Just in....Rumsfeld finally stepping down..

TroyD

brettw22 wrote:

When I saw that speech by Kerry, never for one second did I think that he was aiming that shot at the troops. What was even more amazing was that McCain was one of the first one's jumping on that comment. As I understood his apology, it was if it seemed that it came out that way, but he wasn't making any apology for his pinning much of this on his intended target, bush.

Those that got all wadded up about that are just looking to be pissy imo.......

I disagree. Kerry has long denegrated the military. While I agree that he probably didn't intend to insult us: One, he should have fixed it on the spot. Two, he REALLY shouldn't have acted like a petulant child.

However, There was no misinterpretation to be made. At face value, what he said should have gotten his **** kicked. He didn't stutter or miss a beat.

Last and most important, Bush has been hounded, particularly by Kerry, for being a moron that can't speak. The delicious irony is that Kerry is the one who can't seem to read a speech card.

BDT

exalted512

bikezappa wrote:

Shack

You are 100% correct it is all speculation.

However there are some facts that are less than speculation.

How many people have died?
How much the war has cost the US?
How many people are wounded for life?
How many people have lost there homes and jobs?

I'm glad you brought that up. If you do find those numbers, compare them to ANY other WAR that the US has been involved in.
-Cody

MacLeod

I have a message from the troops to John F'n Kerry.



Lastly, I have a message from Bush to everybody that voted for Democrats.

univera

Macleod, once again, you show that you can't have any kind of low key conversation. Pretty mature...I don't think anyone in this entire thread has flat out made any comments about Bush or any Republican that were super deragatory. In fact, I think everyone has stayed within reasonable lines considering the heated topics involved. Why taint a good spirited thread with this? This goes back to my comments about people who only want to divide this country.

I don't know if that photo is real or not (highly doubt it) but you aren't doing your party or yourself any justice by portraying the President in that light.

MacLeod

univera wrote:

Macleod, once again, you show that you can't have any kind of low key conversation. Pretty mature...I don't think anyone in this entire thread has flat out made any comments about Bush or any Republican that were super deragatory. In fact, I think everyone has stayed within reasonable lines considering the heated topics involved. Why taint a good spirited thread with this? This goes back to my comments about people who only want to divide this country.

I don't know if that photo is real or not (highly doubt it) but you aren't doing your party or yourself any justice by portraying the President in that light.

Jesus Christ dude. Get the sand out of your ****!

How the hell could you look at those pictures and take them as anything other than a joke?!?!

Lighten up.

bobman1235

For real. That's some funny **** right there.

exalted512

MacLeod wrote:

Jesus Christ dude. Get the sand out of your ****!

How the hell could you look at those pictures and take them as anything other than a joke?!?!

Lighten up.

Macleod, please stop with the profane language. I, and the others in this thread do not have a sense of humor and we are tired of your futile attempts at comedy.
-Cody

mrbigbluelight

exalted512 wrote:

Just like the dumb ones in the army fight the war;)
-Cody

I don't have a problem with the statement that Kerry made to a group of college students if he made it from the historical perspective of the 60's.

Why ? Because it was true.

Remember, that war started out with a lie (Gulf of Tonkin) and continued with multiple lies ("Light at the end of the tunnel", "I have a secret plan to end the war", "Domino Theory", body counts, "Your country needs you",
"Long-haired commies", etc).

You could get out of the war in several ways.

Get married and get a deferment. If I remember correctly, that option was beginning to be used too much. Girls were marrying boys strictly for the purpose of getting a total deferment or assignment to a non-combat duty station (Germany was a typical spot).

Go to college. That was eventually done away with because of great protest against the enormous injustice of sending the poor to war while allowing the rich to stay safe at home because mom and dad could afford to send them to school. The supporters of Big Brother justified the college deferment with the thought that, "Well, we do need the educated to run our country".

So: "Stay in school or you could wind up in Iraq" has a historical basis.
The deferment issues previously mentioned were EXACTLY what came to mind when I heard that statement. I honestly can't understand how ANYONE who was alive during the 60's didn't come to the same conclusion.

Why the big outrage over that statement then ? Because it touch a raw nerve, a nerve that is connected to the truth.

My son has not yet registered for Selective Service. I come from a long line of folks who have served in the military, who were and ARE strong supporters of this country. I've mentioned before of their level of service to the US; suffice it to say, there weren't any folks who got blisters on their **** from filling out forms in Topeka.
Yet I am firmly convinced that they would support his potential future as a draft dodger in this current situation. As do I.

So, yes, I TOTALLY support John Kerry's statement: "Stay in school or go to Iraq".

Because it is the truth.

TroyD

Why the big outrage over that statement then

One, because we ain't in 1966, we are in 2006 and the military of today is FAR different than it was in 1966. We are an all volunteer force. We ain't STUCK anywhere. If you are in uniform, you made a CHOICE to do so. We also ain't stupid. There are a LOT of folks running around in the service with higher education.

What ended the deferments was the end of the DRAFT!

There is no draft now. Nor will there be.

I've been civil to this point but the above posts is insulting. Obviously, you don't know me. You know jack about the men and women serving you, who do so so you can spout this sort of ignorant tripe.

Also, while the Gulf of Tonkin resolution allowed the escalation of the war...our involvement started nearly a decade earlier. The Truman Doctrine was the real rationale for the war.

I'm out on this conversation.

BDT

exalted512

mrbigbluelight wrote:

So, yes, I TOTALLY support John Kerry's statement: "Stay in school or go to Iraq".

Because it is the truth.

I dont know if you've noticed, but they don't have a draft anymore...

Also, what about the people that joined the armed forces to pay for college?

I'm sure all of our armed forces appreciate ignorant people like you that think if youre not smart enough to college, then the armed forces is the only way to go.
-Cody

TroyD

Good luck to your son getting student loans for college, btw.

BDT

ND13

Some of you need to read what you're writing, before you hit the reply tab. Some of it is just plain silly.

Holydoc

There is a huge difference between disagreeing whether a conflict is justified or not, than claiming that the men and women of the armed forces are anything but heroes. Anyone can have their own opinion of the war. However everyone who wakes up every day in the USA should respect those people who VOLUNTARILY fight it so that we can live in freedom. These men and women volunteer to stand in front of the bullets so that you and your family do not have to. Each one may have their own motive for why they joined the military but everyone does it with the common knowledge that they may have to die so that people like me and you can live. To me (and also to you) the members of the armed forces are all heroes.

To flatly state that if your country needed your help that you would encourage members of your family to tuck their tails between their legs and run away to hide is outrageous, insulting, and is the definition of a parasite.

Lord knows that I do not agree with every conflict or a lot of the tactics used to fight and support them. However there should never be any doubt that I respect and honor those men and women who volunteer to fight them for me.

bikezappa

Holydoc, I agree with everything you say. I also think every one on this thread agrees with your statement.

Clear perspective.

MacLeod

The military is better educated than the average public!

Nearly 100% of military officers have 4 year college degrees and almost 100% of non commissioned officers have high school diplomas.

But the biggest thing is that re-enlistment rates are EXCEEDING the Pentagon's retension goals. Kinda hard to be stuck when youre volunteering to go over there....and then volunteering to return!

But thats not unexpected as those that serve are our best and brightest and have a greater strength of character than the average Joe. Even tho I didnt have the nads to serve, I have the utmost repsect and admiration for those that do and Kerry's comments were an insult to them as were his comments about our troops terrorizing women and children in the dead of night or Murtha saying they were murdering civillians in cold blood, or Dick Durbin comparing them to **** and Stalin's henchmen.

tommyboy

Great statement holydoc

Big blue, I agree with your statement... if we lived back in 1968. The fact that there is no draft makes your statement (and Kerry's) mean nothing. and I hate comparing this war to vietnam, because in reality, they are two completely different wars with only one similarity.... we're losing(or don't have control, if you don't like the word losing...).

exalted512

we havent had a terrorist attack in 5 years, were not doing too bad
-Cody

brettw22

And before that we had OKC in '95 and WTC1 in '93......

Regardless, we're in a hornets nest all over that place, and we're certainly not decreasing the level of anger towards us........

mrbigbluelight

First let me say to any, or all , those who I may have offended: although it may not be clear, I am a firm supporter of the troops who serve. Aways have been, always will.

The purpose of this war, or "police action", or "armed conflict" was originally because of the threat of WMD's that Saddam supposedly possessed.
Chemical weapons and technology, nuclear weapons or technology, biological weapons and technology. That this, and previous administrations, had supplied.
Yet UN inspectors had demonstrated success in eliminating those very same items. DEMONSTRATED SUCCESS. Clearly verifiable.

So our government knew, or should have known, that there was no threat to the United States from WMD's.

The threat of terrorists, specifically radical Islamic terrorists, from Iraq ?
None. Saddam had clearly demonstrated no moral problems with eliminating any threats to his regime. He viewed Islamic terrorists (bin Laden et al) as a threat to his regime.

So, despite our govenment attempting to subtley link 9/11 to Saddam, there was no threat to the US from Saddam.
One could correctly say that our government never CONCRETELY stated that Saddam was behind 9/11. But Rumsfeld, Cheney, and Bush drew a line right up to that point, in unison, and stopped. If people made the connection, than was that Rumsfeld, Cheney, or Bush's fault ? I think ..... so.

Disagree with his war policies ? Be accused personally of "aiding the terrorists".
Be in a position of authority and disagree with his war policies, and have your wife outed as a CIA operative.
Be in a position of knowledge, and be vocal about there being no WMD's, and have your personal life assassinated (as was the UN chief weapons inspector).

So why did we enter this war, or "police action", or "armed conflict" ?

I don't know. I'm sincere about that, if you know please tell me. I'd venture a guess, though. Oil.

Were there other ways to accomplish the goal of securing oil ?
As I've said before, statesmanship on the level of FDR could have accomplished this. Statesmanship on ANY level might have have accomplished this.

So we go to war, on a lie.

And, if we are at war, than what sacrifices do we make at home ?
Do we raise taxes, to insure that ALL our troops are properly outfitted with the best equipment ? To insure that those that are wounded will not want for anything ? To insure that the families of those who make the supreme sacrifice will be properly taken care of ?
No, we don't. Why ? Because it would not be politically correct to raise taxes. So NEITHER party has the courage to promote that idea.

There's a term that originated back during the Vietnam War: "chickenhawk".
That's usually referenced to a politician who talks loudly and has no problem with sending YOUR child to war, but who wouldn't have the courage to do the same him/her self.
The Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld triumverate are, IMO, chickenhawks.
I view them with absolute disgust. I'll let the reader look up the military background of these gentleman. I'll repeat: absolute disgust. Feel free to research the amount of deferments these three received over the years.
(BTW, Billl Clinton's record is pretty disgusting, too, so have a look at that also).

There is no draft, rest assured that I am aware of that.
However, the process for Selective Service is in place.
By participating in that process, one condones the government's actions at the time.
A link to the essay by Henry David Thoreau might, or might not, provide some interesting reading.
http://www.cs.indiana.edu/statecraft/civ.dis.html

If the situation arose where the country was truly in danger from outside forces, and our existence were truly in danger, than the draft may be instituted again. At that point, my son would not worry about being drafted. His draft notice would have to be forwarded to whereever his present duty station was.

But, finally, I will reiterate my apology to those who took offense, if that offense is justified by my unclear writing which may have given the impression that I don't respect our military.
If my writings gave offense because of my opinions of our present government, its policies, and conduct of this war, than the offense will have to stand.


P.S. if nothing else, reference the military background of Dick Cheney.

P.P.S. I've mentioned before that one of my problems with Jane Fonda's conduct during the Vietnam War was that she was a person of power, and she abused that power to the detriment of those with less power, knowing full well she was protected from the consequences of her actions.
I put George Bush, Dick Cheney, and Donald Rumsfeld in the same category.

F1nut

Oil? I think not. We're not getting a drop from Iraq that I've heard about. More of a FU to Saddam and any others like him in the region and I've got no problems with that.

Demiurge

mrbigbluelight wrote:

First let me say to any....

I think you need to change your big blue light bulb...

MikeC78

This thread makes me laugh and then makes me frown.:(

I don't even know where to start on all this, I just find it quite amusing with some of these posts I read here.

Are any of you guys in Iraq or have you served in OIF?

FYI, I'm currently in Camp Blue Diamond Ramadi, Iraq as I type this.

Mike

Demiurge

Semper-Fi, Marine.

George Grand

My **** has belonged to somebody else for over thirty years amigo. That enough?

Holydoc

Mrbigbluelight,

I was one of the ones that misinterpreted your post. Thanks for setting me straight.

Mike,

<< Deleted previous response since it revealed too much personal information to be pertinent to this thread >>

I am not in Iraqi. :cool:

mrbigbluelight

No, I'm over here in the continental.

Best wishes for the continued safety of yourself and your fellow Marines and comrades.

TroyD

I've been in the neighborhood a few times...and a few other places over the past 15 years.

Best wishes.

BDT

TroyD

So: "Stay in school or you could wind up in Iraq" has a historical basis

I TOTALLY support John Kerry's statement: "Stay in school or go to Iraq". Because it is the truth.

QUOTE]

if that offense is justified by my unclear writing which may have given the impression that I don't respect our military.

Uh, I don't see what is unclear. It doesn't take intellect on the level of John Kerry to connect the dots that those of us in uniform are where we are at because we aren't bright enough to do something else.

If the situation arose where the country was truly in danger from outside forces, and our existence were truly in danger, than the draft may be instituted again. At that point, my son would not worry about being drafted. His draft notice would have to be forwarded to whereever his present duty station was

Lemme ask you, how many bombs did the Germans drop on the US in WWII?

statesmanship on the level of FDR could have accomplished this

STATESMANSHIP? Are you SERIOUS? The guy who locked up THOUSANDS of US citizens for absolutely ZERO reason.

I'm out, your post are the rantings of a person who isn't even willing to be the least bit objective. Probably still bitter about the 2000 election. One that has no idea what people in the military are REALLY like nor does he want to. Who thinks that his PITY on us is support and caring.



BDT

mrbigbluelight

MikeC78, you mentioned "FYI, I'm currently in Camp Blue Diamond Ramadi, Iraq as I type this. "

With proper restrictions on the transmission of military operations in mind, what is the deal with the ammo dump explosion at FOB Falcon ?
I've posted a video of the explosion elsewhere, taken by some Army personnel on patrol in Baghdad, and ...... whew !

univera

My final comments in this thread follow. I bowed out as I don't have time to deal with being angry over this stuff or responding to comments suggesting I have a ****. That just reinforces the my reference to the immature comment I made about the poster of that garbage. You won't find me returning fire with childish crap. I wanted a level headed conversation debate, not cut and paste You-tube posts that belong elsewhere.

And, I don't want to accidentally upset guys I'd like advice from or might want to buy stuff from. Especially guys like Troy who have conducted themselves with honor in this thread. Let me be clear: I have always been a strong supporter of the military, both in our troops and of spending. I thought Clinton was right in taking action in Yugoslavia. I thought Bush I was correct in going to Iraq/Kuwait. However; I believe we jumped the gun this time. As much as I want to, I disagree with Mr. Blue Light about diplomacy with Hussein, even though I believe our leadership has very little diplomatic skills. That still doesn't mean I thought we should jump feet first into conflict.

I still believe that there are tons of well educated, college graduates in the military. I never said otherwise. I do believe, however, that if you only have a high school diploma and DON'T want to attend or aren't cut out for college, the military becomes one of very few options for a lifetime of benefits both during and after service. How can anyone deny that one would with only a high school diploma would be hard pressed to find a job that had full insurance and healthcare benefits offered by the military? They are out there, but not in great supply. It's tough enough when one has a college degree.

I believe in my heart that's what Kerry was saying. Get a good education or your options might be limited. Those options might include the military if you want a secure and stable future with benefits. And, if that is the path you choose, you might (in Kerry's obvious opinion) be dragged into a war without merit and with no plausible end in site.

What's so wrong with that? If you want to believe he meant something else, your entitled. I'm not a big Kerry fan to begin with, so my level of bias isn't as much as it could be. I just try to look at things with an even eye. I know things aren't that simple, but I at least I try to be even minded. If I was misunderstood, my apologies as well.