The Wire Thing .

mantismantis Posts: 15,405
I'm looking at it this way,
build your system the way you choose.Wire makes a difference.I have heard it, if you can, great if you don't believe in it,thats fine 2.I'm not going to pull out my tech side on wire and why it makes a difference.
I will enjoy my upgrade with wire today and any other wir I buy in the future.
Dan
My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
Post edited by mantis on
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Comments

  • RuSsMaNRuSsMaN Posts: 17,995
    edited May 2002
    Mantis,

    Answer Troys questions first of all. Second, pull out your tech side, if you have hard data, I want to know what it is. I want to know why electrons (or whatever) flow better in Monster 14/2 vs bulk-lamp 14/2. You've made the claim, back it up. If it is just your 'ears', then I can accept that for what it is worth.

    C'mon, take your time, and get your post on. You can't participate in a firestorm like this, then simply say

    'I'm looking at it this way, build your system the way you choose.Wire makes a difference.I have heard it, if you can, great if you don't believe in it,thats fine 2.'

    If you feel as whipped as I do on the topic, thats fine also. I don't mean to get your **** hairs up, but you made a statement, I want to see you back it, or bow out gracefully, no harm done.

    Excuse me if I read to much into it (which is easy to do on a forum, I have myself have had things implied, that I did not mean), but a lot of your posts read as if you are saying 'I am right, no matter what you think, end of story, I am the PRO and you are a mere consumer'.

    There are guys here that have been listening/testing, not with their cornholes mind you ;) , before you were an itch in your daddy's pants (same goes for me). And I say that in the kindest possible way. Anyone's opinions are valued here, even more so someone with daily exposure in the industry we have all grown to love. I truely believe you have something to say, it's the delivery that kills (and moots the point).

    I'm gonna sign off on that note, unless you wish to discuss it further.....

    Cheers, (and I mean that)
    Russ
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
  • TroyDTroyD Posts: 12,144
    edited May 2002
    Here are the questions in case anyone forgot:

    1. How can you say that if there is no appreciable difference on a given speaker with a receiver and separates then there is with wire? Further, if you then make the statement that all components are of equal importance then the whole wire improvement thing holds even less water.

    2. ARE there any technical specs proving the superiority of one cable over another?


    I'm just asking for an explanation of your logic. Plain and simple.

    Normally, I'd just let it pass as I am a pretty jovial fellow but in this case, you have more or less ridiculed the intelligence of anyone who disagrees with you which isn't cool.

    I further agree with Russ, I honestly feel that you have some good points but also feel that you a pretty critical on those who disagree with you while offering little substantial evidence to validate your positions other than your resume.

    Big Dumb Troy
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
  • mantismantis Posts: 15,405
    edited May 2002
    OK,
    you guys are breaking me down.You want tech support and proof and all your other questions I will do my best to address.
    TroyD and Russman, you guys are tuff company.OK......
    TroyD you ask about the whole seperates/receivers/speakers/wire thing.You ask for tech proof,and I thing what I'm about to type(Isuck at it so excuse the type errors)will let you know where I'm comming from......
    1)Monstercable uses a reverse wound,on top of a magnflex tubing.This is there theory keeps noise out and time corrects the signals.Is it true????who knows.They also use diffenent gauge strands in there wire make up,also a theory they have.The materials that make up there jackets's also help keep noise out.This is where one wire can benifit over another.
    2)Transparent use a network brick that also keep noise out in certain frquencies.Above 20khz is where they focus on.Low level noise added to your sound degrades sound quality and purity.Then again noise at any point in the signal chain inhibits the ability of your music or film system to reveal all the subtle naunces of texture,tone,body,dimension,and contrast as you will(put it in your own words).This is where cridical sounds get altered,changes or missed.This is not a good thing.There network boxes reject noise in the passive...like a filter.They are also tuned to the specific length and type of cable to provide exactly the right balance of electrical properites for use of the cable with in your system.9hold on let me breath...in the noise out the mouth..ok im fine now).Now you ask yourself.."is it true or manufactor ****".
    3)My Philosophy is simply just this......Proof it.If I can't hear a difference, then all the tech babble in the world is useless.I don't care what they say about teflon which is what Transparent uses in there jackets,silver and gold being good conductors of electricity,Copper as well.Why I now shy away from tech spec's to a degree as I have read things about products that didn't come threw.Heres an example of what I mean....Watts.....simply put...you do the rest.
    4)Wire...theres alot out there....many do it very well.some better than other's.Best put by one of you is personal taste.That holds more water so 2 speak than any other tech spec.
    As far as the whole debate on Polk speakers with seperates is just this simple.In one word...Matching.....This is the key to hi fi or music fedelity.I really never meant that Polk can't benifit from seperates,any speaker can but if you do your homework as I have,you will come to terms with the Matching theory.Its mine and will gladly get into it if asked.
    Remember this one good point....your building a system,it's weakest link will be your strongest point.

    One last thing directed to TroyD and Russman.I come off strong sometimes,sometimes the things you post piss me off,but we are all here to learn......even me,I might come off as I know everything,I don't,I have alot to learn in this field,forever I am a student.
    If we can all leave are ego's at the door, I think we can learn so much from each other's experiences.I have a lot to share.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • mantismantis Posts: 15,405
    edited May 2002
    One more thing on the wire,
    If you guys have friends that use different kinds of wire, borrow it and test it against what you use,In there systems as well as your's.This is one way I got to experience so many different kinds of wire.Not just speaker wire but all system cables.
    Working in the field also has its advantages,manufactors/wire companies send samples for you to test.
    We got some of those Better cables sent to us,I haven't tested them but I will post after I do.
    Have fun guys with my post.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • TroyDTroyD Posts: 12,144
    edited May 2002
    Yes, let's leave ALL of our ego's at the door. Well put.

    I see where your going, what I was getting at is that your statements about things tend to contradict themselves. Additionally, we all don't hear things the same way and that is fine and that EVERYONES opinions should be respected, regardless of experience level. I respect yours, certainly and I would hope you would extend that level of respect and courtesy to others.

    I think tough questions and debate is a good thing, as long as it isn't personal.

    NEXT!

    Troy
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
  • weavercrweavercr Posts: 289
    edited May 2002
    Technical data on wire:
    Wire properties: (some)
    CAPACITANCE: Solid state amps don't like high capacitance
    running multiple wires in parallel reduces it.
    RESISTANCE:
    Wire diameter and length effect this Shorter length and larger diameter reduce the resistance,
    Resistance of the wire plus the speaker resistance is the total load the amp sees.
    Resistance of the wire reduces the signal applied to the speakers. The higher the resistance of the wire the less signal is applied to the speakers.

    INDUCTANCE:
    Probably has the most noticeable effect on the sound qualities of speakers wires. All kind of factor come into determining the wire inductance and there is very little you can do to the wire to change this. It all done during the wires manufacturing process. These things include wire diameter, twist in the wire. twist amongst the strands. Take CAT05e networking cable for example. the wire pairs are twisted at different turns per inch to reduce the inductance to allow higher frequency operation..
    The lower the inductance the better. Inductance is basically the resistance to change . the music signal on the wire is constantly changing on the wire.
    the lower the inductance , which means it is the "fastest", and it also has the most extended high frequencies. It will also be tight and clean. Remember inductance fights changing conditions, therefore high inductance will make the signal drag on and make for muddy sound.

    Noise:
    Its all about the shielding of the wire from outside sources. This effects interconnects more then it does speaker cables. Since this post is about speaker wire I wont go into that.
    Some ways noise is shielded is by the type of outer wire coverings and actual shielding wire. Such as the foil covering you commonly see on coaxial TV cable.

    EFFECTS on Sound:
    What difference does this actually make on the sound? well its all about what you can hear.
    It also depends a lot on what equipment you are using.
    On a all-in one portable system with detachable speakers, Probably not noticeable at all. But on a Krell amp with Wilson Audio Grand speakers yes you will hear a difference.
  • gidrahgidrah Posts: 3,031
    edited May 2002
    Unfortunately like anything else audio there is a "law of diminishing returns", and I'm a cheap ****. I'm running 12awg HomeDepot spkr, AQ sub, some Monster, and some cheapo. I noticed a big difference going to the 12awg, a smaller difference going to the AQ and Monster. Money well spent, but to invest twice as much wouldn't make twice the improvement for me.

    weavercr: Great post! If manufacturers would proveide(or if reviewers would start testing and publishing) their resistance/ft.(w/wo their connectors), inductance at a given length, noise, shielding, etc. this would be easier. It's GOT to be quantifiable.

    weavercr: Thanks for the bit on CAT5e. I've been thinking about doing a CAT5e DIY braided. You've just added more incentive. The twisting has me wondering if this would be an issue (benefit) when separating and braiding. Then again braiding makes for longer runs. Mmmmm:confused:

    Just to let you know: My 5 disc has optical and cheapo analogs hooked to it. Sometimes I actually prefer the cheapoes and have moved my MC elsewhere. I'm not about to invest money to improve on the analog when the optical suits my needs.

    P.S. My new 2ch set me back $350. Cable/wire investment yet to be determined. SunRa has AT-LEAST 150 (one hundred-fifty) recordings, I own 5 and like 4. There are artists out there that I LOVE and I don't own (or enough of) and ones I'm finding out about everyday. This is where my money goes.
    Make it Funky! :)
  • TroyDTroyD Posts: 12,144
    edited May 2002
    great posts!

    That's the kind of info that is helpful to a dumbass like me....

    Troy
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
  • Ron-PRon-P Spaceman Spiff Posts: 8,511
    edited May 2002
    Wire is wire, nothing more, nothing less, just wire. Big, small, short, long, fat, skinny. They just make it look pretty so they can charge you more for it. Ohhhhh I'll buy some of that silver laced wire for $8/ft.:lol: Oh, yes, the sound difference is out standing. My front stage is sooooo much wider now:lol: The clarity is out of this world, my bass is soooo much tighter now:lol:

    Oh yeah, dts is way better than dd.

    The ONLY thing we know as fact is that Budweiser and Coors is NOT beer.

    Peace Out~:D
    If...
    Ron dislikes a film = go out and buy it.
    Ron loves a film = don't even rent.
  • nascarmannnascarmann Posts: 1,464
    edited May 2002
    The ONLY thing we know as fact is that Budweiser and Coors is NOT beer.

    LOL!:lol:
    Oh, the bottle has been to me, my closes friend, my worse enemy!
  • RuSsMaNRuSsMaN Posts: 17,995
    edited May 2002
    Hate to bust your bubble, but Coors is beer. Not a fine, impress the friends, or act like a micro-brew hipster dude...

    But a Saturday afternoon, just finished mowing the lawn, time to down a couple cheapies brew....

    Your dad drank it, your granddad drank it, your great granddad drank it....

    Now, I wouldn't give a bucket of piss for Coors light, or any light beer for that matter, but Bud, Coors, Regular Schlitz..... Those are beers..... (great keg beers too....)

    Cheers,
    Russ 'Red, White and the Pabst Blue Ribbon' Gates
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
  • hoosier21hoosier21 Posts: 4,399
    edited May 2002
    My favorite everyday beer is Miller in the bottle, Ice cold, you gotta love it.

    Budwiser give me a headach and hearthburn
    Coors is cool with me,
    Coors light ok if thats what you got
    Miller Lite no thanks
    Little Kings - I love them too, give me a cooler full of the 8 oz. bottles
    Corona yea baby, slice of lime and the beach I'm all for that

    "Hey Hoosier21 who in the F#%$ asked you?"

    I will sit down and shut up now
    Dodd - Battery Preamp
    Monarchy Audio SE100 Delux - mono power amps
    Sony DVP-NS999ES - SACD player
    ADS 1230 - Polk SDA 2B
    DIY Stereo Subwoofer towers w/(4) 12 drivers each
    Crown K1 - Subwoofer amp
    Outlaw ICBM - crossover
    Beringher BFD - sub eq

    Where is the remote? Where is the $%#$% remote!

    "I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us have...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
  • Ron-PRon-P Spaceman Spiff Posts: 8,511
    edited May 2002
    Hate to bust your bubble, but Coors is beer.
    To you, fine, I can accept that. To me, no it's not. No mater if George Washington drank it, I cannot call it beer, more like carbonated piss water, but that's just me.
    But a Saturday afternoon, just finished mowing the lawn, time to down a couple cheapies brew....
    I can see why you need to down them. Now, a good Pale Ale, Hefeweizen or IPA to sit back, relaze and enjoy. That is what a Saturday afternoon, after mowing the lawn deserves.


    Peace Out~:D
    If...
    Ron dislikes a film = go out and buy it.
    Ron loves a film = don't even rent.
  • RuSsMaNRuSsMaN Posts: 17,995
    edited May 2002
    Wanna step outside and compare bellies? See who has the right to run this here beer thread?

    I'll take a good pale anyday, I just have a problem buyin the 'good' stuff all the time. Especially on those days when its not really about the beer, its about me getting to where I want to be, and getting there soon....

    Cheers,
    Russ

    You are only renting them suds......
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
  • TroyDTroyD Posts: 12,144
    edited May 2002
    That's what your Granddad's drank.....that and unfiltered Lucky Strikes....

    Sometimes you just have to clear your palate....if you drink the good stuff all the time, you don't really appreciate it as much.

    Having said that, go to Korea and drink some OB, then you will know what crappy beer is all about.

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
  • Ron-PRon-P Spaceman Spiff Posts: 8,511
    edited May 2002
    Wanna step outside and compare bellies? See who has the right to run this here beer thread?
    :lol:
    Especially on those days when its not really about the beer, its about me getting to where I want to be, and getting there soon....
    Ok, OK. That is where Jager comes in for me. One, or two shots of this and I am in my happy place.


    Peace Out~:D
    If...
    Ron dislikes a film = go out and buy it.
    Ron loves a film = don't even rent.
  • nascarmannnascarmann Posts: 1,464
    edited May 2002
    Good cold Miller Highlife in the bottle is just fine and dandy for me(my every day beer). Corona is damn good, but when you bust 6-10 a day and 40 on the weekend end $hit? And the belly thing(damn it boy), lets not go there?:lol:
    Oh, the bottle has been to me, my closes friend, my worse enemy!
  • johnnyamerikajohnnyamerika Posts: 382
    edited May 2002
    Sorry guys, Budwieser is as cheap as I go...anything in a can...no thank you....schlitz...that's just asking for jokes to be made :)

    Lager has been reduced to piss.... you got 50 brands of crap on the shelves...at least Michelobe is making 'different' beers.

    It's not just about imports, but British Ale is where it's at. But American stuff is good too....just don't come to me with Miller Lite or Coors Cutter and expect a straight face. :D

    Amber Bock, hell yeah! Yuengling, one of my favorites! All those beers are cheap enough to buy and drink. I switch all the time for variety, but I don't need that $2.50 6 pack to get loaded. That's like buying Albertson's Vodka and expecting no hangover! No wonder you have killer beer farts, Russ! :D
  • weavercrweavercr Posts: 289
    edited May 2002
    HA HA now that a funny one

    you want Manufactures to post spec on wire.



    If they did and you saw how little change there would be for Big Bucks they would never Sell anything. As far as silver wire for speaker cable being that much better than copper. I wont buy into that one.

    Yes there is a difference in audio cables some are obvious like Radio shack 24 gage to monster cable 12 gage.

    But Monster cable 12 ga to radio shack 12 gage I think not.

    When you get to premimun cable dont expect a major sound change, it will be so minor. You wiil need premimum equipment to hear the difference. The bigest change will be on the upper frequencies.

    IMO all of the premimum cables are over priced. Grossly so.
  • nascarmannnascarmann Posts: 1,464
    edited May 2002
    When you get to premimun cable dont expect a major sound change, it will be so minor. You wiil need premimum equipment to hear the difference. The bigest change will be on the upper frequencies.

    Amen!spot_party.gif
    Oh, the bottle has been to me, my closes friend, my worse enemy!
  • johnnyamerikajohnnyamerika Posts: 382
    edited May 2002
    Actually Silver and Gold are not as good of conductors as pure oxygen free copper. But they are noble metals, and don't oxydize or corrode as quickly.
  • AaronAaron Posts: 1,853
    edited May 2002
    The conductivity numbers I saw showed silver to be the best conductor.

    Aaron
  • johnnyamerikajohnnyamerika Posts: 382
    edited May 2002
    I thought I had read that Silver was very highly conductive, but not AS conductive as copper in it's purist form. I think I misconstrued this remark:

    "It can be solid, stranded, copper, oxygen free copper, silver, etc.--or even "magic" wire--as long as the resistance is kept to be less than 5% of the speaker impedance. There is no listening difference as long as the wire is of adequate size."

    Speaker Wire
    A History
    by Roger Russell
  • mantismantis Posts: 15,405
    edited May 2002
    Beer .......enough said.
    Wire I think someone was on to something with the post about hearing the benifits of real high end wire with HIGHER end gear.Now my Matching point is starting to surface.Someones thinking.
    :) ;)
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • mantismantis Posts: 15,405
    edited May 2002
    Back to beer,
    I enjoy many different kinds of beer, over the last year or so I have been serching for the perfect beer for me.So far my attemps have failed.I like lots of different kinds.
    I find some beers are suited to moods like wine is.(I also have a soft spot for wine).
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
  • TroyDTroyD Posts: 12,144
    edited May 2002
    If you really enjoy beer, I would encourage you to consider homebrewing. Reasonably inexpensive, lots of fun and the quality of the beer can be extraordinary......

    If I can do it, anyone can.

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
  • etriganetrigan Posts: 160
    edited May 2002
    :D I agree w/Ron P !
    my choice (since it was introduced is-Molson Ice)
    That is my choice 98% of the time,but I may start the evening w/a couple "o" Guinness/Harp/Sapporo/Bigfoot/Kirin/Taj Mahal/Kingfisher/ depends what the wife cooks,or we order out.
    nothin' goes better with chicken vindaloo than a couple of Mahal's
    (big bottle of course!
    CHEERS! jefff)
    Art as expression-Not as market campaigns-Will still capture our imaginations.
  • johnnyamerikajohnnyamerika Posts: 382
    edited May 2002
    Oh ****! I had Chicken Vindaloo last night....I ordered extra spicy, and the Indian guy looked at me like "You crazy little white boy!"

    Needless to say it was like lava :) I loved it :D Didn't have any Mahal's with it tho, they only had kingfisher, but I was driving.
  • etriganetrigan Posts: 160
    edited May 2002
    Vindaloo,extra spicy!?! :eek:
    you're INSANE! ;)
    CHEERS! jefff
    Art as expression-Not as market campaigns-Will still capture our imaginations.
  • johnnyamerikajohnnyamerika Posts: 382
    edited May 2002
    Oh I know, I couldn't finish it all it was so hot! and the next morning....let's just say my stomach's felt better...
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