The point of diminishing returns...

steveinaz

What dollar amount do you feel maximizes peformance at a point of diminishing returns? List for: (use globally accepted street prices, new equipment only for a good baseline):

1. Power amplifier
2. Preamplifier
3. Speakers
4. IC cables
5. Speaker cables
6. CD/SACD Player/transport
7. External DAC
8. Turntable/cartridge combo

Early B.

Based on used prices:

1. $500
2. $400
3. hard to say; if you know what you're buying, it can be done with $300; if not, it'll take at least $750 for floorstanders
4. $100
5. $125
6. $500 - $600
7. I dunno
8. I dunno

RuSsMaN

You can't put a $ amount on it really. It's when you hit 98%, maybe even 99% of what sound you like. It's that last 1-2% of improvement that cost an astronominal amount.

Cheers,
Russ

polkatese

How about obsessiveness with a specific brand? For me, regardless of improvement level or price factor (obviously the cheaper the better, and primarily based on one's budget), I always longing to own a Levinson. Yes, I love the sound, and no, I haven't got to the point of willing and able to justify its cost (new, used, or otherwise). So, it feels like a double whammy for me. dunno.

Gaara

1. $800
2. $1000
3. $3000
4. $50/1 meter pair
5. $40/8ft pair
6. $500
7. N/A
8. N/A

Jared

steveinaz

polkatese wrote:

How about obsessiveness with a specific brand? For me, regardless of improvement level or price factor (obviously the cheaper the better, and primarily based on one's budget), I always longing to own a Levinson. Yes, I love the sound, and no, I haven't got to the point of willing and able to justify its cost (new, used, or otherwise). So, it feels like a double whammy for me. dunno.

True, I'd like to own a pair of $46,000 Wilson speakers, but I bet I could find a pair at $7,500 that would perform as well, or would be so close, that the extra cost would not be justifiable---

Early B.

RuSsMaN wrote:

You can't put a $ amount on it really. It's when you hit 98%, maybe even 99% of what sound you like. It's that last 1-2% of improvement that cost an astronominal amount.

Yeah, that sums it up. And virtually every speaker or other component you buy won't provide you with 100% of the sound you're looking for, no matter how much you pay for them.

Obviously, if I had more money, my point of diminishing returns would be a lot higher. So I suppose the question you're really asking in this thread is: "Based on your budget, how much are you willing to spend to the point where you are satisfied with what you have?"

joeparaski

I can't even be sure of the "sound" I'm looking for. It just seems to be improving with various changes or components. I would need to hear other systems for comparison but I have no friends who are into this. That leaves listening in audio stores, which I haven't really done yet.

Joey_V

Good thread Steve! Ok.. so NEW only... point of dimishing returns...

Ok....

1. Power amplifier - $10,000
2. Preamplifier - $5,000
3. Speakers - $10,000
4. IC cables - No experience
5. Speaker cables - No experience
6. CD/SACD Player/transport - $3000
7. External DAC - $1000
8. Turntable/cartridge combo - No experience

steveinaz

Early B. wrote:

So I suppose the question you're really asking in this thread is: "Based on your budget, how much are you willing to spend to the point where you are satisfied with what you have?"

No, not based on your budget, but what you feel is the dollar point where your bang-for-the-buck ratio is seriously diminishing...

steveinaz

This is a subjective question by nature, no laws, no rules. Like asking what does a $685 interconnect do, that a $200 one doesn't do---that type of premise...where do you feel performance has peaked, and hype or rediculously expensive materials (that really don't contribute to the sound) begins?

madmax

To me the point of diminishing returns starts once you get a reasonable output which you can enjoy listening to. In one of your other threads Oshkigod and I mention a 3960 DVD, SI amp and home brew speakers which could yield a decent sound for somewhere between $175 and $350.

So, I propose anything over this range is a step up on the curve, which means diminishing returns has already started. Lets face it, upgrading your amps from $100 to $1000 is no more breathtaking than upgrading your $1000 amps to $10000 ones and so on.
madmax

Joey_V

For my price points... I'm looking at the point where a speaker/gear at that pricepoint is already soo good, that any more would be more than enough to satisfy my tastes.

To me, that's the point of dimishing returns.

Early B.

Diminishing returns is based almost exclusively on your budget, not your ear.

With more money, other considerations besides sound come into play such as aesthetics, brand name, power, investment value, build quality, etc. For instance, if I had more money, I'd buy much more expensive speakers, not necessarily because they sound better than what I already have, but because I can. Period.

I'll say it again for the 23rd time -- price don't mean **** when it comes to audio.

steveinaz

Sean--

Lemme repeat again...."where do you feel performance has peaked, and hype or rediculously expensive materials (that really don't contribute to the sound) begins?"

I ask you what time it is, and you're telling me how to build a watch...LOL

Shizelbs

RuSsMaN wrote:

It's that last 1-2% of improvement that cost an astronominal amount.

Astronominal. Thats officially my new favorite word. It has permanently occupied space in my own personal lexicon. And the thing is, its oddly appropriate here.

I agree though, it all depends. The specific point of diminshing returns really relates to the synergy and capabilities of the other gear in the rig. Its not like you can really affix one set limit to a specific piece of gear.

steveinaz

Zero wrote:

Dammit Geezer, I answered it and then some! Go shoot off your guns or something!

Geezer!..LOL, sheesh I'm 44, not a 144.

zombie boy 2000

+1 for astronominal

I've already used it twice:D

jdhdiggs

Hmm, how much does a crappy boombox cost from walmart? That's my answer. Before that, no sound, after-some. Biggest difference you could possibly make is gainesd for the least amount of $. I'll go with the $5 clock radio for all answers.

unc2701

I'm with madmax- I think the scale is loglinear. You've gotta multiply price to get an additive improvement. It's also somewhat circular/ iterative. Does a $2000 amp sound better than a $1000 amp on a $400 pair of speakers? or are we assuming that you had a set of basically perfect gear otherwise, where is the point for this individual piece.

Anyhow, give all that, I'd call it the point where the gear starts coming down to personal preference... in that no objective listener can really say one is better, just different.

1-Power amp $4000
2-pre amp $2000
3-Speakers $7000
4-IC's $200/pair
5-Sp cables $200/pair
6-CD player I dunno... I'm starting to be convinced it's all in the DAC
7-DAC $1000
8-TT- $1200

About half those prices that is where I feel comfortable that I'm not over spending... for my ears and salary 'cept maybe the DAC & TT- those I could probably spend to the full point.

One thing I gotta take issue with- Early, $750 is the point for speakers??? I can understand going low anyplace else, but you've gotta go higher on speakers. In fact, up to about twice that, you almost always get twice the speaker for twice the cash.

steveinaz

Early said "at least $750."

unc2701

steveinaz wrote:

Early said "at least $750."

Good point. I just saw that and choked.

Early B.

unc2701 wrote:

One thing I gotta take issue with- Early, $750 is the point for speakers??? I can understand going low anyplace else, but you've gotta go higher on speakers. In fact, up to about twice that, you almost always get twice the speaker for twice the cash.

What does, "twice the speaker" mean?

I'll say it again for the 24th time...price don't mean a damn thing in audio.

unc2701

Early B. wrote:

What does, "twice the speaker" mean?

I'll say it again for the 24th time...price don't mean a damn thing in audio.

I mean that you could take the best $750 speakers you could find, then you go get the best $1500 pair, take 30 people (with good ears), have them listen to them both, and about 27 would say, "Damn- that IS a lot better". $1500 vs $3000, it'll drop. $3000 vs $6000 and you'll get even fewer. Much beyond that, it's just personal preference.

I remember my first go round listening to polks- I think it was $800 rt800i's, $1000 Rt1000i's and $2000 Rt2000i's. The 2000's were waaaaaay better than the 1000's. So much better that I was truly surprised, but I ended up with 1000's 'cause i couldn't afford the 2000's at the time.

Joey_V

Early B. wrote:

What does, "twice the speaker" mean?

I'll say it again for the 24th time...price don't mean a damn thing in audio.

But it sure as heck would mean that a speaker by the SAME company at double the price would more than likely have a better group of parts used than the lesser model and if you believe in that company, the more expensive model would better fit the company's embodiement of sound reproduction.

You can say price dont mean a damn thing, but in this world where price dictates the parts used, price sure as hell means something to my ears.

I guess... what I'm trying to say is that:
Price doesnt necessarily equate to a better product, but it sure as hell is likely.

steveinaz

Early B. wrote:

I'll say it again for the 24th time...price don't mean a damn thing in audio.

...and that is called an "opinion." Does every thread on this forum lately have to be a battle? It's a subjective observation...in other words, there are no wrong answers. Christ, some of you need to get laid.

Joey_V

I agree.. it's an opinion... so is mine.

I'm not saying he's wrong, Steve. I'm just saying that from my perspective, this is what I believe.

That's all... no battles or anything.

unc2701

Early is right that there are some huge deals to be had in audio, and you can put together a pretty damn good system on the cheap (see the $1500 thread, also by steve), but i think the diminishing returns on speakers is a lot higher than most other gear and way more than $300 even if you do know what you're doing.

Early B.

unc2701 wrote:

I mean that you could take the best $750 speakers you could find, then you go get the best $1500 pair, take 30 people (with good ears), have them listen to them both, and about 27 would say, "Damn- that IS a lot better". $1500 vs $3000, it'll drop. $3000 vs $6000 and you'll get even fewer. Much beyond that, it's just personal preference.

Not true. You'll quickly get hung up on with trying to identify the "best $750 speakers you can find."

Price doesn't always dictate build quality or sound quality. Some speakers costing thousands of dollars have cheap crossover components and use inexpensive drivers. Sometimes it ain't about SQ, it's about marketing, folks. Too often we get hung up on price and believe that a relatively higher priced component is going to sound "better." BOSE is a great example of a company that exploits this false belief.

How many times have you bought more expensive interconnects or speaker cables only to find that the less expensive ones you had sounded "better" on your system?

I've personally had three pair of speakers that cost 2-3x times what I paid for my current speakers, and in my opinion, the Buggs will easily blow all of them away. I've had the same experience with certain amps, speaker cables, and interconnects. We even have a term for this stuff -- "giant killers."

unc2701

So you're saying that if you, personally, ever buy a pair of speakers costing more than the Buggtussels, you'll be wasting money?

I mean, yeah, there are plenty of giant killers out there, but there's a limit to what you can do for under $1000. Take the krell LAT-2's. $10,000 MSRP, totally over priced. The've got $500 worth of drivers, and about $500 worth of aluminum, machining and crossover. You just can't create something like that for under $1000... but let's say you magic one up for $1000. Does this mean that you wouldn't buy it?

I agree that money & audio is weird, but I still think you're going way too low.

Early B.

unc2701 wrote:

So you're saying that if you, personally, ever buy a pair of speakers costing more than the Buggtussels, you'll be wasting money?

Obviously I'm not implying that. However, I think we can both agree that there are plenty of giant killers out there. Part of the fun, for me, is to seek them out. Besides, I don't have deep pockets (if I did, I'd keep my hands in them more often:p ).

There are so many choices and preferences in audio and so many price points that it's tough to talk about a relationship between price and sound quality. If a direct correlation between price and quality existed in audio, then we can discuss diminishing returns. Otherwise, we'll keep going in circles.