The great speaker wire/cable debate

outlander

OK here’s the deal, I went to my local high end dealer the other day and ask about used tube preamps. I told the owner of the store I was looking to take some of the harshness out of my system. He asked what I had for equipment and then asked what I had for speaker wire. I told him 12 AWG Monster cable. He looked like he just got snapped in the nuts with a wet towel when I told him about the Monster cable. He said there’s my problem, my speaker wire. I was pretty skeptical when he showed me a $450 pair of Transparent Musicwave 10’ cables but when he offered to lend me a loaner pair for the weekend I figured I had nothing to lose. I got the cables home and sure enough the harshness was gone, the improvement was undeniable. Well at the end of the weekend the cables had to go back and now I find myself saving for new cables. My question is do you think you have to spend $450+ on a network cable to get this type of improvement or is there wire in the ~$4.0’ range without a network that will get rid of the harshness you get with cheaper wire like Monster?
Thanks!

MacLeod

Before I hop up on my soap box, what are network cables? Ive not heard of them. How are they different from regular RCA cables?

outlander

A network cable has a passive circuit to filter noise above the audio frequencies. I figure it’s just a basic LC filter. You can check out the Transparent site at http://www.transparentcable.com/index2.html
O

beardog03

get MIT`s and don`t look back..

Imho...of course...

MacLeod

Oh, ok. So theyre not the typical passive RCA cables then.

Well I have no experience with them so I cant say. It is possible they did get rid of the harshness but couldnt you achieve the same goal with your EQ by tuning down higher end frequencies some?

pjdami

Transparent makes great wire. Some people hate it and think its a rip-off but I've had great success with it in a couple of my systems for synergy reasons.

If you are on a budget check out DH Labs Silver Sonic T-14.

http://www.value-audio.com/

Or check out Audiogon for Transparent or MIT deals on used wire. If you don't like it just sell it back there.

Usually in a situation like yours a little experimentation may be called for to find what fits your needs / budget.

TroyD

Yawn

outlander

TroyD,
A week ago I would have said the same thing, but hearing is believing. If you get a chance some time a least check them out.
O

reeltrouble1

Regardless of your individual side of the coin the only validation that matters is your own.


RT1

disneyjoe7

Wire is wire no difference.

Tour2ma

Wait a second, guys... The title says "debate", but there's no debate here, just a fellow asking for advice on some speaker wire. No different than asking about a phono-pre, or any other "new-to-him" piece of gear.

outlander,
MC started all the wire rage, but they're pretty much just hype, ala Bose.

There are a number of innovative wire companies out there. Whether or not Transparent is one of them is open to debate. MIT has gained/ is gaining quite a following here, but is not the only player.

More moderately priced offerings from Signal Cable and BlueJeans Cable have also been enjoyed here.

As mentioned above, consider used wire. There are several web-sites where you can find used wire significantly cheaper than new, as folks steadily upgrade. Same is true for interconnects.

F1nut

Just a thought, but perhaps you can work out a payment plan with the dealer who was nice enough to open your ears to what good wire can do.

Red230SX

Just my opinion.. If your sound is harsh then you need to adress the room treatments,
positioning and the frequency response of your gear. I am not a beleiver in cable magic
I am a beleiver in flat response which can be acheived with a good Mic and computer
software to see in real time what the "room" is doing and then adress those issues with
absorbsion, deflection etc.

That's just my opinion and YMMV.

disneyjoe7

If the speaker wires helped his problem, why open another can of worms?


Just my $.02

mantis

disneyjoe7 wrote:

If the speaker wires helped his problem, why open another can of worms?


Just my $.02

Because you have a bunch of bored people with nothing better to offer or do. Like posting "Yawn".

In my opnion if you can't afford going new, I 2nd the Audiogon advise. You can find excellent shape wire there for some great prices. Transparent is some excellent wire. Monstercable is mostly harsh and not so good sounding.

I don't think they advanced there technology in 10 years. there is alot of good wire out there to discover.Transparent is a hell of a place to start.

Good luck with your findings,

Dan

outlander

Thanks guys for all the great posts. I’ve been keeping my eye on ebay and Audiogone all week and there so deals to be had. It’s interesting some of you guys should feel so strongly about MIT cables. I started reading about them this week too. They seem like a more engineering driven company than Transparent, makes me wonder if it’s reflected in their sound. And in regards to the people that think cable is a bunch of BS, all I can say is give a pair a try. Some high end stores will allow you to borrow a pair to check out, so do yourself a favor and at least try them.
O

disneyjoe7

Mantis,

As not to confuse anyone my posting was in reference to Red230SX about room acoustics. I agree that Audiogon is a great place to buy used equipment, so I'm to recommending that if the new price scared you away.

pjdami

F1nut wrote:

Just a thought, but perhaps you can work out a payment plan with the dealer who was nice enough to open your ears to what good wire can do.

Jesse,
You bring up a good point there. I am guilty of it too. That is going to the local dealer to listen to what I like and then go online or on audiogon to buy what I want. Local hi-fi shops are becoming extinct around here and are hurting for business. So what I try to do is at least occasionally buy something from them just to show them that I'm not all BS about buying something everytime I walk through the door.

My dealer was very "generous" allowing me to audition the Krell KAV400xi integrated over one weekend and also let me borrow a Transparent powercord. I bought the Krell and ordered some new Transparent from him to support his business and future help / needs that I may have. He knows me by first name now and I get invited to seminars from speaker vendors etc.

When you find a good dealer with a good ear and let's you try stuff out... its good to throw him a bone every once and a while.

disneyjoe7

I'm beginning to feel the same way about Brick & Mortar stores so yes I throw them a bone every once and a while. Don't feel prices are fair at times but if only 10-25% more then the local support is something that justifies this pricing.

BobMcG

beardog03 wrote:

get MIT`s and don`t look back..

This might just be some sound advice if you're interested in this type of cable. I can remember a little test that was performed (and revealed in these Forums years ago) involving the dismantling of the passive networks on a pair of MITs and a pair of Transparent cables. Photos were taken of the entire process.

The interior of the MIT box showed an array of mutiple quality parts carefully laid out and installed with neatness and great care. You could actually look at a "network" that had some real design, thought and care put into it for the money you'd spend on the cables.

The Transparent cable was quite the opposite. For all of the money that the cable cost, the network showed only a "couple" of really cheap (extremely inexpensive) parts that were burried in some kind of crap that filled the box. (Now this was some time ago so I don't remember what the the fill was but it was just that, fill, so the box wasn't empty and it was difficult to see what was actually hidden in the box until it was removed. Surprised a lot of people.

I'm not sure if the same holds true to this day but it's something to think about.

It was also claimed that the Transparent idea was indeed nothing more than a knock off of the MITs and the entire story behind the people involved in the creation of the MIT principle and the people involved in forming the Transparent wires and their relationships to each other. I didn't commit the entire story to memory but it was a very interesting read. Someone in here may have the story on their HD or a link to what I'm talking about.

BobMcG

outlander wrote:

TroyD,
A week ago I would have said the same thing, but hearing is believing. If you get a chance some time a least check them out.
O

You're preaching to the choir on this one...

steveinaz

You don't need to go $450/pr to get improvement over MC. My Kimber 8TC were $238/8ft pair.

polkatese

steveinaz wrote:

You don't need to go $450/pr to get improvement over MC. My Kimber 8TC were $238/8ft pair.

right on, Steve! another fact: I replaced my Monster cable with Signal Cable classic, which is even less than your Kimber, and notice a significant improvement!

aaharvel

A good salesman with Placebo can create an enormously powerful tool.
Still, if you're happy with the wire and can tell a difference- get it. More power to ya.

Tour2ma

BobMcG wrote:

This might just be some sound advice if you're interested in this type of cable. I can remember a little test that was performed (and revealed in these Forums years ago) involving the dismantling of the passive networks on a pair of MITs and a pair of Transparent cables. Photos were taken of the entire process.

Good memory..
http://cable.tcnerd.com/whymit.asp

pjdami

Tour2ma wrote:

Good memory..
http://cable.tcnerd.com/whymit.asp

Yep. Seen and read that before. Plenty of "good" wire companies don't use any networks at all. Nordost and Acoustic Zen come to mind. A lot of the technology is still "in the wire" design. Transparent nows has the next generation which is called "mm" technology.

I do believe that Transparent "tunes" each cable differently based on the length. They also try to "tune" out frequencies above 20,000 hz (may be higher don't remember). So they use inductors / capacitors to get this result. Seems to work fine for a lot of speaker crossover designs. My MMGs only have one capacitor and one inductor for the crossover. So my point here is that # of parts really shouldn't mean squat as far as the network design is concerned. If I'm wrong, I'll be mighty obliged to be educated here.

One of these days I'll try out some MIT. Heck, I may love it based on what all you guys say and I do respect all of your opinions. Transparent still has the uncanny micro details and very focused images I have found. Even more than the Kimbers that I also run.

Tour2ma

That was one of the criticisms of Transparent, that they were just filtering the signal.

Here's the old thread that had "the cable nerd" link.
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22371&highlight=mit+box*

BobMcG

Damn, my mind is getting shot I guess. I thought this surfaced longer ago.

Tour2ma

It may have, Bob, but agree it's unlikely that it did. Afterall, we never repeat a thread topic around here...

polkatese

pjdami wrote:

One of these days I'll try out some MIT. Heck, I may love it based on what all you guys say and I do respect all of your opinions. Transparent still has the uncanny micro details and very focused images I have found. Even more than the Kimbers that I also run.

Paul, I compared Transparent musiclinkplus and MIT S3 Shotgun, and found that MIT gives me more details and slightly better low end. Just a fyi.

outlander

I know this is getting off subject but I’m thinking about picking up a pair of MIT Terminator 2 bi-wire. I’m just not sure how I would make the bi-wire connection to my 10B’s. Do you just plug both plus cables into the plus input of the speaker and the same for the minus?
O