The "Golden Age" of USA

PhantomOG

Accept certain inalienable truths: Prices will rise. Politicians will philander. You, too, will get old. And when you do, you’ll fantasize that when you were young, prices were reasonable, politicians were noble and children respected their elders.

it was always better back in the good old days...

ND13

Ummmmm....who's going to try and collect, huh?

What if we went out and tried to collect from all the nations that owe us money. This isn't the same as one of us owing Sears or Visa.

bobman1235

Not to shake things up too much, but

MacLeod wrote:

First off, our debt is insignifigant when compared to our GNP. Think of it like this, if you made $20,000 a year then $10,000 of debt would be a big deal. Now if you made $200,000 a year it wouldnt.

GNP of USA - $ 11,750,000,000,000
National Debt - $ 8,388,569,674,247

I'd say it's significant.

ND13 wrote:

Ummmmm....who's going to try and collect, huh?

China has a VERY large portion of our national debt. If they decided to "collect", they could essentially crumble our economy. THe problem is, their economy is almost entirely based on ours, so if ours crumbled, so woudl theirs. But don't keep thinking we're invincible. It's a scary situation that we're in, and it's not getting any better. The value of our money is based solely on its value against other world economies. It could plummet pretty easily.

Skynut

bobman1235 wrote:

Not to shake things up too much, but



GNP of USA - $ 11,750,000,000,000
National Debt - $ 8,388,569,674,247

I'd say it's significant.



China has a VERY large portion of our national debt. If they decided to "collect", they could essentially crumble our economy. THe problem is, their economy is almost entirely based on ours, so if ours crumbled, so woudl theirs. But don't keep thinking we're invincible. It's a scary situation that we're in, and it's not getting any better. The value of our money is based solely on its value against other world economies. It could plummet pretty easily.

If China just cashed in our bonds they hold, we would falter, if we falter so do alot of other places.

Think of the worlds economy like dominoes, when the right one falls so go the rest.

ND13

The only way to collect from us is to declare war and try to invade us. That's an extremely tough task, even for 5-6 billion Chinamen.

It's not in the best interest of ANY NATION to try to topple us, though I can think of a few middle-eastern nations that would disagree.

One other thing......are we the only nation that after we defeat a country in war stays and rebuilds said nation's infrastructure?

bobman1235

ND13 wrote:

The only way to collect from us is to declare war and try to invade us. That's an extremely tough task, even for 5-6 billion Chinamen.

It's not in the best interest of ANY NATION to try to topple us, though I can think of a few middle-eastern nations that would disagree.

I don't know enough about world economics to refute this intelligently, but I'm sure there are many ways this could happen without any kind of military intervention. The problem is, like I said, it's not in THIER best interest, because all economies are dependent on each other.

I can certainly agree with your last statement, though, but the same could be said for any other econimic power. Believe me, I love this country more than anything, and I'd love to think we're invincible, but just saying it doesn't make it so.

ND13

I should have said, involuntarily. If we don't want to pay, we won't.

It's really a moot point. I'd think that every nation of power has serious debt issues and it's all a juggling act.

bobman1235

You're absoulutely correct, but just the fact htat they wanted us to "pay" and we didn't could cause FAITH in our dollar to plummet on the world market, and therefore cause a severe decrease in the value of our money. Money isn't backed by gold anymore, it's based solely on faith and value against the world's economies and markets.

As you said before, this isn't like owing money on your Sears card. They're not just going to send us a bill. But owing money to another nation makes your economy much more dependent on THEIR economy, and can cause serious problems. Just ignoring something as extremely important as the national debt is dangerous, and irresponsible.

Skynut

ND13 wrote:

I'd think that every nation of power has serious debt issues and it's all a juggling act.

Enron had a juggling act going also and no one knew.

ND13

In reality, we never ask for repayment and neither do "they". It's all used as political leverage.

ND13

Skynut wrote:

Enron had a juggling act going also and no one knew.

But we're talking about nations not corporations.

unc2701

Yeah, they won't ever ask for repayment. They'll just sell our debt at 80 cents on the dollar and watch our economy crash and burn.

We're a credit card country and at some point there's gotta be a correction.

Skynut

ND13 wrote:

But we're talking about nations not corporations.

I am afraid they are running our nation like a corporation.

unc2701

as for the original topic, I'd put our golden age starting with WWII through the 60's. It's hard to know when to cut that off since you've got the civil rights movement on the one hand, but increasing involvement in Vietnam on the other.

The 90's weren't too bad either... tech boom, balanced budget, low crime, etc. have to think this one through some more.

Skynut

I think the birth of the internet is going to be the turning point to society.
Eventually when the new history books are out, kids in the 22nd century will learn that the internet was the best tool ever invented to get information to anyone who can find it.
This will lead to growth in many places not yet realized.
Information and commerce are global now and the internet is still an infant at this point.

unc2701

Ever read Snow Crash by Neil Stephenson?

reeltrouble1

Eh.........well, you know its really about the rock, I mean, yea, you have the paper to cover the rock, but the paper gets wiped easily by the scissors which renders it pretty much useless forever, when times get tough everyone knows that the rocks just smash the heck out of the scissors, it was all good for us, until the rock's got too spread around, heck, we made so many rocks we cant keep track of the stuff rocks get made from anymore. Now it seems everyone has a rock or is getting a rock. Yea, I know some folks are working hard here to cover those other rocks with the paper thing but hell, everyone, has scissors, so in the end the paper is not worth squat. Never really has been if you think about it.

So I am thinking things will change, dont know when, just that they will. Of course nothing really changes in the end, well in the real end things do, but man thats a very long way off.

RT1

McLoki

reeltrouble1 wrote:

Eh.........well, you know its really about the rock, I mean, yea, you have the paper to cover the rock, but the paper gets wiped easily by the scissors which renders it pretty much useless forever, when times get tough everyone knows that the rocks just smash the heck out of the scissors, it was all good for us, until the rock's got too spread around, heck, we made so many rocks we cant keep track of the stuff rocks get made from anymore. Now it seems everyone has a rock or is getting a rock. Yea, I know some folks are working hard here to cover those other rocks with the paper thing but hell, everyone, has scissors, so in the end the paper is not worth squat. Never really has been if you think about it.

So I am thinking things will change, dont know when, just that they will. Of course nothing really changes in the end, well in the real end things do, but man thats a very long way off.

RT1

It is a scary thought that I consider this one of the more lucid thoughts posted so far on this topic.....

Well done,

Michael

POLKOHOLIC

MacLeod wrote:

First off, our debt is insignifigant when compared to our GNP. Think of it like this, if you made $20,000 a year then $10,000 of debt would be a big deal. Now if you made $200,000 a year it wouldnt.

And there is absolutely no comparison between us and the USSR. They were communists. They had no freedom or free enterprise. Its suprising they lasted as long as they did.

1.As noted, you are very wrong.

2.China - communist and the economy is growing at the rate of 9%/annum. Will be a leading superpower in the next 50 years.

I dont think you realize this macleod, but every nation has a downfall. History tells us this. No matter how wealthy/prosperous a nation becomes, it will fall....just a matter of time. example: every nation from the beginning of recorded history.

ND13 wrote:

One other thing......are we the only nation that after we defeat a country in war stays and rebuilds said nation's infrastructure?

The only way to collect from us is to declare war and try to invade us. That's an extremely tough task, even for 5-6 billion Chinamen.

It's not in the best interest of ANY NATION to try to topple us, though I can think of a few middle-eastern nations that would disagree.

I'd think that every nation of power has serious debt issues and it's all a juggling act.

1.We do this because it will be better for us in the long run. We do not want to deal with the same mess all over again and therefore we rebuild countries that we go to war with. Leaving Afghanistan or Iraq in ruins would only make people angry with the US and the ousted party will return to power.

2. or they can stop trading with us. this can happen, just not now.

3. Agreed

4. China has a trade SURPLUS of ~$90bn.

Lastly, the point of this thread wasn't to trash this amazing country. The point was to gather comments on what one thinks history books will write about the golden age of the United States after its downfall - assuming there is a downfall which history tells us there will be.

-polkoholic

Demiurge

2.China - communist and the economy is growing at the rate of 9%/annum. Will be a leading superpower in the next 50 years.

China also can't contain it's population which is becoming more and more Westernized -- AKA -- Desiring of freedom. If war doesn't break out with them, this will happen. Mark my words.

I can't belive we have people at CP that want to postulate over the demise of America. We're the first true nation to have embraced freedom -- so your document of history is a flawed flaming bag of ****. The only thing that will put this country at risk of failure are the socialist policies so many Americans buy hook line and sinker because it comes wrapped up with shiny paper and a pretty bow.

I can assure you I'll go down swinging.

reeltrouble1

I am reminded of a professor who I once thought was as batty as a fruit fly. He told me my conclusion's or sides in a matter were not nearly as important as the fact that I spent some time thinking about it. WTF!!!!!!!!!

He was right.

RT1

ND13

You can have a TRADE surplus and still be in debt.

amulford

Drumingman wrote:

Hey, it's a commie. :eek:

Hey... BLOW ME!!!

Not to put the country's history down, just stating a simple fact. IMHO, the 40's & the 60's were THE Golden Years.

In the 40's we basically saved the f#cking world. If not for the USA, her military and production capabilities, we would be speaking German on the east coast and Japanese on the west. The Russkies would have been the opposite. The true might of AMERICA was gloriously proven during that period.

During the 60's, well let's look. Civil rights. Huge technological advancement (we put a man on the friggin moon, for cryin out loud). Honest, if yet embarrassing, demonstration of our right of Freedom of Speech. And let us not forget the sexual revolution. Oh no...;)

So, you see, I'm not embarrassed. F#ck it. It's best to learn from our mistakes. And we have. Soil conservation, enviromental oversight and laws, labor laws. ****, we still making them, learning from them, and improving because of it. That's what makes this country so friggin great.

So if you think I'm mad because you called me a commie, I'm really not. But I do have the balls to call it like I see it...

jdhdiggs

I'd add 80's and touch into the 90's to include GF1 with the 40's and 60's as pretty damn good. Recovering from a horrible war and terrible inflation back-to-back then we brought out the longest REAL sustained economy and buried the Soviet Union, brought down the wall, and saved some countries in the middle east from being annexed. Not too bad.

MacLeod

bobman1235 wrote:

GNP of USA - $ 11,750,000,000,000
National Debt - $ 8,388,569,674,247

I'd say it's significant.

A little off there Bob. Debt is right but the GDP is a little higher at 13.2 something if I remember right. The debt is high but our GDP is outpacing the debt and the debt is smaller than the GDP by a good margin. Id be willing to bet most people on here have debt higher than their yearly income.

POLKOHOLIC wrote:

1.As noted, you are very wrong.

Nope.

2.China - communist and the economy is growing at the rate of 9%/annum. Will be a leading superpower in the next 50 years.

But they wont maintain that growth rate. Theyre just getting their economy started so its taking off right now. It will eventually slow down. I dont disagree they may be a super power some day but we'll still be a bigger super power.

I dont think you realize this macleod, but every nation has a downfall. History tells us this. No matter how wealthy/prosperous a nation becomes, it will fall....just a matter of time. example: every nation from the beginning of recorded history.

Wrong. Every nation has some setbacks but not a downfall. Yeah, Rome colapsed, the USSR collapsed as did Greece but England is still on top, so is France (thanks to us). Japan got flattened in WWII but is back on top as well.

The reason is that we're not an empire or a dictatorship. We have a capitalistic system that makes life better for all as opposed to Rome and Greece which had a lush upper class and then slaves! Even our poorest live much better than those in REAL poverty. Dont think so? Most people in the projects have color TV's, a car, microwaves, air conditioning. Yeah theyre not living in a penthouse but its a far cry better than somebody in Africa living in a mud hut having to chase down his food every night!

I dont doubt we could encounter some hard times in the future but I believe 100% that this country was created by the smartes men to ever live and it will continue to rise for as long as those principles are adhered to. Now you get a bunch of socialists in power or big government people and you could be right.

jdhdiggs

China has a lot of growing up to do. Right now they can get away with a lot because they aren't the sophisticated yet, but with their blatent theft of IP and protectionism, they will get isolated unless they change. Pressure is increasing as US companies are becoming hesitant to move to China as China tends to invite you in, train there people, then make it impossible for you to stay and the state takes over the plant. You know that new Chinese car? Made in old GM and Ford plants taken by China.

Pressure from the EU, US, India, and internally will force the change or collapse them. It would probably be 100 years before they can pass us and that is only if we don't fix our education system.

If they do change their ways, it will be a huge boost to the US consumer and US companies, but not to the blue coller worker/unions who would be essentially obliterated.

MacLeod

And dont forget, theyre still a communist dictatorship so theyre not going to go that far!

Skynut

The US of A will not go away.
If the gov. is mishandeling our country and we do falter, we still will not go away.
We will not be taken over.
Life for us will just suck for awhile, but we will come back from it just like last time.
It will just suck for a while, thats all.

ND13

Recessions happen. It's just part of being a capitalistic nation.

cfrizz

And the best way to handle our Gov. mishandling is to vote the ones doing the mishandling out of office!

Sometimes it's our own fault, we elect a new president every 4-8 yrs but keep the same old mostly useless Senators & Reps in congress! If we want real change, we will have to get up the courage & vote them out & give some newbies a change!

I sometimes think that there should be a time limit on Congressional terms as well.

Having said all of that, we still live in the greatest nation in the world! If anyone else doesn't think so, you are free to move anywhere else that you think is better than us!

Skynut wrote:

The US of A will not go away.
If the gov. is mishandeling our country and we do falter, we still will not go away.
We will not be taken over.
Life for us will just suck for awhile, but we will come back from it just like last time.
It will just suck for a while, thats all.