The Most Incredible Sound Rig You Ever.....

VR3

Anyone wanting to read up on a few things can check this site out...

http://www.glenbrook.k12.il.us/gbssci/phys/Class/sound/u11l3d.html

I tired my best to understand most of it, but some of it is beyond my comprehension... hehe

audiobliss

Keep in mind I know *nothing* about this, I'm just using (I hope) some logic to formulate an idea based on what I've read here.

If the rear wave hits the wall and reverses phase, it would then be in phase with the front wave. Now, Sid's saying that it wouldn't matter because the front wave would hit a wall, change phases, and then you'd still have cancellation. However, that front wave wouldn't hit a wall before it got to the listeners ears. So, the rear wave would change phase when it hit the wall, be in phase with the front wave, both waves (albeit at slightly different times) would reach the listeners ears in the same phase, and thus free of cacellations, no?

Then the waves can go and bounce around off the other walls and ceiling and floor and chest of drawers and what not, and dissipate and be absorbed by those things it bumps into.

Could that be right?

amulford

You are are forgetting about something. This guy is a accoustic engineer, right? Do you think he might be treating the room??? (Ohhhhhh!!!)

FWIW I think it will be overkill to the max. But I'd like to hear it.

He's also going to need subwoofers anyway. Amazings fall off sharply below 40 Hz. I'd lay money he's got a badass IB in the works...

VR3

Ok, lets say you have a front and rear direct signal. My speakers are firing into a corner, not directly - they are off center firing into a corner. Assuming a driver shot a line of frequency at that corner, that line would hit one side of the corner, then it would bounce to the other side of the corner - ok, thats TWO phase changes ALREADY... so it went OUT OF PHASE...and now its back IN PHASE. Its next point would now be on the left wall (Im talking about the right speaker) that is on the other side of the room... and then it would hit the wall on the other side of the corner...

But sound dosnt radiate that way sadly and it isnt that simple. Sound radiates in every direction...

TroyD

Sid, the cancellation occurs, on a dipole 90 degrees from the source of radiation. Which is to say, to the SIDE. Not front to rear. When an acoustic wave reflects off a surface, softer the better, the phase changes 180 degrees, which is why we damp the rear walls. This is what gives dipole radiators the spacious sound. G'head and read about it. Now, I may not be 100% correct, but I KNOW you are way off base. At any rate, I don't see how cancellation is any more inherent with a dipole. More reflections? Sure, but, space is the issue there which THEY seem to have solved.

Sid, look at the Maggie website. The onwall speakers are as big (surface wise) as pretty much any other speaker. Again. Talk, butt, that whole thing.

I'm not talking about reviews as in some lame website. I'm talking TAS and other 'reputable' hifi rags, Harry Pearson's multi-channel rig is Magnepan, for example. Jesus, I'm NOT making this stuff up.

Regardless, I didn't call you names. I said I'd slug George if he let Stephanie go near you because I think of her as a family member to be protected. I'd say that about any 16 year old bag of hormones....it was jest at your expense. If you took it the wrong way, I'm sorry. I've been calm and cool...you are over there having a tantrum.

BDT

VR3

Troy,
Anything on the wall - is 100% WAF friendly and acceptable majority of the time, so its all a moot point. Its not a talk + butt anything. Its just the fact someones wife would rather them have something on the wall than some 1.2TLs in the room doing something similar. We can argue that all day, but I dont see Maggies as a space taking up anything...

I never said they were bad. I keep understanding you think I am saying they are bad. That is NOT the case. jeeez

TroyD

We aren't talking about WAF. You were babbling about dipole reflections being inherently detrimental to multi-channel. I pointed out that it is NOT so, giving the Maggies as an example. Magnepan is decidedly NOT a speaker company that designs speakers primarily with WAF in mind. Therefore, you **** is STILL flapping in the breeze.

BDT

VR3

You are right Troy, I am wrong Troy - *bows before Troy*

Ill believe it all, when I hear it for myself.

Until then...

I learned something new today, I will be spending some time on that site I linked yall to - reading up on how sound works, the human ear - all that jazz... very interesting.

I finally learn something new on the Polk boards...and it was driven by Troy - who woulda THUNK it.

Have a nice night.

(That was sarcasm by the way)...

I appreciate you dealing with me, I know it was hard. But I enjoyed it, I doubt you did. But I did.

TroyD

In this case, I'm a LOT more right than you are.

I'd also suggest doing some reading on acoustics.

BDT

VR3

I am Troy.

Do you want me to call you God next?

I still havnt changed my mind about dipolars though. I will be doing ALOT of research on that. I shall be back.

Dun dun dun

TroyD

No, just realize that you aren't always as right as you think you are and that some of us aren't as DUMB as you think you are.

I'd also suggest that you owe me and George an apology.

BDT

VR3

I never said I was right, I just said something and you assumed I thought I was thinking I was right. Unless you correct me (and explain) - Im going to keep saying the same exact thing like a broken record.

If you dont believe me, read the past few post as my replies started to change into a different tune. You think Im trying to be a pompous jerk because Im sitting behind a keyboard typing a "content" message involving some form of "knowledge" that I picked up along the way. Now unless someone stops me and tells me any different, THAT is my knowledge. You cant just say Im wrong, smack me on the wrist and expect me to know any different.

I will apologize to you, but I dont think I owe George anything. You may think thats wrong and everyone else may to - but none of my replies pertained to George at all. I ignore George like a plague. George to me IS a plague. George dosnt like me and I dont like George. I dont remember ever doing a thing to George, I dont try to do anything to George - but regardless, if he dosnt like me - I dont have to like him, and I havnt found a reason to like him. His posts arnt amusing, his "writing style" that everyone finds so cool dosnt amuse me either. I think hes an ****$hole. And Im sure he and a host of others think I am one too.

Joey_V

Sid...

Since I cant pm you, do you mind pm-ing me about your thoughts regarding the Grande Utopias? I never heard anything better than the 918BE and those sounded very good especially at the $4K mark. What are you powering those monsters with and what is your opinion of it since it definitely is true high end? Also, if you dont mind, pm me the out the door cost for those monsters.... one day, one day... I always tell myself that.

ohskigod

might want to do a search for grand untopia on this board. I could swear Sid did a review on these, or at least talked about them not too long ago.

TroyD

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote:

Troy,
I was doing a little reading. You are right, the phase does change.

However, according to what I read, it changes *EVERYTIME* is hits a hard surface. (IE: A wall) - So, its not as simple as it hitting the wall and it now being out of phase or in phase. Dipolar or bipolar, the end result could be an out of phase signal and an in phase signal, thus causing a cancelation.

Now, getting back to the original topic - you put 7 speakers, that radiate front and back... thats 14 sound radiation patterns, now you're looking at all the reflection points between here there and yonder and you can only wonder at what is about to happen in the end... Which is my original argument, it would be a pain to setup right.

Back to our current argument, assuming everytime the waves hit the wall it changes phase - this means that the front wave could also change, this means that if they both changed - it would be moot and its really all the same. Which mean in a bipolar setup it wouldnt be any different either, thus no cancelation would occur. But in a dipolar the chances of a cancelation occuring are still just as high.

So saying it hits the wall and its an in phase signal would be off as well...

Hmmm

Okay, one last thing here Sid....remember we aren't dealing with setting up speakers in a maze.

Again, we are discussing di-poles, right?? Ok. Once the rear wave is reflected off the back wall....after THAT happens, we are for all intents and purposes dealing with the SAME issues as a monopole speaker. You dig? The one thing that planars have as an advantage is they tend to have narrower dispersion patterns (hence the tendency to 'beam' in the treble and have poorer off axis response).

Sorry gang, I forgot to post this earlier

BDT

VR3

Joey

Shoot me an email at vr3mxdmicblce2k7@gmail.com

jcaut

I just read through this whole thing. I shouldn't even comment, but I've been on here for six years or so and I have less than 2000 posts, so I deserve a frivolous one or two, right? "Polkhead" sounds a little offensive to me, after all.

The original idea, with the 7 pairs of Amazings.... Wow. What can you say to that, really? I'd really like to hear just ONE pair. So I'm not qualified to comment beyond "Wow". "Wowie Zowie" might be justified.

On the phase/reflection discussion: I'm not educated on this stuff. It seems to me that one critical element that's being largely left out of the discussion, is time: Flight time, the time the sound takes to reach your ear, after it bounces off of whatever it hits. Saying that a back wave and a front wave that leave a dipole speaker are in or out of phase with each other depends on where you are. When you also take into account different reflectivity of different surfaces at different frequencies... well it gets real complicated. Also, there are lots of other psycho-acoustic principles involved that I know little about. Reflections, and phasing issues are things that occur with every speaker, in every environment except maybe outdoors or in an anechoic chamber. It's a huge part of what we interpret as "ambience" or soundstage. Of course it's different with different types and numbers of speakers, but trying to say absolutely that one is better or worse than another just doesn't work, in my mind. It's just different. That's why it's fun.

Jason

cfrizz

George didn't direct word one towards you & you came out swinging at him. It would have been different if he had attacked you first, but he ignores you the same way you SHOULD ignore him.

You don't have to like him & no one can make you. However, George said it best: "if you have nothing good to say...

In the beginning, I did think you were a know-it-all ****$hole and put you on ignore for a while, but you have since shown a lot of maturity, until now.

You can believe what you want & post what you want, but do try to do it without attacking someone that you don't like for no reason at all except for the fact that he started a thread.

You're better than that now Sid.

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote:

I will apologize to you, but I dont think I owe George anything. You may think thats wrong and everyone else may to - but none of my replies pertained to George at all. I ignore George like a plague. George to me IS a plague. George dosnt like me and I dont like George. I dont remember ever doing a thing to George, I dont try to do anything to George - but regardless, if he dosnt like me - I dont have to like him, and I havnt found a reason to like him. His posts arnt amusing, his "writing style" that everyone finds so cool dosnt amuse me either. I think hes an ****$hole. And Im sure he and a host of others think I am one too.

VR3

Im not attacking George, Im stating my opinion of George. The exact same way George has displayed his opinion of me in many other threads. The difference is, the ground I walk on isnt worshiped by everyone on this forum. And I dont want it to be.

I dont like George, and nothing in this thread I posted unless it said George, - was not torwards George. The only reason I even said what I said about George is because Troy said I owe him an apology. Thats BS. ever since I joined this forum and George came trumpeting back with his condescending "I know best, you know nothing, my opinion is more important than yours" attitude, he hasn't liked me and I dont know why. I dont care why, he dosn't talk to me - the purpose of me in this thread has nothing to do with George or the relationship between me and George.

I was just throwing a hook line sinker debate. I was wrong about it, so what - now I get to read up on something to learn about it, thats why Im here. To learn, I may look like a jerk off in the process but I dont care. Im not here to impress you or anyone else. Im here to learn and talk about audio and everything related to audio.

I spent the first few years here trying to "impress people" and for "people to like me" - but it dosnt matter, I can link you to threads where I was verbally beaten to a pulp - and by the people that is looked up to on this forum. All because they couldnt control theirself to the point of correcting me in a calm manner. Therefore, when I want to know something - I start a flame war of sorts, not nessicarially a flame war, but Ill throw something out there, they'll throw up the BS flag - and it may take 20 posts, but Ill eventually get some info out of it because to alot of these "vets" on here think Im not worth their time.

But I know how to make me worth their time, they have to prove to me they are right and they'll eventually explain why.

I'm DONE in this thread, anything else you want to say - positive, negative, neutral, w/e - vr3mxdmicblce2k7@gmail.com

And if you think I deserve your ignore list, I will not lose ANY sleep, I promise.

ohskigod

while I think Sid came out of left field from jump street on this particular thread. I've seen the kid take some lumps. some very deserved, and some not deserved.


my worthless piece of **** .02

ohskigod

oh, for the record, I would love to put ears on that set up of carvers. phase Schmase....blah blah is all I hear, utterly clueless. which is bad I guess since I own a pair and allways have trouble getting them to sound just right...LOL

TroyD

Agreed, re Sid, Lou.

Basically a good kid with a healthy dose of the know-it-all gene. He'll be ok.

For the record Sid, When you get to be 50+ years old and have gone through HALF of some of the stuff George has, you'll probably believe that your opinion carries a bit more weight than that of a 16 year old.

I'd also like to say that I remember a good many of those threads, Sid. Some you didn't deserve. Many, you did deserve precisely for what you are doing here, an incredible lack of humility. That comes with age, I guess.

At 35, I know about, oh, 10% of what I THOUGHT I knew at 16.

BDT

TroyD

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote:

I am Troy.

Do you want me to call you God next?

I still havnt changed my mind about dipolars though. I will be doing ALOT of research on that. I shall be back.

Dun dun dun

See, THIS is the kind of **** that makes people want to strangle you, Sid. It's not a matter of me being proud of being right. I wasn't being sarcastic to you....like I'm supposed to feel bad or sheepish about you being full of crap?

BDT

RuSsMaN

I've had better conversations with my shoe.

reeltrouble1

he hasn't liked me and I dont know why.

Perceptions, its the little things that speak volumes.

RT1

VR3

Eh...

Im back, I lied.

You guys dont get it. I have NO REASON to show humility to you people. And Im not about to sit here and whine, alot of the BS I went on here when I was younger shaped me into what I am now. Im not the same person in person as I present on this forum. Because I dont care. Im beyond caring how I am perceived by YOU (RT1), YOU (Troy), YOU (Russ), YOU (George), YOU (Insert your name here). I just DONT care.

Perhaps you will convince Justin to BAN me, I will even ask him to. I visit this forum out of freaking habit. Disabling me from posting would be more help than good.

You think just because you guys are older than me that you deserve my respect? Wrong. You dont deserve my respect because Ive NEVER gotten yours and I didnt even ask for it.

As for me deserving a verbal beat down because I said something really stupid? Hello you numb skulls I was freaking 13 years old. Yeah, I probally shouldnt of even been on this forum, but what do you expect to happen when you get a 13 year old who posts absolutely random things in a forum full of 25-35 year old dudes? Exactly what happened then. The only difference is you "mature, humilitized old men" couldnt keep YOUR cool.

If you like me, thats great, I dont have a problem with people on this forum - I dont lose sleep at night because of something said on here, Im not worried about the replies. Like I said, if you want me banned, do it. If you dont want me here - get rid of me. Its all simple, like I said - Im here because its a habit, and old habits are hard to break.

You think Im a know it all 17 year old punk, thats fine. Anybody that knows me in person, off the net will tell you otherwise.

Perceptions are everything, Im not stupid - you guys took a weak 13 old boy and beat him into an aggrivated 17 year old know it all post **** - I dont take your crap and you dont take mine. The only difference now and then is I can compose myself more clearly and to the point where you cant get to me. Because I actually cared then, I dont care now.

You dont want me here, GET RID OF ME. But stop saying you know who I am because I post on this forum. You dont even want to know how I perceive you - I bet its way off. Or maybe its not.

jdhdiggs

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote:

We can argue that all day, but I dont see Maggies as a space taking up anything...

Sorry Sid, this comment and the bass comment are wrong. You think the maggies have a higher WAF than say the LSI's? Well, you should talk to my wife and she will disagree with you.

Bass? Let me go move the carver back on the 3.3's and I'll have far more bass than my SDA's had. As much bass as I heard on the SDA-SRS 2's. Mags aren't known for their bass for two reasons:
1). No one sets them up for crap or with a decent amp.
2). Most people only deal with the mmg's which is sort of like saying that since an RTi4 doesn't have much bass, the 1.2TL shouldn't either.

As for cancellations, its a function of reflection surfaces and frequency. Moving the mags in and out form the walls I can change the bass response, just like a sub or SDA's... What does that tell you? Di-pole can actually re-enforce bass frequencies dependent on the gap to the back wall. (think a half wavelength)

Here's a little prob-stats for you- The plan these guys have should have very minimal, if not flat response... Want to know why? Here you go: With that many drivers / surface area radiating sound, cancellations and sympathectic re-enforcments will be so numerous that the sound will tend to revert to the mean... In the case of speakers: the intended sound.

Hope that helps you out.

Sid: Chill, breathe...

VR3

BAN ME PLEASE

Thank you.

george daniel

Serenity Now

ohskigod

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote:

Eh...

Because I dont care. Im beyond caring how I am perceived by YOU (RT1), YOU (Troy), YOU (Russ), YOU (George), YOU (Insert your name here). I just DONT care.

if this were true, you would have walked from the thread 2 pages ago. really not tryin to bust your balls here (hope you dont take it that way), just giving your subconscious a voice. The opposite seems to be true, you care TOO MUCH what they think.
honestly...take it easy dude, take that truck for a spin (slowly )