In Magnolia today

sterling bug

Stopped by Magnolia today on my way home from work to pick up some Auidoquest component cables. Talked to one of the employees there for a while and had him demo me some Definitive Tehnology speakers. They were the BP 7004 supertowers, CLR 2002 center, and I believe the BPX surrounds powered by a Denon 3806. Playing was the fight scene between Kenobi and Grievous from ROTS. This is the first time I've heard Def Tech and I was really impressed by the sound. Very pricey too, $1600 for the pair. I plan on upgrading this year and actually thought about Def Tech. But I like what I hear from Polk and their customer service and will probably stick with my plan: Rti 10 or 8, CSi 5, FXi 5, and SVS PB10. Nice layout at Magnolia too.

ohskigod

Magnolia's are inside Best Buy store's here, is that the kind you visited?

sterling bug

Yes ohskigod it was in a Best Buy. It seems most of the Best Buys out in my area have them or will be getting them.

gregure

Had to be in Best Buy, there are no stand alone Magnolia stores west of CA, WA and OR. As for Def Tech, they're decent for movies, but, as you said, fairly pricey, and you can do so much better for music performance. The Rti line you're looking at is almost an exact replica of mine, but I just recently uprgraded from the PB 10 to the Martin Logan Depth, also available at Magnolia. Honestly, though, if you were to spend that kind of money, the Polk LSi line is much nicer, and a much better performer for music. Def Tech always struck me as rather bright for music, plus the whole bi-polar thing totally screws up two-channel imaging, and becomes way too muddy if you have a fair amount of reflective surfaces in the room. Do yourself a favor and, when buying your Rti system, sink that extra money into a better receiver, or separates. That will make a much bigger difference than slightly better speakers, and give you the room to upgrade speakers years down the line.

sterling bug

gregure, are you saying my receiver I have now will not do justice to the RTi line? Just curious because I just upgraded to that receiver last year. I like what I hear about the RTi line because they are very good for movies which is what I'm concerned about. As for the LSi line, I would love to have them but I feel they are out of my price range. Have to factor in my wife and I are looking to move into a bigger house this year and I am still paying off my eyeballs being zapped last summer. If I had a choice and money not being an option then LSi all the way for sure.

Early B.

Your Denon is fine. Gregure is just saying that Rti10's (and most other speakers) will sound even better with separate amplification.

halo

sterling - My HT set up is similar tou yours (R15's - FR,FL,SR,SL, w/ CSi20) but I recently upgraded to a SVS 20-39 PCi Sub. IMO there isn't going to be a noticeable enough difference between the R-series and the RTi's to justify the cost. Try adding a better sub and I think you'll be happy - I know I am!

SVS

HSU

OUTLAW

Golf Mill Best Buy / Magnolia right? Been there, done that

sterling bug

Would I be better off staying with what I have speaker wise and add separates instead? What about separates and the SVS PB10-ISD? Its not set in stone that I will get the RTi's just something I was considering. If separates would be the better option then I would definitely consider it. I personally don't have any experience with separates. Thanks for the input fellas, appreciate it.

halo

You could get a separate 2 channel amp to power the R50's or a 3 channel amp for the mains & center channel. The Denon can handle the surrounds or the surrounds and the center. Clean power always sounds better IMO.

Give Ron S. a call at SVS and see which sub he thinks would be best for your room.

VR3

Wow, I don't even know where to start.

Well wait, yes I do.

Ok...

1) The 7000 series is a joke. There is no need for them, period. They use great midbass and high end drivers - but the subs suck... bleh. They are really pricey.

2) Bipolar speakers are not muddy. Direct Radiating speakers are muddy. Infact, they are boring... and they dont add life to the music at all...

3) Def Techs are not bright, they are extremely detailed, to some this may be bright - but its so much better than that "laid back" sound of Polk's stuff, which is brighter than DT (in my room anyways).

4) You cant Demo Def Tech in a store. Period. And anyone who discredits them as a musical speaker from an in-store demo needs to get their opinion checked at the door. It is so hard to get a demo, wall placement and things around them are SO crucial in how it images...

5) Def Tech's passive BP line can be found extremely cheap on the bay since its been on the market so long and it will blow the RTi line out of the water.

6) Def Techs love power, they sound horrible without it... and the more you give them, the better they get.

Disclaimer. I dont like DR speakers, at all. I havnt heard ONE I would keep and boot mine out. I think they are BORING and take away the feel of the music that I feel Bipolar speakers capture. Since 75% of the sound we hear is reflected sound, and based on the fact that that reflected sound gives the instrument/person musicality - I dont see how you could listen to it any other way. Only 25% of the sound we hear is direct, and thats for location...

Not to mention bipolar speakers dont have the ineffeciencies of direct radiating speakers, since they fire both directions in-phase - so not only do you get bass response outside of this world, but you get an overall more balanced presentation.

Is my response defensive? Yes! Why? Because Im so SICK AND TIRED of people dissing a brand they've NEVER heard setup right, powered right, and outside of a store. Its SO annoying. You CANT NOT recomend a brand based on something in the corner of a Best Buy in a small lil room when the entire design is BASED ON THINGS AROUND IT.

My recomendation, take them home for a day - listen to them on your setup, play with them, get them OUT OF THE STORE. Once you get them setup and properly amped/etc --- you will find it very hard to go back to DR speakers.

But it is definitely a love hate thing.

*Puts on my flame retardant suit*

Anyone in the Charlotte, NC area - stop on by.

halo

Take a deep breath Trey. :rolleyes:

mantis

Well I have heard Def Tech properly setup and I think they suck ****.

What do you have to say about that?

Dan

ohskigod

maybe that explains why I never really liked Def Tech, I only heard them in a store.
the ones I listenned to hard (for the life of me cant remember the model #, but they were towers, pretty tall too, I wanna say 3 ft plus. this was about 4 years ago, powerred by one of the bigger Rotel amps. In its own room for set up playing music. did it sound good, yeah. did it make me go gaga, no. espescially at the price. I remember these being closer to 2G. I wasnt as knowlegable back then, so maybe my opinion would change. but I feel confident in saying that I would probably like the LSi line much better, despite being horrendously direct radiating

VR3

Dan...

You have your head stuck so far up Dynaudio's butt you couldnt see the light of the sun if it was a speaker brand. So your opinion is null... atleast in my eyes.

Def Techs sound is love or hate... the BP passive line can not compare to the LSi line - but the RTi line, I find it to be far better in clarity and detail.

Get them out of the store.

And Dan - did you set them up? lol - because this is from the same guy that said SVS was a one note wonder...

VR3

Just to add...

If you are building a HT setup - while Def Tech is great for music... they will knock the socks off of most speakers when it comes to HT mainly based on their design alone, they are built around a very wide and deep stage... --- and they are placement based to where you can set them up for nothing but HT where the mains have no center stage and the center picks up the center stage right where the mains leave off. This allows the mains to project a HUGE, wide front stage that extends to the end of the room - but it requires a wall within a few feet of them in the room to pull it off...

But its a fun experiment... it sounds horrible with music because instead of toeing your mains in - your toeing them out.

See if the dudes at Magnolia will let you do an inhome demo, then pick up a pair of RTi for a demo - return the one you think is not quite as good.

gregure

Oh, I don't even know where to begin...
First of all, I very much acknowledge that my taste for direct radiating speakers is an opinion, as is my distaste for all metal tweeters. However, I cannot help but feel that Mr. Bipolar's comments were somewhat directed at me, and I would at least like to say that I have heard Def Tech in what I would consider to be properly setup conditions, with excellent gear running them, and still don't think they can hold a candle to most other speakers, especially for music. Are they better than the Rti line? In my opinion, maybe. But they don't even come close to the detail and smoothness of something like Vienna Acoustics or Sonus Faber, and I would take the Polk Lsi speakers over Def Tech any day. That said, it's all obviously a matter of opinion.
Back to Sterling's concerns:
I think the Rti line would be an excellent choice in speaker, especially if your main concern is home theater. I don't really see the point in wasting money on an ugly, black cloth monolith with boomy self-amplified subs, which could easily be outperformed by one good stand-alone sub.
Furthermore, my comment about the Denon receiver is from long experience working around them, and I just don't think they cut it for music performance, although movie performance would be decent. Music really opens up and comes alive with better amperage, on any speaker, but the Rti really deserve it. After experiencing the difference between Onkyo run-of-the-mill and B&K, I'm always a proponent of going bigger and better on the pre/pro and amp. Personally, I think separates would be wasted on the R series. The Rti's are much better speakers, and you would have a tremendous system were you to upgrade to Rti and a nice big receiver, or perhaps Outlaw separates. You could probably do the whole thing for $5-6k. C'mon-you can't work that into your house payments?

ninerbj

trey 1
mantis 0

VR3

"n my opinion, maybe. But they don't even come close to the detail and smoothness of something like Vienna Acoustics or Sonus Faber"

And...who said they did? lol

I can see the point in wasting your money on similiarly priced black clothed mono-lithed speakers with a quasi transmission line design that dosnt use subs at all.

BP6B (new) 600 dollars. Used: 250 Shipped

BP8B (new) 800 Dollars. Used: 300-350 shipped

BP10B (new) 1000 Dollars. Used: 450-500 shipped.

BP30 (discon.) (new) 1,400 dollars. Used: 650-700 Shipped.

The BP10B and BP30 are great speakers for music reproduction.

All of them has been on the market since 1996 and for a reason.

keith allen

A friend of mine just picked up a pair of the $1600 Def Tech,I will get a chance to hear them this weekend,they seem a little $$$,I tried to talk him into some rti8's.I think that is one of the best all around speakers for the money,being bias as I own them,but I have tried to sell them a couple times and just cant,gotta spend a good bit more money to get something better.Anyway my buddy got his Tuesday,so I'll check em out and give ya an opinion on how they play music,Im just not an HT guy.

mantis

Vr3MxStyler2k3 wrote:

Dan...

You have your head stuck so far up Dynaudio's butt you couldnt see the light of the sun if it was a speaker brand. So your opinion is null... atleast in my eyes.

Def Techs sound is love or hate... the BP passive line can not compare to the LSi line - but the RTi line, I find it to be far better in clarity and detail.

Get them out of the store.

And Dan - did you set them up? lol - because this is from the same guy that said SVS was a one note wonder...

First off I was only messing around with you due to your outlandis reply to this thead.And to answer your questions...

My head is not stuck up my **** with Dynaudio. I just so happen to favor there sound. You may not like em and thats completely fine. I can give that respect can you?

My opnion counts like anyone elses. Just because my head isn't stuck up Def Techs **** like yours means nothing. Dude some people don't like em and thats ok. If you like em great man.

Yes I set them up, Remember Liv4fam? He owned them and a few of my customers own them and like em. I have set up the BP2004p's I believe that was the model number along with the powered center with the 10 inch driver facing up, the rears both on wall and inwall passive design.

For music I don't like them . they are very close to the Rt line as far as overall sound quality. You are correct, they can't compete with the Lsi line. But for home theater I felt they where pretty good. The center was hurting just a bit due to a harsh tweeter. I don't like the way it responds.

As far as SVS goes, I set up 2 different subs from them in my customers homes. One was the huge box design with the 3 ports in the back where they give you a port plug to tune the sub and the other was a tower tube design which I felt sounded even worse then the box design. Again My opnion matter due to the fact I have setup more systems then most people on this forum combined. Remember young one, I'm in the field everyday doing this for a living pal.

But even said all that, I like what I like you like what you like and everyone likes what they like. It doesn't matter I'm a Professional and your a happy Joe Hobbyist. Your opnion is just as valid as mine or the next guy. Believe it or not it's all a matter of personal taste.I just so happen to have more experience then most people including you.

Def Tech speakers are not for me ok. Not many people like em. Some love em. Who really cares.

Dan

VR3

Dan...

My reply to you is just for you, if anyone else had said that - the reply wouldnt have been as harsh. Because your replies annoy me due to their flavor of the week feel to them. Its annoying as everything. Although I can say Dynaudio has been a constant for you, atleast.

My head is far from stuck up DTs tail, Im as passionate about DT as I was/am about Polk. Whatever brand I own, is the brand Im going to KNOW everything about and push when people ask. Thats just the way it is. I have let 10-15 people audition my setup and everyone has left here with a respect for DT and SVS.

If Onix Rocket, Polk, Infinity, etc can come in here and beat my speakers - I will GLADLY buy them as a replacement. But the fact is, Polk and B&W has both been in here and they've both left.

Def Tech cant make a subwoofer - Polk makes a better subwoofer than Def Tech can. Def Tech makes freaking boom boxes... and why am I saying this? I say this because their powered towers suck the big ones, and theres not much more you can say about it.

You know how long it has taken me to fully tweak my DTs to their potential.. a year! And its not because Im some "n00b" but because they are that hard to place in a room, ANY ROOM. To say you went in a room, for a day a week, whatever and listened to countless hours of material and tweaked the living hell out of them till they were perfect is crazy. You might be thinking a good pair of speakers shouldnt need that kind of attention, but I think they do, good sound requires patience. You know this, I know this. And Def Tech requires ALOT of patience.

You say you've heard a set up that was properly placed and powered. I say your wrong. Ok? Why do I say your wrong? Because Ive heard alot of Def Tech setups all placed "good" and powered with good equipment and Im here to tell you they all fail miserably to mine. And its not because mine is better, its because I broke my back to get them to where they are and Im constantly altering them.

The powered line sucks, period. The subs in them suck.

The passive line is by far my favorite.

The only reason Im defensive about this is because I hear it to much, way to much --- people dissing brands because they think they heard them in a good enviorment or because they set them up for a day in someones house. Hogwash...

As for doing this for a living, I've met alot of people that do things for a living, just because a guy a guy working at a hi end shop down the road thats all in a band on the weekends dosnt qualify him to know good sound. And Im not saying you dont, dont even take it that way - but doing things for a living dosnt mean to much, especially in this day and age. Heck, most contractors in a framing crew havnt even shot a nail gun before, but they still know how to build a building in their head.

While Polk is a great brand but I dont find them to be even close as far as clarity and detail to the Passive line (RTi) and far far away from the 7000 series. I find the 7000 series to be a waste of cash, plain and simple. They are not that good, the LSi series blows them away for half the price.

But, the Passive line, used - is a stellar deal. New? Id go elsewhere.

mantis

Sid,
Thats much better. I can talk to you about this in this tone. but leave this flavor at the door. If you don't like the way I post , then please don't read them. I'm exposed to alot of gear all the time and constantly find things I like and dislike. If you want to call it flavor of the week month or what have you , so be it.... Flavor.I like changing out my system. I still hold B&K and Lsi high on my list as well as Transparent. Nothing wrong with any of those products it's just I found more to my liking with what I own now. One day I could grow out of Dynaudio but right now I still love em the same the day I first heard them to just a few minutes ago while listening to a video game.

Like most people I'm constantly learning about gear wire , etc, as you.

As far as the Def tech thing goes dude, like I said it's all personal. I can tell in a few minutes if I like a speaker, system, or whatever is being tested. If there is something there, I work with it, if it's not , I leave it at that.There subs many really like that forced boom they make. You may not I may not but dude get past the fact that people talk trash about them. Once you can be cool with that then you will not have to defend them anymore. Let people bash em, in your eyes they are missing out what you have found in them. I could be missing out the same thing but I choose not to like them due to MY personal experiences with them.The sub isn't what I disliked, it was the tweeter response. Way to bright and forward for me. I like a smooth natural sounding tweeter like the Lsi has.Like My Dyn's do.

Let it rest man, I don't want to argue with you about Def Tech. Go like em, dig your system and really dude thats exactly what counts. Not my opnion, not anyone elses.Just yours.

Dan

VR3

I prefer brighter speakers --- just not sibilant ones... I find laid back to be slightly boring and uninvolving...

B&K has earned my respect... although I cant say Id own them if I didnt get a deal... hmmm

I think we can say we're done here...

mantis

Cool man Peace

beardog03

I love you guy`s...!

okay, really like alot...

sterling bug

Thanks for the reply gregure. I don't have a timetable to upgrade but I'm leaning towards the RTi's. I have the upgrade bug so it may be sooner than later. Appreciate the knowledge.

gregure

No problem, man. Amidst all the pissing around here, you sometimes find some decent, relatively unbiased advice.

gregure

And one more thing: you may have found that your current setup with Def Tech is to your liking above any you've heard, and that's great, but it still doesn't change the fact that there are a lot of speakers out there for less or slightly more that would sound twice as good after 5 minutes of setup than the Def Tech's do after a year of tweaking.

VR3

That may be the case...but I sure havnt heard them...yet.

I know what Im looking for in sound, and it just so happens what Im looking for involves bipolar technology - they sound so different from DR speakers, and the only way to get that sound is from bipolar speakers.

Ive listened to WAY more expensive speakers than these ($89,000 more to be exact) and I still dont have the desire to upgrade. Its not because mine are better, its because the ones Ive listened to cant re-create the sound field I have come accustomed to from a bipolar set.

If you're trying to reach audio nirvana in this hobby, you're going to fail. I can find flaws in a pair of 90,000 dollar pair of speakers. I can find them in a 1,000 dollar pair of speakers. The only difference, the 90,000 has alot less...

But the fact remains, they BOTH cant recreate any instrument or vocal to its absolute true form.

This is how I have found a bipolar speaker to stage... this is just the front stage, it has the back of the room depth when the songs call for it as well.

But it usually has that standard layout with the guitars on the side, vocals forwards, drums in the back --- sometimes they will be closer, sometimes they will have two guitars in the same channel where one is more inner and one is more outter in the channe l - sometimes they'll have one behind the other...

I really like the airy, deep sound bipolar speakers make.

That big oval in the back is what I found to happen when full scale orchastras were played, unless they were specific instruments were being played, it pushed them all to layers from front to back...really cool.