
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    Lsi7's rear
    Lsic center
    12.1 SVS driver in 4.53 cuft. tube
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  • Frank Z
    Frank Z Posts: 5,860
    edited November 2006
    I'm in the process of port matching the head. the stock header will be used, unless I find a crack in mine. I replaced the stock muffler with a Flowmaster Delta 40. The stock exhaust is 2.5", so other than possibly replacing the downpipe at some point, there's no need to do anything else right away.

    10:1 or 10.5:1 CR isn't feasible. The altitude here is above 6000' and we regularly drive at 10k' to 13k'. Although the ECM can compensate for lower air density, the thin air doesn't make that kind of ratio a good idea. Keep in mind that your pump gas and mine are not the same. Regular unleaded here is 85 Octane, mid grade is 87, Premium is only 91. I really don't want to have to add Octane Booster every time I fill up.
    9/11 - WE WILL NEVER FORGET!! (<---<<click)
    2005-06 Club Polk Football Pool Champion!! :D
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  • Frank Z
    Frank Z Posts: 5,860
    edited November 2006
    I guess I should have started this thread with a disclaimer. Oh well, better late than never.
    ***DISCLAIMER***
    I'm about as far from a stroker/motor expert as you can get. There probably won't be any profound revelations or flashes of brilliance anywhere in this thread. Everything you see and read hear can be found on the WWW with a little time behind the keyboard. Please don't mistake this thread as an attempt to impress anyone with my build-up. It's simply an attempt to share a project my family and I have been wanting to do for a long time. It's here for entertainment purposes only. If you learn something...IT'S NOT MY FAULT!!:D

    In order to gain a few more ponies and maybe a little torque as well I opted to port the heads. I could have had the work done for a few more bucks, but I figured WTH! I'll give it a shot.

    This first one is a close-up of the head before grinding. Take a look at the circular area, thats where the exhaust manifold mates to the head. Not a very good match.
    40kvbl3.jpg
    This one shows the head after opening up the intake and exhaust ports so they more closely match the intake and exhaust manifolds.
    2vnla4j.jpg

    This one is the '99 manifold after removing some material from the outlets. I'm not done with it yet. The aluminum comes off very fast so a soft touch is needed.
    2vw6b08.jpg


    I dropped off the cylinder head yesterday at the shop to be tanked, decked, CC'd, and a 3 angle valve job. I talked to the owner for a little while, he's expecting the remainder of the parts today or tomorrow and should have all of the machining done by the end of the week. WOOT!!:beer: The crank is back from the grinder, it needed .030" removed from the journals to clean them up. Turns out the front journal was not concentric with the rear journal. Not typical by any means, but not exactly surprising either. OEM components are never perfect.


    More pics coming soon.

    All comments, suggestions, or questions are welcome.
    9/11 - WE WILL NEVER FORGET!! (<---<<click)
    2005-06 Club Polk Football Pool Champion!! :D
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  • MSALLA
    MSALLA Posts: 1,602
    edited November 2006
    Looks good. I never did a build up on a 6 before. When I used to port the heads,I'd use the intake gasket as a guide. Seemed to work well and gave a point of ref. to do the intake the same. Our gas is the same as yours. Using a large cam lets you bump the comp. up some due to the timing curve and the cam's overlap bleeding of some comp. during rotation. Your altitude makes that a dangerous game to play so I think your right.
    Michael


    Samsung 50" HD DLP
    Yamaha RX-V2500
    (2) Outlaw 200
    Adcom GFA 555
    Sony BDP300
    Denon 2900 DVD
    Lsi9's mains
    Lsi7's rear
    Lsic center
    12.1 SVS driver in 4.53 cuft. tube
    Harmony 880
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  • Frank Z
    Frank Z Posts: 5,860
    edited November 2006
    I stopped by the machine shop again today (it's only a half block from one of my vendors). Robbi informed me that my compression was going to be a bit higher than I anticipated. I had originally planned on 9.5:1 but it seems that I'm going to be a closer to 9.9:1...maybe as high as 10.4:1. Gonna have to buy Premium Gas after the motor goes in.:eek:

    FWIW, I've re-calc'd the engine spec's using the spread sheet at MADXJ.COM. This is the only way I could post it...
    29zapnd.jpg


    FWIW, I went with a Crane Cam and lifters, #753905

    Turns out the block and the head were both sagging in the middle, just a bit though. Decking the block and head solved that problem.
    Here's the block after decking.
    2aaipat.jpg
    Jerry has busy grinding the valves and setting the stem height while I was there...
    2qk8120.jpg
    9/11 - WE WILL NEVER FORGET!! (<---<<click)
    2005-06 Club Polk Football Pool Champion!! :D
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  • Frank Z
    Frank Z Posts: 5,860
    edited December 2006
    Talked to the shop to the shop the other day, seems the Crane valve springs that were ordered didn't come with retainers or locks, and the retainers and locks have been discontinued as well. WTF?!?! After talking it over with Robbie the new game plan is to spot-face the head to accept very common Chevy SB valve springs that are suited for the lift of the camshaft.
    Block is now Decked and Bored...
    35krkm1.jpg

    Scored nicely at the bone yard today. Harmonic dampener, flexplate and a set of Dana30 axle shafts with unit bearing hubs for a whopping $40. The flex plate and dampener are at the shop so everything can be ballanced properly. The cylinder is done. The chevy valve springs are in and Robbie was able to reuse the stock retainers and locks. Spring pressure is right at 110 lbs. The valves required a little machining on the face so the head was re-CC'd. After going over the numbers Robbie suggested going to a different piston to get the compression down a bit closer to the 9.5:1 ratio I was shooting for.
    9/11 - WE WILL NEVER FORGET!! (<---<<click)
    2005-06 Club Polk Football Pool Champion!! :D
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  • audiobliss
    audiobliss Posts: 12,518
    edited December 2006
    Sounds like it's all coming together pretty nicely!
    George Grand wrote: »
    Jstas wrote: »
    Simple question. If you had a cool million bucks, what would you do with it?
    Wonder WTF happened to the rest of my money.
    In Use
    PS3, Yamaha CDR-HD1300, Plex, Amazon Fire TV Gen 2
    Pioneer Elite VSX-52, Parasound HCA-1000A
    Klipsch RF-82ii, RC-62ii, RS-42ii, RW-10d
    Epson 8700UB
    In Storage
    [Home Audio]
    Rotel RCD-02, Yamaha KX-W900U, Sony ST-S500ES, Denon DP-7F
    Pro-Ject Phono Box MKII, Parasound P/HP-850, ASL Wave 20 monoblocks
    Klipsch RF-35, RB-51ii
    [Car Audio]
    Pioneer Premier DEH-P860MP, Memphis 16-MCA3004, Boston Acoustic RC520
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  • Frank Z
    Frank Z Posts: 5,860
    edited December 2006
    Yeah, it really is. The crankshaft finally made it back from the grinder and it looks very good. Darn thing is smooth as a babies bumm.

    I really wanted to get started on the assembly this weekend but if I have to wait (and I do), so be it. I'll be in the garage in the evenings once everythings done. A thorough inspection of all the parts and re-cleaning are first on the list.
    9/11 - WE WILL NEVER FORGET!! (<---<<click)
    2005-06 Club Polk Football Pool Champion!! :D
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  • MSALLA
    MSALLA Posts: 1,602
    edited December 2006
    Keep us posted. This site already makes me spend money on audio gear. Now it seems I'm headed for the car bug again. This site is a danger zone to my pocket.
    Michael


    Samsung 50" HD DLP
    Yamaha RX-V2500
    (2) Outlaw 200
    Adcom GFA 555
    Sony BDP300
    Denon 2900 DVD
    Lsi9's mains
    Lsi7's rear
    Lsic center
    12.1 SVS driver in 4.53 cuft. tube
    Harmony 880
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  • petrym
    petrym Posts: 1,912
    edited December 2006
    What a cool thread and great photos!

    (Looks at his Chrysler minivan engine and sighs)
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