The point of diminishing returns...

Joey_V

unc2701 wrote:

So you're saying that if you, personally, ever buy a pair of speakers costing more than the Buggtussels, you'll be wasting money?

I mean, yeah, there are plenty of giant killers out there, but there's a limit to what you can do for under $1000. Take the krell LAT-2's. $10,000 MSRP, totally over priced. The've got $500 worth of drivers, and about $500 worth of aluminum, machining and crossover. You just can't create something like that for under $1000... but let's say you magic one up for $1000. Does this mean that you wouldn't buy it?

I agree that money & audio is weird, but I still think you're going way too low.

UNC makes sense... price can always buy you better parts, as long as the manufacturer wasnt trying to gyp you in the first place. How that sounds depends on the design and the outlook of the manufacturer... how you'll like it depends on your taste and ears.

Ruin

IMO the Point of Dimishing Returns is when you spend 10 times the money to get 10% more performance.

I think that starts happening when you get in the 5 to 10K range on most audio products othen than transports and cables.. You will get way more that 10% more performance out of a speaker costing 5k than one cost $500. You will probably not get much more than 10% more performance out of speaker costing 50K than you will out of one costing 5K. Same thing with poweramps, and preamps. Once you hit the high end, and you are droping 5k on a piece, you are going to be trying to squeeze out tiny increments of performace for anything cosing more than that. I mean, sure you can buy a $25K amp, but does it give 5x the performance of a 5K amp? not in my book. It is more like 2-5%.
BTW, by performance I mean a change in the sound in a direction that enhances the listening experience.

I happen to have a Tenant in one of the buildings I manage that sells high end audio. You can buy a $140,000 pair of speakers from him if you would like. But they do not really sound any better than a $7500 pair he will also gladly sell you. What you do get is a slightly DIFFERENT sound. Do you like it better? Maybe, maybe not. But if you spend 140K for bragging rights, you better be TELLING yourself that is sounds better.

I think the break point on CD/DVD players is around 1K or so in my book.

I know that I could get a system that sounds better than mine, by a fair margin, if I doubled the cost of it. So I am not at the point of diminishing returns yet, just as the point of diminishing ability to pay for it. My LSi speakers are very very nice for the money, but If I was willing/able to triple or quadruple the cost I would be able to have one hell of a soundstage with the proper pre and amp. After that, I think I would be at the point of diminishing returns. I think that in a 5.1 setup I would consider a total system worth of $25,000 to $30,000 or so to be the point of diminishing returns.

Just one mans opinion who is spending more like 10K rather than 25 to 30K but who beleives that 30K would be his P.O.D.R.

Cheers

Ruin

Denon AVR4806CI
Denon DVD3910
Polk LSi25 mains
Polk LSiC center
Polk LSi9 Surrounds
Audio Art IC-1
Audio Arts SC-5

Ricardo

Early B. wrote:

"Based on your budget, how much are you willing to spend to the point where you are satisfied with what you have?"

All the ones that are satisfied with what you have, please raise your hand....

Ok; that's what I thought

Joey_V

HTrookie wrote:

All the ones that are satisfied with what you have, please raise your hand....

Ok; that's what I thought

I raise my hand...

Though satisfaction doesnt necessarily mean the end for me... there's always better and room for improvement. I hadnt been satisfied completely until I moved to my new place, rigged up the Summits in the open living room, hooked up the Rotel 1090 and let it blast. There was always something off about the focus for me.... but it was the amp's fault from the start, and the bedroom didnt exactly help.

Back to your diminishing returns thread....

unc2701

Early B. wrote:

Obviously I'm not implying that. However, I think we can both agree that there are plenty of giant killers out there. Part of the fun, for me, is to seek them out. Besides, I don't have deep pockets (if I did, I'd keep my hands in them more often:p ).

There are so many choices and preferences in audio and so many price points that it's tough to talk about a relationship between price and sound quality. If a direct correlation between price and quality existed in audio, then we can discuss diminishing returns. Otherwise, we'll keep going in circles.

Fair 'nough. I personally think I'm going DIY on the speakers for here on out. I'm getting better at the woodworking so mainly I need to be able to build a decent crossover

Early B.

unc2701 wrote:

I personally think I'm going DIY on the speakers for here on out. I'm getting better at the woodworking so mainly I need to be able to build a decent crossover

Check out Madisound for the crossovers. They'll spec and build them for you.

VR3

steveinaz wrote:

What dollar amount do you feel maximizes peformance at a point of diminishing returns? List for: (use globally accepted street prices, new equipment only for a good baseline):

1. Power amplifier
2. Preamplifier
3. Speakers
4. IC cables
5. Speaker cables
6. CD/SACD Player/transport
7. External DAC
8. Turntable/cartridge combo

1) 1000
2) 1-1,500
3) 2,500
4) 50
5) 150
6) 500
7) 0
8) o

steveinaz

I have to admit that I will get into the 2 to 5 grand speaker bracket before I'm done. I'm completely satisfied with everything else I have.

VR3

Stevemaster...

Whats your favorite speaker (tower, a big tower) in the 2,500 range?

Joey_V

When I'm truly at that next level.. I seriously see myself in the $20-30K range. I never thought that this was possible, but once you're hooked... you're REALLY REALLY hooked.

Gosh... I really wonder what my system will look like in 10 years... it's going to be nuts for sure. Cant wait 'till I'm 34.

madmax

My system has stayed at about the same price for the past several years, I just have a lot less components now.
madmax

steveinaz

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote:

Stevemaster...

Whats your favorite speaker (tower, a big tower) in the 2,500 range?

I'm looking real hard at the Von Schweikert VR4jr, but there are others also. On the upper-end of my money limit scale, I'm looking at the Sonus Faber Cremona ($8995). This is years away though...

Joey_V

steveinaz wrote:

I'm looking real hard at the Von Schweikert VR4jr, but there are others also. On the upper-end of my money limit scale, I'm looking at the Sonus Faber Cremona ($8995). This is years away though...

Still dont like the VR4jr.....

But, as of today 1 hour ago, I have heard.. I mean... experienced the Cremona.

I'll leave this as my thoughts of the Cremona:

I-SIG

I guess I'll finally chime in here.

After a month or more with the Rotel and Bel Canto, I think I can actually speak with some insight on this subject, however slight or subjective it may be.

Anyway, with these two components it sure seems that doubling the retail price didn't even come close to doubling the satisfaction and both of these components aren't exactly bank-breakers by any stretch. I think the MSRP on the Rotel is like $600-700 and the Bel Canto is like $1200, give or take. If I hadn't already invested the funds in the DAC, I don't know if I would at this point. Granted I didn't pay retail for either item, but...

...I think the investment might pay off more once I upgrade tweeters and crossovers on the big boy SRS's. Everyone around here seems to think that is the ticket.

Now with amps, I think there is a lot more room to play with things. When I went from Carver to Parasound I would say the difference was easily noticeable, so yeah, it proabably doubled as the price I paid used was also almost double. Unfortunately, as has been noted, we're looking at a logarithmic curve here. I'm rather chicken that I'll have t spend $2k++ used to have any hope of coming close to doubling the $700 I spent on this rather beastly Parasound.

Anyway, I'm glad at this point that I have a digital source and speakers that can keep up with just about everything I would/could realistically consider short of hitting the lottery.

Now about those tweeters, crossovers, and amps...

Wes

madmax

I-SIG wrote:

I guess I'll finally chime in here.

...once I upgrade tweeters and crossovers on the big boy SRS's. Everyone around here seems to think that is the ticket. Wes

You haven't done that yet? Yes, that is the TICKET and will make a big difference in how everything sounds. When I first heard the replacements in another fellows system I was so excited about it I ordered 40 new tweets the next morning to upgrade all my SDA models. In my best Starsky and Hutch voice... Do it! Do it!
madmax

dragon1952

1. 1500
2. 1500
3. 3000
4. 200
5. 200
6. 800
7. 900
8. n/a

I-SIG

madmax wrote:

You haven't done that yet? Yes, that is the TICKET and will make a big difference in how everything sounds. When I first heard the replacements in another fellows system I was so excited about it I ordered 40 new tweets the next morning to upgrade all my SDA models. In my best Starsky and Hutch voice... Do it! Do it!
madmax

No I haven't done the tweeters yet. They are certainly next on the audio list. Right now it's time for a new gat. If I can't find the silencer I want, then I'll go ahead and get the tweets with that moola.

I think I'm convinced now for sure. I almost got the tweeters instead of the Rotel, but decided the proper source would round things out, overall, to actaully having a low-end, hi-fi system.

Wes

madmax

Lets see, a new silencer -or- new tweets. Certainly an unusual decision to make.

Both should quiet down the harshness...

audiobliss

unc2701 wrote:

in that no objective listener can really say one is better, just different.

Whao, did someone just referrence the 'objective listener?' I bet you're talking about the same one I've heard of before, 'cause I know there can't be more than one objective listener.

BlueMDPicker

Here's my 2,900,000 cents worth:

1. Power amplifier - $5000
2. Preamplifier - $3000
3. Speakers - $10000
4. IC cables - $1000
5. Speaker cables - $1000
6. CD Player/transport - $3000
7. External DAC - $1000
8. Turntable/cartridge combo - $4000

DarqueKnight

Those figures seem reasonable. I might tweak the speakers down a couple grand.

BlueMDPicker

DarqueKnight wrote:

Those figures seem reasonable. I might tweak the speakers down a couple grand.

I just did today, as a matter of fact.

wingnut4772

I can say that a $6700 pre beats a $1500 pre by a mile. I can't imagine it getting any better but that's what I said about my $1500 pre.

madmax

A $7K phono preamp beats the $1500 one I used to have. Before that I had a $600 one. Each was a step up (only one step) and each had its own characteristics. It's my understanding that if I wanted to take another step I'd be in the $28K range. That is not a range I ever plan to be in.
madmax

Joey_V

7K for a preamp? Too rich for my blood.

McLoki

Diminishing returns all comes down to system synergy. If you have a system you have spent $5,000 on, adding another $5,000 to just one component would be a waste. You just wouldn't hear the improvement that you paid for.

Unfortunately, the only time most people buy an entire system (and have the best chance of getting the synergy correct) is the first system they buy when they have the least amount of knowledge of audio.

for me, I would say the diminishing returns are in the $7,000 - $10,000 system cost range. Start stepping much above that you are in the high-buck minimal increase for maximum dollar range.

Michael

madmax

Joey_V wrote:

7K for a preamp? Too rich for my blood.

Yea, mine too but it was just too cool to pass up. The bad thing is it is only a phono pre, no inputs for anything else. Sometimes you have to treat yourself to a little fluff, everyone should.
madmax