JL 500/5 amp

MacLeod

HiPerf360 wrote:

WTF? How is one amp more musical than another?

I am talking about the sound of the amp, i think the old PP sounded better than the JL.

Go tho the 2ch forum and ask that same stupid question.

Stick your attitude up your ****!!

One amp being more musical than another is the stupidest thing Ive ever heard!! One amp could be louder than another or have more distortion but using "musical" to describe an amp is like using "powerful" to describe a tire.

HiPerf360

I didn't come with the attitude.

You called me out for no reason.

I was not bashing any one, or any ones products.
I simply was stating my opinion.

Please notice how i used the word "musical".

The JL amps drive the speakers like there is no tomorrow, they just seem to lack the finesse that the PP had. That is all i meant.

And for the record, i plan on getting two more JL amps for my boat system, the same ones i have in my truck. 300/4 and 500/1

Jonathon

PoweredByDodge

there is no such thing as "finesse" -- realize that and u'll be one step out of the "i am a lemming" hole.

i think i'm going to take a break from the boards... people are making me angry in general --- i'm gonna have a couple hundred beers and be back in a few days - until then, Mac hold down the fort for me... Cody, keep ripping on lemmings... and where the hell is John when you need him!

HiPerf360

Oh i see...

All amps with a given power sound the same.

Do all speakers and head units sound the same to?

exalted512

HiPerf360 wrote:

Oh i see...

All amps with a given power sound the same.

yup. If you say different theres a 10k dollar prize waiting for you in dick clark's challenge
-Cody

neomagus00

all SS amps sound the same within their operating limits because their FRs are all the same to the sixth decimal place... the key here is within operating limits... some sound better when pushed to the very edge...

and tube amps have built-in distortion that some find pleasing, and they also tend to clip more smoothly... these two qualities lend it a sound that can be described as 'warm'... the same sound can be reproduced on an SS amp using a carefully designed set of filters that distort the sound in just the right way...

head units, same thing, except some HUs have less reliable or crappier components, and there can be an audible difference there, for the same reasons as above...

speakers, as we all know, can be made with different materials, with different motor technologies, and so on and so forth... the nonlinearities and distortions introduced by these various choices determine the sound of the speaker... their characteristic FR has much larger variances than amplifiers, and these variances are clearly audible...

audiobliss

Another age old argument. :rolleyes:

I'm with you, HiPerf360.

hrdhtdvr

PoweredByDodge wrote:

Regulated power supply...

---

Lends the same supply voltage to the output stage from a range of (for example) 11 volts through 16 volts)

The benefit is not that of "preventing losses in power and clips due to momentary dips in power supply voltage". Horse ****. Provided onboard capacitance is within a reasonable spec, these momentary dips don't become an issue until you start getting into huge amps. At which time, a beefed up electrical system and properly used external caps are necessary.

The real benefit is that they can more tightly control their piece of **** amplifier. There are less variables. They know, no matter what, that the supply voltage to the output stage is "X". No matter what. Heaven forbid a fly get into JL's proverbial anal ointment.

Regulated Output Stage

---

Regardless of the load put to the output terminals, the same power will be output... at 8 ohm, 4 ohms, 2 ohms, 1 ohm or half an ohm, it's all the same... within a limit of course, usually something like "between 1 and 6 ohms" or something of that nature.

Again, all this does is remove a variable. Yes it will, I suppose, protect you in the event that you have a driver that is a little below specified impedance, or whatever... but give me a break... its stupid... it's a waste of time, money, and parts to build this **** into amplifiers. All it does is clutter up the board, add more parts that generate heat, and add more parts to break -- increasing the customer end cost.

Fully Regulated amps

---

use both types of regulation above. and are thus stupid as hell.


Musical amps...

---

One amp is not more musical than another. The only exception would be an amplifier with a limited bandwidth - for example, an amp that had a frequency response of 50 hertz to 15 k Hz, while another had a response of 20 to 20k ... and another had a response of 5 Hz to 30k Hz... the last would be the most "musical" ... but, considering 99.99999% of audio amplifiers have a range of 20 to 20k ... no one amp is more musical than another, and any home audio fuckstick who would like to say that there is such a thing can eat **** and die.

A properly designed amplifier will have a washboard flat transient response. Want to argue that, fine, go down the road to "I'm too **** retarded to do anything but make up science and pick my asscrack with toothpicks" Bar and Grille, and ask them about it.

Warm amps versus "flat" amps

---

Tube amps have what is known as a "warm" or "wet" sound. We can use those terms to describe other amps, but when someone says "tube amps sound better, they're wetter and warmer" -- they're not being stupid... they are using a slang term for the fact that tube amps, while being virtually dead on balls accurate, have some minor tonal coloration... basically... they add a distinct, predictable, and common distortion (distorion being ANY sound not found on the original recording) to the reproduced sound. So you could say tube amps are more "musical"...

Solid state amps are flat... which mathematically is awesome, and in theory, is perfect for listening as well... class AB hybrid is going to sound different from any other AB hybrid -- this assumes all bass boosts are off, deck is set at 0, everything is zeroed out... gain is set at a point below where clipping occurs. volume may be different ... sound won't be though.

if it is then you have a magical amp from the planet "i'm a ****".


Closing

---

in closing, ARC Audio ROCKS! JL is a piece of **** company run by fucksticks and losers.

OUCH!!!!! I say to each his own. Personally I like the JL that I have, and I am the only one who has to be happy with it. ( I did not take your post as a attack!)

Red230SX

Tube amps are more pleasing due to the amount of even order harmonic distorsion they
produce when at or near clipping. They (manufacturers and others) have done tests and
found that Human ears for whatever the reason, are less fatigued by the even order
distrorsion where as Solid State are dead nuts on but when close to clipped produce
odd order distorsion which is supposedly more fatiguing to our ears.

I know that my tube amps most certainly sound "different" than my solid state and yes
they do sound more pleasing when listening to redbooks and they do clip a lot more
gently.

But to be honest.... I like both types of amps equally.. Tubes just look cooler...

PoweredByDodge

Red230SX wrote:

Tube amps are more pleasing due to the amount of even order harmonic distorsion they
produce when at or near clipping. They (manufacturers and others) have done tests and
found that Human ears for whatever the reason, are less fatigued by the even order
distrorsion where as Solid State are dead nuts on but when close to clipped produce
odd order distorsion which is supposedly more fatiguing to our ears.

I know that my tube amps most certainly sound "different" than my solid state and yes
they do sound more pleasing when listening to redbooks and they do clip a lot more
gently.

But to be honest.... I like both types of amps equally.. Tubes just look cooler...

Ding, ding ding...

You sir, are 100% correct.

Somebody's been doing his homework - I like that.

Toxis

wow PBD, that last line was... worthless. Just because you don't like a company (especially one who makes a quality product) doesn't mean they're "a piece of **** company run by fucksticks and losers." That's a bit harsh. Now if you put Audiobahn, Pyramid, Legacy, Visonik or many other companies name in the front of it, you might be a little more on track but honestly, JL is a quality product whether you like them or not. I guarantee if you ever worked in the industry, you would notice that they are a very good product that has very few problems, much less than any others out there. I've been selling mobile for over 7 years now and I have yet to find a company who has less problems... even my beloved Polk.

bknauss

MacLeod wrote:

Stick your attitude up your ****!!

One amp being more musical than another is the stupidest thing Ive ever heard!! One amp could be louder than another or have more distortion but using "musical" to describe an amp is like using "powerful" to describe a tire.

Uh... amps do sound very different, and "musical" is one adjective that could be used to describe which one sounds better. Its not all about which amp has more power. That would, in theory, only make one amp more dynamic than another.

bknauss

exalted512 wrote:

yup. If you say different theres a 10k dollar prize waiting for you in dick clark's challenge
-Cody

Oh jeez, you lost the entire meaning of that challenge. Please read the rules again. In summary, if you make two amps equal in power at all frequencies, Richard Clark is betting all that money that you can't tell the difference between those amps by listening alone. He's repeated several times that amps do sound different, but he's trying to prove that having equally flat frequency responses and the same power output will make any amps sound the same.

PoweredByDodge

This is why I wanted a vacation... I hate myself for being suckered...

Ahem...

JL sucks.

Here is why.

For the most part, the W series woofers are as sloppy as "Volfenhagen" or however you spell that.

((Note, the W6 is a given exception. Quite a nice little piece of audio goodness. Very responsive, and not at all sloppy in my opinion.))

The W7 - they're crown jewel, is a piece of ****. When they first hit stores, the 13.5 W7 was nearly a grand if not more at some shops -- our local Daryll's car audio had it pegged at 1,100 bucks. A complete joke considering the following.

Both SoundStream's Davinci and Image Dynamics IDmax 12" 1000+ watt subwoofers were in the 400 to 500 dollar retail range, posted transient responses much flatter, and overall more accurate than the W7, and could handle well over their rated RMS power. The W7, while marketed and purchased as an SQ woofer, is, in my opinion, far from one. It's a boomer, yes, it gets quite loud, but it doesn't do it with the grace and accuracy of other woofers.

I've said it before, I'll say it again - were the 13.5 W7 a 400 - 500 dollar retail woofer, I wouldn't be yelling like this. I'd say "eh, the [insert other woofer] is better, but the W7 isn't bad at all"...

However there is a distinct "dollar to product" mark that has to be met. When you're charging THAT MUCH for a driver, it better be dead on balls accurate. It's not. And that bothers me, a lot.

First run "slash amps" (500/1 1000/1) would not reach their rated output power with any given input power rail. That was a bit disgusting, again considering the cost.

JL dumps so much money into "toys" -- addons that are unnecessary to their product (ie the regulation discussed above) thus jacking up the cost... were they to put the same effort into simply beefing up and refining their basic product, they could charge less and create a "here to work, not play" image that I could and would respect.

The W6 is the only thing that I believe they've done right in a while, even though I hear the motor structure is based on the W7... although that's not a bad thing... because, as I said, the W7 isn't bad... if you take it out of its price category that is.

JL speakers/components... eh... they're average. They're not bad... they're not great... they kind of sound like Kicker's stuff. A little too peaky for me, but not bad... price tag is ridiculous though.

Hence, fucksticks.

Look at Polk -- you've got the 800 dollar SR set, but everybody who has used them is sitting there saying "I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS WAS ONLY 800 BUCKS!" It's an investment, but they feel it's worth it -- I'd feel so too. I can respect a company that makes something for everyone -- you can get a set of polk dB coaxials for around 60 bucks on sale... that's cool. they sound decent, better than their price tag. The amps aren't overengineering pieces of **** either --- they were specifically built for the second gen momo speakers. Hey... cool! they have toys that are useful... not intrusive and pointless. They're a teeeeeeeeeny bit pricier than some other amps in the same "grade" range, but its because of toys that are USEFUL. So that's cool. Do I own any? no... I prefer MTX amplifiers... but I don't think to date that I've ever knocked a polk amp, and I do highly reccomend them.

*whew*...

And don't go putting Audiobahn in the same league as Pyle and Legacy. My truck is an Audiobahn SQ comp vehicle. And before you go blowing a gasket over it, rest assured, I used to hate Audiobahn with every fibre of my being... I would knock them at any opportunity, and in a way I suppose I still should... because I had to gut two separate speaker systems, build my own handmade and self designed 24db/octave crossover network, and then frankenstein them together. In order to get a flat sounding woofer, I've had to run ISO-clamshells. But it works... it's the finest sounding audio system I've ever owned... and it blows people away on a daily basis. I've got 4,000 watts rms of MTX Blue Thunder power at my disposal, and I use it. You want to hear "warm and wet" - get in my truck.

HiPerf360

It is nice of you to assume that everyone that comes here knows nothing until they make a few thousand posts.

Opinions are just that, opinions. You have yours and I have mine, I can respect that.

If you think JL is overpriced junk then don’t buy it, don’t go running your mouth that it is junk.

HiPerf360

....

neomagus00

pbd - you spelled it 'fibre'

PoweredByDodge

i thought it was fibre?

i'm probably wrong, but i thought "fiber" was the stuff that makes you ****... and "fibre" was sinews and little threads things are made of.

1996blackmax

PoweredByDodge wrote:

I've got 4,000 watts rms of MTX Blue Thunder power at my disposal, and I use it. You want to hear "warm and wet" - get in my truck.

You would be way over the limit in St. Louis :eek: .

MacLeod

bknauss wrote:

Uh... amps do sound very different, and "musical" is one adjective that could be used to describe which one sounds better. Its not all about which amp has more power. That would, in theory, only make one amp more dynamic than another.

Not to call you out Brian cause youre about 1000 times more knowledgable than I am and could easily shred me to pieces on it but yeah, I guess you could use the term "musical" in describing an amp, you could also use "killer", "kick ****", "the shiznit" or "bangin" and all would be eqaually as worthless as "musical". Amps arent musical or bright or warm or have deep stages or tighter midbass. One amp can however be more powerful than another or cleaner than another. I suppose you could make an argument that an amp with better crossovers or more flexible bass boost circuitry could be more "musical" but then we're not talking about the amp anymore but rather its EQ's.

bknauss wrote:

Oh jeez, you lost the entire meaning of that challenge. Please read the rules again. In summary, if you make two amps equal in power at all frequencies, Richard Clark is betting all that money that you can't tell the difference between those amps by listening alone. He's repeated several times that amps do sound different, but he's trying to prove that having equally flat frequency responses and the same power output will make any amps sound the same.

To expand a bit, RC has said amps sound different but its more an element of power or because of a particular amps crossovers or bass boost features. There wont be a tonal difference.

audiobliss

MacLeod wrote:

There wont be a tonal difference.

Just like with the cables debate, you'll never win with that one, either.

MacLeod

I know. You can have all the scientific ABX tests and proof you can get and some people just refuse to let go.

HiPerf360

That is because all amps with a given power rating use the same trasistors, capacitors, resistors etc. and we all know these have no effect on sound quality.

The 120w per channel reciever in my bedroom sounds the same as the 120w seperate amp im my living room.... not even close. And they were made by the same company.

1996blackmax

MacLeod wrote:

Amps arent musical or bright or warm or have deep stages or tighter midbass. .

As far as the stage thing. I have two issues of Car Audio and Electronics where they took four amps and compared them. On one issue they did all of the testing and measuring, on the next issued they did the objective listening. One amp was a tube amp, another a full range class D, and the others I believe were A/B. There were four pretty experienced guys lending their ears if I remember correctly. The thing was to see what differences is any the amps had. One of the things that stood out was that some amps seemed to have a wider stage, some had a higher stage. There was more info on this, but this is what I remember. The overall differences were not huge, but the stage thing was something that they picked out (it was not huge, but there).

Just stating what I have read

cam5860

The Alpine v-12 amps will make all those amps yall like sound like ****.

MacLeod

1996blackmax wrote:

As far as the stage thing. I have two issues of Car Audio and Electronics where they took four amps and compared them. On one issue they did all of the testing and measuring, on the next issued they did the objective listening. One amp was a tube amp, another a full range class D, and the others I believe were A/B. There were four pretty experienced guys lending their ears if I remember correctly. The thing was to see what differences is any the amps had. One of the things that stood out was that some amps seemed to have a wider stage, some had a higher stage. There was more info on this, but this is what I remember. The overall differences were not huge, but the stage thing was something that they picked out (it was not huge, but there).

Yeah, I remember that issue. It was kinda stupid.

They were big proponents of the warm sounding amps but after the test they determined that there was no tonal difference between the amps but instead there were staging differences! Gimme a break!

That test was also anything but scientific. They just set up a bunch of amps and then let the testers score them in the order they liked best and because a couple more people scored the Tru amp higher than the rest they determined it must have been the winner. The only scientific, unbiased way to test these theories is with a double blind test like Richard Clark's.

neomagus00

i can see where an amp could change the imaging or staging of a setup... my stage, for example, is very dependant on my EQ... treble goes up, stage gets higher and narrower... so if they have a twitchy install, the differences between amps could highlight that...

just an idea to explain the differences...

HiPerf360

MacLeod wrote:

I suppose you could make an argument that an amp with better crossovers or more flexible bass boost circuitry could be more "musical" but then we're not talking about the amp anymore but rather its EQ's.
QUOTE]


Ok you just admitted it.... there is a good possibility that amps might sound different.

My definition (although slightly skewed from the scientific definition) is as follows; the amp includes every circuit, resistor, capacitor, potentiometer....hell, anything that has mass inside the case as part of the amp.

I think we can all agree on this generalization.

So i think one amp sounds different than another.

Would this mean that your response to my opinion that one cd player sounds different than another be: Oh, well yeah the output circuitry in that one is different than this one so it sounds different, i was talking about the transport.

Red230SX

HiPerf360 wrote:

MacLeod wrote:

I suppose you could make an argument that an amp with better crossovers or more flexible bass boost circuitry could be more "musical" but then we're not talking about the amp anymore but rather its EQ's.
QUOTE]


Ok you just admitted it.... there is a good possibility that amps might sound different.

My definition (although slightly skewed from the scientific definition) is as follows; the amp includes every circuit, resistor, capacitor, potentiometer....hell, anything that has mass inside the case as part of the amp.

I think we can all agree on this generalization.

So i think one amp sounds different than another.

Would this mean that your response to my opinion that one cd player sounds different than another be: Oh, well yeah the output circuitry in that one is different than this one so it sounds different, i was talking about the transport.

Assuming all amps are built to the same circuit layout with all the same spec
components and no bass managment or equalization to color the tonality. Then
yes they should FR the same and "sound" the same. But there are many amps
that are not built to par (too loose tolerance on the Resistors and Capacitors)
not enough Capacitance to handle hard dynamic loads. And then there are
amps that add intentional coloration via bass management and other filtering.

In an ideal DBX with two of the same spec amps with same spec build and
same power output at every incriment from 20Hz to 20Khz no human should
be able to discern a difference because there should ideally be no measureable
difference.

I am no EE but I do "Dabble" a little

exalted512

yay, lets all pay 900 for a 13w7 when i can get an adire brahma with more xmax, more efficient, have a flatter BL curve, handle a **** load more power and be half the cost

hell, legacy would be a fantastic product if they were sold for 10 bucks a pop. Same goes with JL, they make a great product, but they suck at pricing. Entirely too overpriced.
-Cody