Mirage versus SVS

VR3

Its very simple really...

1) The Mirage dosnt hit as low as the SVS. He is buying this for HT, and the extention of the sub is very important. Your looking at a 25-30hz roll off vs. 20-15hz.

2) It dosnt have the power or the driver(s)

The Paradigm? It has the extention, the power, AND the driver -- and not to mention its made in Canada.

Yeah thats how I can recomend it. Ok?

For HT - subs are very cut and dry... how far does the driver move, how low does it hit with power... thats about all you need to know

okiepolkie

Bravo, very well said Sid.

janmike

I need to go away, get deep in thought by myself and make a decision. That's just my way of saying hmmmmmm. Damn good analysis all ways. Don't you love that analytical, competitive, negotiation process? Hell, I get excited about this stuff.

VR3

How much would a PB12 ISD cost you?

janmike

Looking at the PB12-ISD with shipping will come in under the $1K (CDN $) mark. The shipping may be a little less. I am not sure about the 3 different models listed below, but will read up on them.

PB12–ISD/2
PB12–ISD/V
PB12–ISD

If I look at the recommendation from SVS, they knew my room size (18.5 X 14.5 X 7) and an open entry way at one end (77" X 32"). I have no intention of putting a door on that entry way as it opens to the areas. What I do not want to do is under power that room nor do I want the windows, floor, or pictures to vibrate. I just want to feel the impact somewhat. Perhaps one of the other units would suffice. It did like the cherry finish though. Sorry, I am not an impulse buyer, never have been, nor do I want to be.

VR3

Man...

If you get that Mirage, I can garuntee it will not compare to the lowest 12 ISD, it just wont happen...

ISD/2 = 2 drivers

ISD V - its tuneable

12 ISD - 22hz tune

janmike

No Man here, Just Michael. I'll look at the differences of these 3. I know you are very knowledgeable of bass and a HUGE advocate of SVS, but I have to ask the question as others have. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the promotion of a product that you have had experience with, but how can you condemn (And I use the word lightly) a product that you have never listened to before. That would be like me saying that unless you buy a Canon Digital SLR you will not be happy. Do not but Nikon, Pentax, or Olympus. I do own the Canon, but have NEVER used those others. That does not make Canon better as I see it, it's a personal preference. Do not take me wrong Sid, I like additional info, but if you have never heard the others so how do you know other than looking at the specs. I deal with engineers all day long and that is their perception of reality. I often find myself telling them to open their eyes, think outside the box, experiment…. Carl Jung had a field day this personality trait.

WilliamM2

Well said?

1) The Mirage dosnt hit as low as the SVS. He is buying this for HT, and the extention of the sub is very important. Your looking at a 25-30hz roll off vs. 20-15hz.

The Mirage is +/-3db at 19hz, not 25 0r 30. It has usable output to 15hz.

2) It dosnt have the power or the driver(s)

The PB12-ISD has a 320 watt Bash amp, the Mirage has a 300 watt Bash amp, WOW...what a huge difference. The driver of the Mirage/Energy subs also has more surface area due to the eliptical suround. And 1.61" excursion ain't bad either.

The Paradigm? It has the extention, the power, AND the driver -- and not to mention its made in Canada.

The Mirage/Energy subs are also made in Canada. And they have more output than any Paradigm sub. Check the link, the Energy (same sub) is compared to many subs. They are rated highest to lowest output, you may note it is near the top of the list:

http://members.cox.net/fabulousfrankie/Nousaine.htm

I have not heard that SVS sub, so I have no comment about it's sound. I did audition the Paridigm's, because they are the only subs I can get locally. I was totally unimpressed, especially for the $$.

But I judge speakers on how they sound, not spec sheets.

VR3

If you looking to buy a music only subwoofer, i would tell you go out there and listen. Fact is, you arnt. Your looking for a HT sub and last I checked an HT sub requires almost no accuracy at all.

Most bass notes in a movie are loud, rumbling bowl moving notes, ranging from way up in the spectrum to the lowest of notes.

With a HT sub, you shouldnt even CONSIDER a subwoofer that dosnt have a -3db response of 20-23hz. It shouldnt even be on your list. Because out of all the subs out there, there are a ton for the money your looking to spend that can do it.

You think I cant not recomend the Mirage because I havnt heard it. Im not going to say you're wrong, but it dosnt hit flat to 20hz, it dosnt have the power - and yes, while SVS has the same size amp, they also have TWICE the enclosure. They also utilize drivers that move 2" linear. These are all things that equate to a highly effecient subwoofer that hits LOW and with force.

SVS is the HT authority, they are good with music, but Home Theater is their playground.

You can show me any subwoofer in any price range - and your goals are HT, if they dont have a tuning point around 20-23hz, I wouldnt even look at them.

In my room, I can hit down to 15hz at 81db (85db = 100hz), thats only a -4db drop off. The Mirage might get me down to 22hz. You may think those extra hz dont add to the experience, well Im here to tell you that you would be mistaken, Ive watched plenty of movies with those low notes in them and it makes the purchase worth it each time...

HT and Music are very different things. SVS is the best you're going to get for HT.

Big Enclosures, Big Amps, High Excursion Drivers, Ruler Flat Response.

Its not marketing, its not a bias, its not an opinion - for the price, you wont go louder, lower, or cleaner from an OEM brand - maybe DIY, but not OEM.

HSU will get you close, but their extention isnt quite there where SVS is at.

You may think Im pressing SVS because I own them, not quite. I would dump my SVS for an Adire or a DIY sub any second - but I have yet to hear a sub, OEM that offers a better value for HT.

VR3

WilliamM2 wrote:

Well said?



The Mirage is +/-3db at 19hz, not 25 0r 30. It has usable output to 15hz.

I was going by what I read in the review. Which didnt have much to say about its low extention, it said it was there. And thats about it.



The PB12-ISD has a 320 watt Bash amp, the Mirage has a 300 watt Bash amp, WOW...what a huge difference. The driver of the Mirage/Energy subs also has more surface area due to the eliptical suround. And 1.61" excursion ain't bad either.

The PB12 ISD also has a larger enclosure than the Mirage which makes it more effecient. How does a surround add surface area to anything? The cone is what moves air, the surround is doing nothing more than controlling the cone. Unless they came up with some way to make the surround the cone - I dont see how this is giving it more surface area. But then again, Im no Mirage guru and they may be revolutionizing the technology as I know it.

The SVS also moved 2" linear - larger enclosure, more excursion.

Mirage - 19.29 x 15.67 x 19.41
SVS - 18" wide x 21" high x 20" deep.



The Mirage/Energy subs are also made in Canada. And they have more output than any Paradigm sub. Check the link, the Energy (same sub) is compared to many subs. They are rated highest to lowest output, you may note it is near the top of the list:

http://members.cox.net/fabulousfrankie/Nousaine.htm

According to that link, an SVS - with the older driver hit 4-5 db LOUDER than the Energy S12 (w/e is model # is) at 20hz. The energy only hit .5 louder on average. Also, according to that link - the Energy's roll of is 25hz, NOT 19hz.

The SVS hit louder in every single interval except overall. And Im pretty sure thats a test done with the older drivers. So I am missing where your argument is at with that... the link just disproves Mirage/Energy's specs and strengthens my entire statement.

I have not heard that SVS sub, so I have no comment about it's sound. I did audition the Paridigm's, because they are the only subs I can get locally. I was totally unimpressed, especially for the $$.

But I judge speakers on how they sound, not spec sheets.

....

VR3

From the review based on the link you gave me -

"The primary SV Subwoofer (SVS) products are a series of different sized 12-inch bass reflex passive subwoofers. They have now introduced a line of similar products, their "Powered Cylinder" subs, which include an internal 190-watt amplifier with an integrated crossover. None of the passive "Cylinder Series" subwoofers include any crossover, so either you must have one built into your current system or you'll need to purchase one separately. The Paradigm X-30 is an excellent moderately priced ($160) device to consider."

This is the older line of SVS. The newer line of SVS used a beefed up woofer. It hits 3-4db louder at all volumes. This is the original PC/CS line, not the PCI line.

VR3

If you want real bang for your buck...

Build a subwoofer.

Ascendant, Adire, Dayton, etc.

But your not going to sit here and tell me that a $800 dollar subwoofer is better than a $600 dollar subwoofer, especially when the link you sent me says its not even with the older, lesser driver.

I must be the most confusing person to read, because its like everyone want to battle with me. Well bring it on beatch.

This is 20hz response, no room gain - straight up in the chamber...



This is the PB12 ISD - RULER FLAT for $600 bucks. Hmm

WilliamM2

How does a surround add surface area to anything? The cone is what moves air, the surround is doing nothing more than controlling the cone.

The larger the surround, the smaller the cone area, The eliptical surround on the Energy/Mirage is much narrower than most drivers, this leaves more space for cone area in the 12" basket. You don't need to be a Mirage "guru" to figure that out. See pics.

So I am missing where your argument is at with that... the link just disproves Mirage/Energy's specs and strengthens my entire statement.

Read my post, the link was to compare them to the Paridigm subs, which YOU said had more power, better drivers, etc. But they don't come close. Go listen to them and see for yourself.

The frequency chart from SVS is in a chamber, the frequency specs for the Mirage are in room, I doubt any sub is ruler flat in room without some EQ.

I would agree that the SVS should be a better sub from all I have read, I have no problem with that. What I didn't understand, was how you could compare the Paridigm and the Mirage when you have not heard either of them.

VR3

I dont have much more to say in this thread.

Im pro SVS, William is Pro Energy/Mirage. He can say whatever he wants and I can say whatever I want.

Fact is, the SVS was louder with the older driver and less power. The new SVS products feature 130 more watts, a driver that moves farther, takes more power. Has a thicker cylinder enclosure, its just better. Its louder, it goes deeper louder. It is a better subwoofer than the link he sent me shows. And even then, the SVS was the better of the two.

You can throw sound over specs all you want, but I can show you a graph of the new SVS and I can show you numbers against the Mirage/Energy, which it gets beat by a lesser version of the sub your looking at (SVS).

Now my response may make me look like a SVS ****, ****, w/e - I dont care. Im trying to show you that the SVS is the better subwoofer, it dosnt matter how you want to flip it, turn, it bop it, twist it - its the better sub, on paper. If you can hear the difference, if there is any at all (in quality) during a movie, then you have golden ears. But it just dosnt matter in a movie.

VR3

William,
I never said Paradigm is better - I mentioned one sub by Paradigm and it is better and it costs more.

As for the surround - more surface area, it may have more cone, but it dosnt move as much as the SVS by about .4" - which is quite alot. Its just another moot point.

Im really not trying to sound like Im "right...you're wrong" - I promise you, Im just trying to show Mike over here that he would be going south instead of north getting the Mirage over SVS. The SVS, IS the better subwoofer.

Servo 15 - http://www.paradigm.com/Website/SiteReferenceProduct/RModels/Servo/ServoSeries.html Baybe.

janmike

I would like to thank everyone for their contribution. If I remember correctly, I posted other concerns of mine a fews year ago with regards to what additions I should make to my system and the discussion got a little hot. Bottom line, it helped me make a decision. And so has this one. When I purchase the sub, I will reopen this thread and post the picture. Gentlemen, it has been a pleasure as always. I really appreciate your knowledge and it's what makes this forum a great place to be. Thanks.

VR3

lol..

Im sure yall make a good decision, alot of info has been laid out in this thread.

PS: I meant no disrepect calling you "man" - Im just 17.. ya know...

janmike

Hey, no disrespect taken. I know you are 17. Funny thing, I was 17 once and that was many years ago. You have more knowledge in that area than I probably ever will. I commend you for that. And until we meet again, thanks Sid.

WilliamM2

I hope this thread didn't appear to be getting "hot". Not my intention.

Good luck on your decision.

janmike

Not at all. Great input Will.

janmike

Well, I pinged a guy that purchased a Mirage S12 brand new and then received a deal on an SVS PC Ultra. He has the S12 for sale and it has never been out of the box, although he did demo the S12 before he placed the order. I just wanted his opinion and here is a guy that has heard both.

"I demoed the S12 at a store and liked it, goes low and has a nice punch
without being too boomy. Very fast response. The one I have I never
hooked up or took out of its box.
I would say the SVS Ultra is in a league on its own...tremendous low
bass that is unyielding. I used to run 2 x RBH 1010's and even they do
not compare to the Ultra.
The S12 at it's price range is a front runner. Don't think sub will beat
it at that price... I don't even think the HSU VTF3 MkII. That is why I
purchased it but when I came across the deal on the Ultra I could not
turn it down."

Those are his exact words, not mine. I wonder how the PC Ultra compares to the PB12-Plus.

VR3

The PB12 Plus (dual) is louder than the PC Ultra.

The PC Ultra though is louder than the Plus by about 3-4db.

The Ultra driver though, really - its just an amazing driver, its sound, its force - its an amazing sounding subwoofer. Very smooth, very clean...

It cost $580 for a reason (the driver)... just an amazing driver.

janmike

Well I just order my new sub. I guess listening will be the true test. I have a dozen colleagues waiting for the sub to arrive and then we will have a HT audition party. Thanks for all the help folks.

unc2701

Just for the record, the LSIW made nails pop out of my ceiling. A little different from cracking a wall, but still....

michael_w

Geeze, who built your house?

schwarcw

Congrats! You'll love it!

AzN_plyR

Shouldn't you just compare the Mirage S12 to the SVS PB10 ONLY, and yet, the SVS would still go deeper and louder at lower freq.... can't really compare the mirage to the SVS 12 inchers...... that thing will get murdered.

janmike

The initial comparison was done through financial analysis alone. Well, better too much than not enough. I can always turn it down.

janmike

SVS informed me that my PB12-Plus was shipped out Friday. As of this evening, it's in Calgary. WOW! That's what I call coming fast. It will probably be here Monday. Can't wait.

Shipment History
Date Time Pieces Activity Location Remarks
22-Apr-2006 2347 1 Scanned Calgary, AB, CA
22-Apr-2006 1252 1 Scanned Toledo, OH, US
22-Apr-2006 0058 1 Arrived Toledo, OH, US
21-Apr-2006 2250 1 Departed Cleveland, OH, US
21-Apr-2006 2158 1 Scanned Cleveland, OH, US
21-Apr-2006 2048 1 Shipment Labeled Cleveland, OH, US
21-Apr-2006 1700 1 Received Akron/Canton, OH, US

AndyGwis

Let us all know how it sounds when it gets here. This has become a suspenseful and intriguing thread!

I own the Omni s12, but with a NIB at Tweeter for $360 and putting the free-with-purchase PSW10 towards it, I walked out with less than $180 out of pocket. Obviously, it was a no brainer for my particular situation.

If the SVS is that awesome, I may put my Mirage to duty as low-end backup on my future 2-channel rig (it seems musical, looks great, and fairly compact) and buy one of those monsters for HT use.