Digital Amp shootout at GR Research

RuSsMaN
RuSsMaN Posts: 17,986
edited March 2006 in Electronics
Stay tuned for pictures and details....

All testing was done blind. The only person that knew which amp we were all listening to was Danny. We had just a few reference tracks, and listened to only the first minute of each, 2 times in a row before switching amps.

I may have the spelling wrong, and will verify - but we had offerings from:

Superphon
Edge
Exodus
ART
Dodd's 400wpc in an Adbomb case
and a couple more - I'll check my notes....

Once the screen (hiding the amps) was removed, the results were very telling. I will say this, one amp, on one song - had me on the edge of tears. Nothing ran down my face - but I was clearly misty.

Cheers,
Russ
Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
Post edited by RuSsMaN on
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  • Early B.
    Early B. Posts: 7,900
    edited February 2006
    Cool!! Looking forward to this one.

    Russ, how does the sound of digital amps compare to tube amps?
    HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50” LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub

    "God grooves with tubes."
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  • cfrizz
    cfrizz Posts: 13,415
    edited February 2006
    And how does it compare with solid state amps?
    Early B. wrote:
    Cool!! Looking forward to this one.

    Russ, how does the sound of digital amps compare to tube amps?
    Marantz AV-7705 PrePro, Classé 5 channel 200wpc Amp, Oppo 103 BluRay, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Sony XBR-49X800E TV, Polk S60 Main Speakers, Polk ES30 Center Channel, Polk S15 Surround Speakers SVS SB12-NSD x2
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  • aaharvel
    aaharvel Posts: 4,489
    edited February 2006
    RuSsMaN wrote:
    one amp, on one song - had me on the edge of tears.

    this should be interesting.
    H/K Signature 2.1+235
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  • Midnite Mick
    Midnite Mick Posts: 1,591
    edited February 2006
    RuSsMaN wrote:
    Superphon
    Edge
    Exodus
    ART
    Dodd's 400wpc in an Adbomb case
    and a couple more - I'll check my notes....


    Do you know if nuforce is in there--not really digital but chip amp nonetheless....just curious
    getting mine Monday

    Mick
    Modwright SWL 9.0 SE (6Sons Audio Thunderbird PC with Oyaide 004 terminations)
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  • RuSsMaN
    RuSsMaN Posts: 17,986
    edited February 2006
    No, NuForce backed out at the last minute (and if you asked me, in a chicken **** manner). Nonetheless (sorry Mick, I can't sugar coat it) - we've never gotten those amps to sound good - on ANYTHING.

    Cathy - it's comparable to solid state BIG time. Gary's Adbomb, putting out 400w /4ohm would go toe to toe with almost ANY sand amp, any price. Tubes are still different, better? That's something you need to decide.

    I will say this, I fired up the line arrays tonight on the SE 211's - nothing I heard today makes me want to change this setup. However, digital is here, and here to stay.

    I've got crow to eat, as the details come out (still gathering thoughts and just relaxing for a while), but it's never about ego, pride, etc - it's all about the sound, and the joy of listening.

    Cheers,
    Russ
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
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  • Midnite Mick
    Midnite Mick Posts: 1,591
    edited February 2006
    I am going to take these posts to another forum for a response. I don't know but I heard them on the lsi15's and they sounded great. But I will see what nuforces response is just out of curiousity.
    Modwright SWL 9.0 SE (6Sons Audio Thunderbird PC with Oyaide 004 terminations)
    Consonance cd120T
    Consonance Cyber 800 tube monoblocks (6Sons Audio Thunderbird PC's with Oyaide 004 terminations)
    Usher CP 6311

    Phillips Pronto TS1000 Universal Remote
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  • RuSsMaN
    RuSsMaN Posts: 17,986
    edited February 2006
    Ask Nuforce, as with any manufacturer - you're going to get a biased opinion.

    Get out there, and listen for yourself - they offer a money back I assume? If you dig 'em, who am I to tell you any different?

    It (the shootout) will be discussed in detail on Audiocircle, fyi.
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
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  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited February 2006
    I think that the event was done very well from what I've been gathering, rock on. I look forward to the formal comments from the group.

    Don't divulge that song Russ, that's a private life changer for the little people :)
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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  • hoosier21
    hoosier21 Posts: 4,413
    edited February 2006
    http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/viewtopic.php?p=231241#231241

    No details yet, just the pre event b.s.
    Dodd - Battery Preamp
    Monarchy Audio SE100 Delux - mono power amps
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    Where is the remote? Where is the $%#$% remote!

    "I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us have...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
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  • michael_w
    michael_w Posts: 2,813
    edited February 2006
    What kind of pre was running behind the amps? Sounds like a good time Russ.

    I had my voight pipes running off some diy 60 watt chip monoblocks yesterday. It really brought out the highs on them but we lost a bit of control with the bass. I guess chip amps are better suited for different speakers than say a tube or ss amp. (in this case a more laid back subtle speaker)

    So since this was a blind test and all, which was your favorite?
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  • RuSsMaN
    RuSsMaN Posts: 17,986
    edited February 2006
    We used Gary's new battery powered tube preamp. I list my choices, and pics tonight.
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
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  • dragon1952
    dragon1952 Posts: 4,907
    edited February 2006
    RuSsMaN wrote:
    I will say this, one amp, on one song - had me on the edge of tears. Nothing ran down my face - but I was clearly misty.

    Cheers,
    Russ


    That was the song that was playing when he spilled his brewski no doubt :D
    2 channel - Willsenton R8 tube integrated, Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE DAC, audio optimized NUC7i5, Windows 10 Pro/JRiver MC29/Fidelizer Plus 8.7 w/LPS and external SSD drive, PS Audio PerfectWave P3 regenerator, KEF R3 speakers, Rythmik F12SE subwoofer, Audioquest Diamond USB cable, Gabriel Gold IC's, Morrow Audio SP5 speaker cables. Computer - Windows 10/JRiver, Schiit Magni 3+/Modi 3+, Fostex PMO.4n monitors, Sennheiser HD600 headphones
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  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    edited February 2006
    Man, I just don't like these sort of comparisons even though I'm sure it was done with a lot of thought and pride of processes. The reason? Because if you took another preamp of the same quality the results would vary due to synergy. Same with the speakers, interconnects etc. I've tossed a lot of great gear because of lack of synergy. Still, very interesting to hear about!
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
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  • michael_w
    michael_w Posts: 2,813
    edited February 2006
    That's true. Some gear sounds better with gear that might sound like crap when combined with something else. You still have to have some kind of control in order to compare things. If you changed more than one componnent at a time how are you supposed to accuratly compare?
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  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    edited February 2006
    michael_w wrote:
    If you changed more than one componnent at a time how are you supposed to accuratly compare?

    I totally agree. I have no solution. To make it worse the selections of music will have a big impact too. Quite often I find 10 CD's that sound awesome on system 1 but bland and lifeless on system 2, yet 10 other CD's sound awesome on system 2 but not system 1.

    I just don't know how you would remove synergy from the equation. :confused:

    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
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  • Early B.
    Early B. Posts: 7,900
    edited February 2006
    Synergy, like everything else in audio, is highly subjective. You can't control for it. So for the purposes of this listening experiment, it is not relevant.
    HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50” LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub

    "God grooves with tubes."
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  • RuSsMaN
    RuSsMaN Posts: 17,986
    edited March 2006
    I agree and disagree at the same time. If the back end, source, preamp etc are up to snuff - the amplifiers job is a simple one, and if one amp chokes, I really can't find blame anywhere else but with the amp itself.

    Here is Danny's writeup on the NuForce:

    http://www.gr-research.com/amps/nuforce.htm

    The ongoing shootout info is here (still compiling and formatting the review sheets):

    http://www.gr-research.com/amps/amps.htm
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
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  • Holydoc
    Holydoc Posts: 1,048
    edited March 2006
    Russman,

    One thing I am confused about during your shoot-out is how did you guys deal with calibration? In other words each of the amps would of output power to the speakers differently. Therefore if you just switched from Amp A to Amp B without calibration, you would of had a volume difference. This could of easily swayed you at times since even a small increase in volume may have caused you to become bias.

    Was just wondering if that was considered?
    Holydoc (Home Theatre Lover)
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  • RuSsMaN
    RuSsMaN Posts: 17,986
    edited March 2006
    It was considered, and compensated for accordingly. In a dead quiet room, it was easy to figure out how high the gain had to be on each. Was it dead on exact, no - the object was to listen and compare with as short a span of time as possible, in between.

    I will say, for me and most of the others, there were 3 obviously good to great amps, and the rest simply paled in comparison - at any volume, with any music selection. It suprised me actually, the differences presented themselves readily, and easily. There was nothing subtle between the good, and the well, not so good.

    Cheers,
    Russ
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
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  • marvda1
    marvda1 Posts: 4,904
    edited March 2006
    anyone else attend the shootout and want to comment?
    Amplifiers: Norma IPA 140, MasterSound Compact 845, Ayre v6xe, Consonance Cyber 800
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  • hotwheelman
    hotwheelman Posts: 1,300
    edited March 2006
    dorokusai wrote:
    Don't divulge that song Russ, that's a private life changer for the little people :)

    I resemble that remark, so whats the song???

    I tell you, treys t-amp really makes his r30's sing and I have been rather impressed by the little ****.
    "Its worked so far but we're not out yet."
    "Hey big man let me hold a dollar"
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  • halo
    halo Posts: 5,616
    edited March 2006
    The results are in! LINK
    Audio: Polk S15 * Polk S35 * Polk S10 * SVS SB-1000 Pro
    HT: Samsung QN90B * Marantz NR1510 * Panasonic DMP-BDT220 * Roku Ultra LT * APC H10
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  • I-SIG
    I-SIG Posts: 2,243
    edited March 2006
    Good stuff. I'll leave it at that and let everyone else read up!

    Wes
    Link: http://polkarmy.com/forums

    Sony 75" Bravia 4K | Polk Audio SDA-SRS's (w/RDO's & Vampire Posts) + SVS PC+ 25-31 | AudioQuest Granite (mids) + BWA Silver (highs) | Cary Audio CAD-200 | Signal Cable Silver Resolution XLR's | Rotel Michi P5 | Signal Cable Silver Resolution XLR's | Cambridge Audio azur 840C--Wadia 170i + iPod jammed w/ lossless audio--Oppo 970 | Pure|AV PF31d
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