Women's Rights

Demiurge

Early B. wrote:

If you want to believe that you evolved from an ape, feel free to do so.

He doesn't believe it, he was approaching it as fact since the overwhelming mentality of this board seems to be that evolution is fact, which it isn't. So, basically -- for the sake of argument. It's just as much of a faith as that all of this was created by a God or Gods. All you had to do was read the first sentence.

ND13

bobman1235 wrote:

Dont' equate spirituality with organized religion. All of what I spoke about above was about the organization / heirarchy of religion, not the "meat" of it. For example, the heirarchy of the Catholic church, with a Pope and bishops and blah blah, was created to mimic the heirarchy of the governmental systems of the time period. Nowhere in anyone's Bible is there mention of a Pope.

I wasn't referring to you. And I don't equate spirituality with religion, because I'm of the opinion that the majority of organized religions are so corrupt, they are beyond repair. With that said, I do believe in God and I maintain a one on one relationship with he/she and will attend certain churches from time to time. I believe that as long as you treat your fellow man as you want yourself and your family/loved ones to be treated, your doing what is expected of you in this stage of being.

cfrizz

How is any employer supposed to know whether a woman is infertile or not & why should it matter?

Thuggy how would you feel if your wife came home from an interview that she was very qualified for & told you the the interviewer asked her

"Are you planning on getting pregnant, or are you infertile?" "You already are pregnant? Sorry we don't want you. You cost too much money in insurance & you won't be here to work."

How would you feel towards any of that?

PolkThug wrote:

What about infertile women, should they get paid as much as men?

bobman1235

Fair enough. This topic is apparently volatile enough as it is without debating the merits of organized religion

Demiurge

cfrizz wrote:

How is any employer supposed to know whether a woman is infertile or not & why should it matter?

Thuggy how would you feel if your wife came home from an interview that she was very qualified for & told you the the interviewer asked her

"Are you planning on getting pregnant, or are you infertile?" "You already are pregnant? Sorry we don't want you. You cost too much money in insurance & you won't be here to work."

How would you feel towards any of that?

Because in your mystical view of the world money grows on trees, which it doesn't. Don't be so selfish, and look at the big picture.

ND13

bobman1235 wrote:

Fair enough. This topic is apparently volatile enough as it is without debating the merits of organized religion

TRUE DAT!!!:p

jdhdiggs

cfrizz wrote:

How is any employer supposed to know whether a woman is infertile or not & why should it matter?

Thuggy how would you feel if your wife came home from an interview that she was very qualified for & told you the the interviewer asked her

"Are you planning on getting pregnant, or are you infertile?" "You already are pregnant? Sorry we don't want you. You cost too much money in insurance & you won't be here to work."

How would you feel towards any of that?

Good lord, could you please try to look at it from the owners rather than an entitlement perspective. The owner could hire a pregnant lady, spend more money for insurance, pay for maternity leave, and might or might not have an employee after that. Or, you could hire the guy who will only leave iff you piss him off or he gets a better offer. Who is more of a business risk and expense? It's not a sexist position, but a purely economic one. Granted, no employer is no allowed to ask those questions anymore even though they are relevent from a business perspective. (Remember the business in your private life thread?)

Want a real life example? My wife can not do her job if we are even trying to have kids. Her job requires exposure to nuclear sources and lead. While the exposure is under the EPA health limits, it is there. Once she might have a child, she can not do her job because fetus exposure is a whole different ballgame. The law will be forcing her employer to pay her the same amount of money for another job that is of a lower pay scale and all the insurance. So now her company has to pay for an employee that can not do the job she was hired to do for up to the time she stops breast feeding or trying to have children. So they could be on the hook for years and years and not get any work out of her for the job for which she was hired. Do you think that's fair to the employer? I don't, nor does my wife.

jdhdiggs

PolkThug wrote:

What about infertile women, should they get paid as much as men?

Demiurge wrote:

Sure.

Damn Demi, you're brave. Any idea how much infertility drugs cost? You'd be on the hook for that as well....

jdhdiggs

ND13 wrote:

Because differences should not dictate your rights, MAYBE some opportunities, but not rights.

I'd agree with that 100%. The problem though is what items are defined as rights and what are choices/oppurtunities.

Demiurge

jdhdiggs wrote:

Damn Demi, you're brave. Any idea how much infertility drugs cost? You'd be on the hook for that as well....

LOL! Didn't say I was hiring any women. No positions available.

We got pinched by a woman who was hired, got all the training, healthcare, etc....and then she decided to have a 3rd child. Took her leave, and then decided to be a full time momma (good choice on her behalf, moms should be with their infant children whenever possible). Unfortunately it screws everyone else here in terms of how big the raises are, etc. It's not to say small businesess aren't making money, but they also extend themselves beyond belief. When you have customers like GM, Boeing, and Pratt & Whitney stringing you out 90 days for payment it becomes a problem on $20,000+ jobs.

But hey, I'm just an evil discriminating ****.

jdhdiggs

To be fair, we typically recommend a >70% female work force in some of our projects since their quality of work handling multiple tasks at the same time is vastly superior to men's. 100% women cause MASSIVE issues though... 70% seems to be the sweet spot in a lot of industries for the ideal workforce even taking the other outside risks into account.

cfrizz

I didn't know when working for a living became an entitlement.

You & your wife obviously have to make some tough decisions regarding work versus children. Most women have found that it is extremely difficult to do both well. Good luck!

My point is, until laws were enacted to protect women, men would constantly discriminate against women simply because they were women & not hire them at all. Or hire them, then fire them when they became pregnant.

Today they hire them but will still pay them less money (on average .74 to your 1.00)

If I am qualified to do a job then I should be hired to do the job. Regardless of the fact that I am in my childbearing years & might have a child.

MacLeod

I disagree that companies will pay women less than a man for the same job.

While its true that statistics show women earn less than men in specific fields, its also misleading mainly because they break the stats down by a general field rather than a specific job like say a department manager at Walmart or whatever. By using a general field they take into account all kinds of different companies and levels and basically average them out. This makes the finals stats misleading for a couple reasons.

For one, women take off time for having children and therefore will have less experience and will build up less seniority. Also, because of child bearing, women will tend to have less experience due to less years in that field.

Also, a lot of women in married households have a job as secondary income only and so they dont pursue promotions as vigorously as a man or single woman would. If a woman is raising children and her husband has a good job and she doesnt want to work 16 hours a day, she will be more likely to be happy in a middle management position while the man is the primary or sole income source and is out to make as many promotions, raises and climb as far as they can.

One last thing, women arent as cuthroat as men in business. The whole "nice guy finishing last" thing. Even a single mom wont be as likely to stab her fellow co-workers in the back as a man will and thus the man is likely to advance further and get more raises.

Now I cant find any stats on this but Id be willing to be that if you went out and looked at specific jobs rather than a specific field youd find the woman making as much as a man.

I just dont see a great inequality out there for women. In virtually every field you can think of, there are plenty of example of women that have made it to the top, are CEO's of top companies, managing empires, becoming zillionaires.

My best example is that the 2 most likely people to be our next President is Hillary Clinton and Condoleeza Rice! That just wouldnt be the case in a chauvinistic country.

unc2701

Mac- just about all the stat flaws you mention have been examined & controlled away. A woman with the same level of experience in the same job makes less. However, a few of the things you mention are possible explainations for this, but still aren't justifible. A woman might be more likely to keep a job where she isn't paid as much, but it isn't right that the same skills are rewarded less.

hearingimpared

ND13: And I don't equate spirituality with religion, because I'm of the opinion that the majority of organized religions are so corrupt, they are beyond repair. With that said, I do believe in God and I maintain a one on one relationship with he/she and will attend certain churches from time to time. I believe that as long as you treat your fellow man as you want yourself and your family/loved ones to be treated, your doing what is expected of you in this stage of being.

Christian "Religions" are man made perversions of the Bible. I can't speak for religions based on some other holy book or codex. I am a Christian. Not a Catholic, Protestant, Baptist, Jehovahs Witness etc, etc etc ad nauseum. I use the Bible as my guide for my morals and beliefs. I try to live a spiritual life. I believe we are all spiritual beings. Has anyone who is downing SPIRITUALITY read the Bible??? Old and New Testaments???

In my humble opinion the King James Version is the best for a well rounded spiritual life. I believe this because in my search for the truth over the years I've read many different versions of the Bible as well as other holy books and found the KJV to have a more positive spiritual influence on my being.

Cathy as far as women rights, the Bible has a lot to say about that and you will find it very much in agreement with you feelings. It puts women & men in their places especially defining their places in the big picture with God.

Please don't confuse spirituality with religion it is like comparing an apple to a zucchini.

Audio obsession, audio obsession . . . not politics not politics get out before it's too late. . . audio obsession audio obesesssssssss. . . . . . .Ahhhh

audiobliss

hearingimpared wrote:

I am a Christian. Not a Catholic, Protestant, Baptist, Jehovahs Witness etc, etc etc ad nauseum.

Amen!

shack

unc2701 wrote:

but it isn't right that the same skills are rewarded less.

Pay should be based on performance and productivity...not skills.

hearingimpared

shack wrote:

Pay should be based on performance and productivity...not skills.

You got that right . . .that is why I always stayed away from unions.

Airplay355

My boss's are all women, always have been. They all make more then me and have much more control of the company then alot of the men there. The CFO is a woman, VP of sales = woman...alot of important women out there making more then men.

I'm just getting at that sexism hasn't been apparent in my job. I've been for 5 years and plenty of women have had kids...there used to be a joke about how the water there would get you pregnant.

Anyway, while there may be sexism in the business world, I've never been exposed to it, and it's never been very apparent to me. Even at other jobs I looked at, the boss was a woman.

As far as what pay is based on. It seems starting pay is based on qualifications, like what your resume says and what degrees you have. However, if you've been at a company for a long time, performance and poductivity will get you more money in most cases.

schwarcw

cfrizz wrote:

My point is, until laws were enacted to protect women, men would constantly discriminate against women simply because they were women & not hire them at all. Or hire them, then fire them when they became pregnant.

Today they hire them but will still pay them less money (on average .74 to your 1.00)

If I am qualified to do a job then I should be hired to do the job. Regardless of the fact that I am in my childbearing years & might have a child.

Amen! I might be in a minority her, but what you're saying is right on. Women should earn equal pay for equal work. Glass ceilings should be shattered. I've worked for several women. Well educated, very capable and I found to be much more approachable than most men. They were much more understanding when I had family trouble and needed some time off, were generally concerned about me and my family and were sincere about wanting to help anyway they could. I wouldn't hesitate to work for another.

tonyb

Woooo......I'm scared............

tonyb

Don't you youngsters know by now ...never argue with a woman?

cfrizz

Well this whole statement says it all.

The MEN who wrote the bible all subscribed to women being squarely behind & subservient to men!

I'M NOT INTERESTED IN DOING SO! My place is right beside men doing my own thing as they do theirs!

hearingimpared wrote:

Cathy as far as women rights, the Bible has a lot to say about that and you will find it very much in agreement with you feelings. It puts women & men in their places especially defining their places in the big picture with God.

cfrizz

Airplay, women have made tremendous strides since laws were enacted that allowed us to show everyone what we are capable of! We always knew that we could!

We simply needed the chance to do so.

hearingimpared

cfrizz wrote:

Well this whole statement says it all.

The MEN who wrote the bible all subscribed to women being squarely behind & subservient to men!

I don't think you have read the Bible Old & New Testaments because it says the opposite of what you wrote here.

"Remember Who You Really Are
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness, that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, and fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? You are a child of God."

PolkThug

hearingimpared wrote:

I don't think you have read the Bible Old & New Testaments because it says the opposite of what you wrote here.

I seem to remember it more like Cathy does. I remember thinking, that women weren't treated very well in the Bible and that probably most women who claim to be Christians have never actually read the Bible.

hearingimpared

PolkThug wrote:

I seem to remember it more like Cathy does. I remember thinking, that women weren't treated very well in the Bible and that probably most women who claim to be Christians have never actually read the Bible.

Well my next question is, is this what you were taught or did you actually read it and remember that way. I read it daily and have read a great deal more than several times and the Bible has men and women as equals but far from equal to God.

audiobliss

Wow. I just realized something. Why are we all trying to reason with and placate an emotional woman who has flown off the handle about this?

We're all doomed.

audiobliss

It is extremely ignorant to say that the Bible doesn't treat women fairly, especially in the NT. Sure, they're not allowed to play an active role in the public worship service, but the 'inequalities' stop there.

hearingimpared

audiobliss wrote:

Wow. I just realized something. Why are we all trying to reason with and placate an emotional woman who has flown off the handle about this?

We're all doomed.

Oh BOY YOU BETTER START DUCKING!!!