Are we alone?

neomagus00

demiurge - true, intelligent life is very complex, but note we're not asking about the existence of intellegent life, just life in any form, which is vastly more possible... heck, we can create proto-cells in a laboratory already, i'm sure that some world other than ours has, in the past 6 billion years (a generously small number), formed at least a cell by random chance...

an interesting tidbit - this CNN article describes an Australian research project that estimated the number of stars in the visible universe as 7 x 10^22... that's a lotta planets...

and where did you get your 1 in 10^22000 figure?

skynut - i agree, we have no idea what our own concept of 'life' is, exactly, cause we keep finding crazy stuff that really shouldn't be alive, but is... like certain sulfur-based carbon lifeforms around vents in the deep ocean (as opposed to carbon-based, like us) (note this is hearsay, i'm searching for a reliable reference now)

a reference - NASA's Astrobiology Institute

Skynut

All of the science arguements regarding life are based on the thought that all material in the universe was originally sterile. The sterile material is not contaminated with any forms of biological life.
What if it wasnt' sterile?
If the "big bang" was actually the starting point of everything and whatever "blew up" was sterile then it could be argued that most of the cosmos are in fact sterile however, if the big "thing" that "blew up" was actually inhabited at one time then the remnants of that life were sent out in all directions.

Life has a way of surviving.

I also think it is arrogant to think that a being capable of creating everything in the heavens would create us in it's own image.
I feel this is our own explaination for life.

bobman1235

With our very limited technology, scientists have already found one or two planets which seem to be CAPABLE of sustaining life as we know it (a medium sized sun, atmosphere, and reasonable distance from said sun). And it's pretty hard for us to "find" planets in other solar systems to begin with. Being that we can see any leads most to believe there are in fact many planets CAPABLE of sustaining life. Since no one really knows how life BEGAN (yeah, single celled organism in a pool somewhere, I know, but no one really KNOWS) we also don't know how difficult it is for it to happen again. Intelligent life is more complex than any of us can really fathom, but it is in ABUNDANCE (although I use intelligent loosely ) on Earth, so I think it's reasonable to assume that of the most likely MILLIONS of inhabitable planets in the universe, ONE of them managed to eek out some sort of life.

Ricardo

I said yes...but I agree with those who say Who cares?? We probably won't know they are there, if they are there, and we have enough issues right here to spend our lives wondering what else could be out there.

Demiurge

neomagus00 wrote:

demiurge - true, intelligent life is very complex, but note we're not asking about the existence of intellegent life, just life in any form, which is vastly more possible... heck, we can create proto-cells in a laboratory already, i'm sure that some world other than ours has, in the past 6 billion years (a generously small number), formed at least a cell by random chance...

an interesting tidbit - this CNN article describes an Australian research project that estimated the number of stars in the visible universe as 7 x 10^22... that's a lotta planets...

and where did you get your 1 in 10^22000 figure?

Dr. Carl Sagan, from one of his two books on the subject, Cosmos. This is his purely scientific view on the matter, and he's hardly a friend of the bible, so I am not even using someone in line with ID to form my argument.

The number is astronomical (pun intended), and I see a lot of folks in this thread throwing out the complex components needed to create life, let alone sustain it.

Now, to get complex about life....

There are an estimated 100,000,000,000 stars in this galaxy. There are an estimated 100,000,000,000 galaxies. The sun is roughly 1,000,000 times the size of the earth. The mass of the earth is roughly 6x10^27g (I will round that up to 10^28 grams).

Tryptophan is one of the 20 amino acids making up the others that create the proteins in life (intelligent or otherwise). I am using tryptophan as my basis to my argument.

The mass of tryptophan is 204 grams/mole (Which I will round down to make the numbers better for unbelievers). Lets say just 100 grams per mole. Thus, if the universe were one great big soup stock of amino acids, there would be about:

10^28 * 10^11 * 10^11 *10^6 * 6.022 * 10^23/100 molecules of amino acids in the universe.


That is less than 10^479 molecules in the universe.

For argument's sake, lets say dark matter is 9 times the visible universe, or a total of 10^79 amino acid molecules in the universe! Given that a hemoglobin molecule of protein is roughly a specific 600 link chain, each link is possibly one of the 20 amino acids mentioned earlier. Lets do some stats for a simple 100 link chain protein molecule. To get a specific chain, we would have one chance in 20^100 or roughly (rounding down to help the unbelievers) 10^130 of get that specific chain. Now lets say this soup of amino acids is actually 100 link chans randomly breaking apart and coming back together at 100,000,000,000,000 times per second for the entire hstory of the universe. The age of the universe is roughly 18,000,000,000 years (rounded up to about 100,000,000,000,000,000 seconds).

So, 10^130 / 10^79 / 10^17 = 10^34. You have one chance in 10^34 of getting the specific chain you must have)for there to be life.

See, it's a gigantic mind f*ck, and really isn't worth it. Knowing all of that means nothing.

The point of putting all that on paper is to show you need to wish, hope, pray, or whatever the hell you want for there to be life out there. Then, in the obscure chance that there was -- tell yourself it even mattered. There's nothing in our reaches, either physically or mentally, so why even belauguer the point?

The people that claim to have seen UFOs are full of shite. I'm sure they saw something, but UFOs manned by aliens they were not.

Not to mention, if we're not talking about intelligent life, who cares? Might be nice to look up at the sky and ask ".....are we alone?" The answer is yes, because the truth wouldn't feel any different.

Didn't read past the sixth line, eh?

Ron-P

I need a beer.

Strong Bad

I heard Carl Sagan was an avid weed smoker and got some of his best ideas after lighting up. After reading the first couple lines of Demi's post, I'm convinced he is following in Sagan's footsteps.

DUDE, you just fried my brain!

Skynut

I would like to bet money that we will find life on another body in our solar system before I die.
I'll bet it is on a moon and is under the ice near the warmer climates.
I'll bet it looks nothing like anything we have seen here on earth.

The best part is if it is not discovered before I die than I am dead.
Good luck collecting suckers.

MrNightly

Demiurge wrote:

Dr. Carl Sagan, from one of his two books on the subject, Cosmos. This is his purely scientific view on the matter, and he's hardly a friend of the bible, so I am not even using someone in line with ID to form my argument.

The number is astronomical (pun intended), and I see a lot of folks in this thread throwing out the complex components needed to create life, let alone sustain it.

Now, to get complex about life....

There are an estimated 100,000,000,000 stars in this galaxy. There are an estimated 100,000,000,000 galaxies. The sun is roughly 1,000,000 times the size of the earth. The mass of the earth is roughly 6x10^27g (I will round that up to 10^28 grams).

Tryptophan is one of the 20 amino acids making up the others that create the proteins in life (intelligent or otherwise). I am using tryptophan as my basis to my argument.

The mass of tryptophan is 204 grams/mole (Which I will round down to make the numbers better for unbelievers). Lets say just 100 grams per mole. Thus, if the universe were one great big soup stock of amino acids, there would be about:

10^28 * 10^11 * 10^11 *10^6 * 6.022 * 10^23/100 molecules of amino acids in the universe.


That is less than 10^479 molecules in the universe.

For argument's sake, lets say dark matter is 9 times the visible universe, or a total of 10^79 amino acid molecules in the universe! Given that a hemoglobin molecule of protein is roughly a specific 600 link chain, each link is possibly one of the 20 amino acids mentioned earlier. Lets do some stats for a simple 100 link chain protein molecule. To get a specific chain, we would have one chance in 20^100 or roughly (rounding down to help the unbelievers) 10^130 of get that specific chain. Now lets say this soup of amino acids is actually 100 link chans randomly breaking apart and coming back together at 100,000,000,000,000 times per second for the entire hstory of the universe. The age of the universe is roughly 18,000,000,000 years (rounded up to about 100,000,000,000,000,000 seconds).

So, 10^130 / 10^79 / 10^17 = 10^34. You have one chance in 10^34 of getting the specific chain you must have)for there to be life.

See, it's a gigantic mind f*ck, and really isn't worth it. Knowing all of that means nothing.

The point of putting all that on paper is to show you need to wish, hope, pray, or whatever the hell you want for there to be life out there. Then, in the obscure chance that there was -- tell yourself it even mattered. There's nothing in our reaches, either physically or mentally, so why even belauguer the point?

The people that claim to have seen UFOs are full of shite. I'm sure they saw something, but UFOs manned by aliens they were not.

Not to mention, if we're not talking about intelligent life, who cares? Might be nice to look up at the sky and ask ".....are we alone?" The answer is yes, because the truth wouldn't feel any different.

Didn't read past the sixth line, eh?

Taken strickly from a mathmaticians point of view... sure am glad we didn't listen to math guys when we defied gravity and learned to fly!

Again, whether you believe in Creation or Evolution it really matters not in this thread: I believe it matters if you have dreams. Will we ever find other life out there? I doubt it highly in my lifetime. But I know we will in the future. We (Humans) will never settle for just saying there isn't life out there, until we have personally explored it and tasted it, felt it, smelt it ourselves.

And yes, I believe one day we will. Technology will only progress, and our minds are limitless on what we can accomplish, if we don't blow ourselves off the planet first, fighting our brothers.

Regardless, I find the topic one of the most addictive out there...

Skynut

Even if there is a "creator" why would the "creator" stop here?
Why not put the forces of life in motion elsewhere?

Demiurge

MrNightly wrote:

Taken strickly from a mathmaticians point of view... sure am glad we didn't listen to math guys when we defied gravity and learned to fly!

Again, whether you believe in Creation or Evolution it really matters not in this thread: I believe it matters if you have dreams. Will we ever find other life out there? I doubt it highly in my lifetime. But I know we will in the future. We (Humans) will never settle for just saying there isn't life out there, until we have personally explored it and tasted it, felt it, smelt it ourselves.

And yes, I believe one day we will. Technology will only progress, and our minds are limitless on what we can accomplish, if we don't blow ourselves off the planet first, fighting our brothers.

Regardless, I find the topic one of the most addictive out there...

That's taken strictly from a scientific point of view. Math is a science, but the makeup of life is also a science, and math is the means to solve the equation. The last part of the post is the most important to me. That even if the answer to your question is no, we are not alone -- That it doesn't matter. You won't feel any different in knowing that.

Also, life on other planets, let alone in our own solar system, isn't the same as flying to the moon.

Also, Skynut -- What planets with warmer teperatures than here on earth? Venus? Mercury? The farther away from the sun you get, the colder it gets.

Mars has a temp. of approx. -67 Degrees Farenheit....It doesn't get any warmer the farther out you go. So essentially, if there is no life on Mars, we're S.O.L. on the theory unless it's somehow beyond our solar system. Even then the conditions would need to be perfect and fall within the parameters noted above. Then, and only then, would your hopes come true. Then we fall back to the initial point....does it matter? No. Do you feel any different in knowing this? No.

Pluto's distance from Earth is a minimum of 4,284.7 A.U. and a maximum of 7,528.0 A.U.

For the purpose of scope, 1 Astronomical Unit (A.U.) = 149,598,000,000 meters. 1 mile = 1,609.344 meters.

So, the bottom line is -- that's a long f*cking way -- do the math. How do you purport we get to a planet like that? Mars is the only hope, and there is no intelligent life there. Life? Possible, but doubtful.

So, you tell me who is smoking the weed.

bobman1235

Demiurge wrote:

Also, Skynut -- What planets with warmer teperatures than here on earth? Venus? Mercury? The farther away from the sun you get, the colder it gets.

Mars has a temp. of approx. -67 Degrees Farenheit....It doesn't get any warmer the farther out you go. So essentially, if there is no life on Mars, we're S.O.L. on the theory unless it's somehow beyond our solar system. Even then the conditions would need to be perfect and fall within the parameters noted above. Then, and only then, would your hopes come true. Then we fall back to the initial point....does it matter? No. Do you feel any different in knowing this? No.

Not to mention that beyond Mars, all those planets are gaseous anyways, no land or "water" to speak of, unless you talk about a moon. Pluto, still maintaining its dubious distinction as a planet, is believed to be a degree or two ABOVE absolute zero at most times during its orbit - absolute zero being the point at which all molecular motion stops.

If there's life out there, it's not in this solar system, and like Demi keeps saying, it doesn't matter, because unless we're wrong about every law of physics, we'll never know.

Skynut

I believe there are 3 moons in our system that have thermal cores and liquid.
The liquid is described as water in many of the articles I have read.
The thought is, since they have liquid and a thermal core there is a variance of heat from the freezing cold surface to the warmer liquid core.
Somehwere in that range is life supporting fluid.
In the marianas (sp?) trench where pressures are too great for manned exploration we have sent exploration vehicles that have found life. Life that survives with no sunlight, high concentrations of nitrogen, and no contact with the surface.
What does it eat?
How sdoes it see?
How did it evolve to live in this extreme enviroment?
I don't know but I figure if we find life living on earth in places that would kill 98.5% of all life as we know it then why not elsewhere in our solar system?

Demiurge

What is life to you?

neomagus00

ah, the killer question... what is 'alive'? clearly, a protozoan is, but what about a virus? a prion? a prion pretty clearly is not, as it's just a misfolded protein, but where is the line in between?

as the majority of scientists would have it, a virus is not alive, because it cannot reproduce (i believe, this is presented without proof)... i know there's a list of around 5 traits required for something to be 'alive', but i cannot seem to remember it... anyone else know what i'm talking about?

BIZILL

Skynut wrote:

Bill gates was the first.
He came here from the year 5150 and made all his billions on an idea the government created years before his birth.
He was actually underpaid for a science experiment in time travel; an experiment in which he may or may not return.
He chose to stay and invest what little he had in a "new idea"
And the rest is history. or mystory.

ACTUALLY, i was graced the world in 1975. i don't care to believe in other forms of life, unless i experience it/them in person. even if they do exist, i doubt i'll ever see one/them in my lifetime.

Skynut

OK sooooo.



What if they are already here?
Suppose they came and we didn't notice them?
Perhaps they came in tiny micro-ships and we think they are the newest discovered life on this planet?
Perhaps 200 years ago when cancer was unknown they arrived and began feeding off our bodies?

Tons of space dust rains down on our planet each year; what if they just floated down and moved in?

We may never know.

Skynut

Even better yet,


What if we came here a few thousand years ago and just never left?

Now where did I put that missing link?

opus

I said No.

Are we alone? Most probably not but UFO's I don't think so. Why is it that we always assume that life on other planets is smarter than we are. Maybe they are just a bunch of dumbasses like us. Could be that a "vintage" '87 Yugo is a fine piece of equipment for them. There is just as good a chance that they up up to their asses in slimy space goo as anything. But then again they don't call me Dr. Kevin:)

BIZILL

if they do indeed exist, i hope we never have to utter the words, "can't we all just get along?":eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

BIZILL

Skynut wrote:

What if they are already here?

my boss looks like an alien with his ballcap removed.:p

Skynut

does he have grey skin?

Ewwwww

BIZILL

whitest scalp one should never have to experience...... again.:eek:

cfrizz

WAAAAAAAA!!!:D

john d. strong wrote:

Exactely! To think we are the only ones in existance is crazy. There are most likely civilizations watching us, but don't care to let us join them since we're fu**ing idiots and can't get along with one another. We're probably their Sunday night reality TV show.

"Oh man, I can't wait for tomorrow nights episode to see which country gets bombed!!! My $$$ is on such and such!!!"

George Grand

Demiurge my good man, you say "Intelligent life is not simple, it is very complex...."

I say "You need to get out and talk to some of these folks." Agreed, some people are pretty sharp, but there is also a lot of stuff out there that is just mobile protoplasm.

Speakergeek,
It wouldn't have been a bad idea if you had waited till you had a few more hundred posts before you laid that on us.

Polkersince85

There is a good "history" book, well read by many religious sects, that describes in detail a close encounter. Read it from UFO point of view. The chapter is called Ezekiel.

amulford

Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. We are still discovering as yet unknown life on this planet.

While the numbers against are compelling, the universe is size incomprehensible. We are not alone...

MrNightly

George Grand wrote:

Speakergeek,
It wouldn't have been a bad idea if you had waited till you had a few more hundred posts before you laid that on us.

He never replied... I am intriqued to see if he was joking or what...

TAB

God's creation..........isn't it AWESOME!!!

mrbigbluelight

Ron-P wrote:

I do not believe UFO's or Aliens. I do believe I had too much Smoked Porter yesterday.

Oh, is that what they call it nowadays.