The great speaker wire/cable debate

BobMcG

Seeing as how the 10s aren't biwireable speakers, why waste the money on biwires for them?

pjdami

outlander wrote:

I know this is getting off subject but I’m thinking about picking up a pair of MIT Terminator 2 bi-wire. I’m just not sure how I would make the bi-wire connection to my 10B’s. Do you just plug both plus cables into the plus input of the speaker and the same for the minus?
O

Why not just get the single run instead of the bi-wire?

What you say is true, you could do that if you get an adapting banana plug or something BUT... The question would be about the network though. I was going to biwire my LSi using two single runs of Transparents with the networks and my dealer advised me against that because of the networks. Not sure about all the technicalities but I took his advice. I remember him saying something about the filtering process.

Unless you plan on getting a different speaker that is bi-wireable in the future I would say get the single run MITs. Keep it simple and what it is designed for.

pjdami

BobMcG wrote:

Seeing as how the 10s aren't biwireable speakers, why waste the money on biwires for them?

+1. The biwires are going to be more expensive; another good reason to go with the single run.

outlander

Including bi-wired cables would double my options on ebay and Audiogone. So if there’s no harm in hooking up the two pluses to one input (and the same for the negative) I figured what the heck.
O

pjdami

outlander wrote:

Including bi-wired cables would double my options on ebay and Audiogone. So if there’s no harm in hooking up the two pluses to one input (and the same for the negative) I figured what the heck.
O

I look at this way. MIT is using a network where they may be tuning the signal for the high frequencies for the highs on the biwire and tuning the frequencies for the lows on the other wires. What makes you think when you combine them at the binding post that you will be able to make it whole again? I wouldn't do it. Just my opinion.

outlander

Or are the two reds common and the two blacks common? Anyone have a pair of of MIT bi-wired and an ohm meter that could let us know? That would be VERY interesting.
O

F1nut

Red is positive, black is negative. In your case you'd join the 2 reds as you would join the 2 blacks.

outlander

So F1nut, your saying the 2 positives (and 2 negatives) are common. And pjdami would be concerned that the two outputs are tuned differently. Um, that’s a big difference. Anyone have a pair of bi-wired cables and an Ohm meter?
O

disneyjoe7

The Bi-wire cable could have a different size conductor, for Highs vs. the Lows. This difference would be so small a common VOM wouldn't detect the ohm difference. Even if Bi-wires opened up your buying opportunities I would still be looking for single wires only.

Tour2ma

MIT might be using different circuit elements in their bi-wire box...

While normally I would not attempt to predict what is going on in his mind, in this case I think what our resident MIT buff is saying that you can recombine the signals without any info loss.

It does stand to reason that if you can't recombine them, then the info would not be whole if delivered separately...

The pos/ pos (red/red) detail is due to the danger of shorting out your amp.

Jesse, can I have an Ed Z?

dorokusai

The design utilizes different approaches to the high/low pass "filters"....and naturally you could combine the terminations for a non bi-wireable speaker. My question would be, why buy those cables in the first place if you couldn't use them correctly?

Would there be signal or information lost? I have no idea as I don't even believe in bi-wires. It's designed that way for a reason, if you don't hear a difference or believe the explanation....there are alot of other things in this world to play with.

There's no need to put a VOM on a cable that has a single termination at the opposite end of a bi-wire split....they are common to one another at that point....HELLO?

F1nut

For some reason MIT seems to have sold a lot more T2 Bi-wire speaker cables than single runs and seeing as they don't make them anymore finding single runs is very hard, which is probably why Outlander is considering buying the bi-wires.

As long as you connect red/red and black/black you will not endanger your gear.

Bruce, Ed Z!

disneyjoe7

MIT cable seems to be loved here, I heard them loved the system overall (Doro's Maggie / Cary pre / Parasound Amp / MIT cables / Sweet system.) Ok but I iffy why those cable with filtering chokes / RC networks Resistor / Caps sound better then any Audioquest cables or whatever else who don't use this Goofy choke systems. So my question is why don't you feel this way doesn't also color the music?

beardog03

the MIT`s seemed to open up the sound rather than color it, in my opinion..
I compared them to the AQ King Cobra`s...

I do wonder if the "box" on the MIT`s are somewhat similar to the battery packs on the AQ`s though.
The AQ`s use battery packs, and the MIT`s use a resistor (I think)

disneyjoe7

Beardog03,

I'm questioning the Speaker Cables only, sorry for any confusing.

Tour2ma

Thanks, Jesse...

dorokusai wrote:

My question would be, why buy those cables in the first place if you couldn't use them correctly?

To be ready for the next pair of speakers that are bi-wireable...

Tour(Mr. Obvious)2ma

pjdami

F1nut wrote:

For some reason MIT seems to have sold a lot more T2 Bi-wire speaker cables than single runs and seeing as they don't make them anymore finding single runs is very hard, which is probably why Outlander is considering buying the bi-wires.

As long as you connect red/red and black/black you will not endanger your gear.

Bruce, Ed Z!

I understand the red / red, black / black recombined at the speaker binding posts should not damage the speakers / amp. The question really is about what happens to the signal.

I don't recall this being discussed before so out of curiousity I emailed both MIT and Transparent with the question. Let's see how good their customer service departments are with answering questions.

Tour2ma

Tour2ma wrote:

... in this case I think what our resident MIT buff is saying that you can recombine the signals without any info loss.

It does stand to reason that if you can't recombine them, then the info would not be whole if delivered separately...

Jesse, can I have an Ed Z?

F1nut wrote:

Bruce, Ed Z!

Looks like a short-term memory issue to me...

outlander

Just got off the phone with an apps. Engineer at MIT Cables and he said there is no problem using the bi-wired cable on standard single input speakers. What he said was “in fact it will sound really good”. Well that certainly opens up a lot of options from MIT.
O

dorokusai

I don't recall anyone saying there would be a problem, but I guess further clarification is good.

Do yourself a favor, skip the Terminator/AVT series and look for used Shotguns or 330 SeriesII on Audiogon or elsewhere.

outlander

Your killing me. What's wrong with the terminator series?
O

F1nut

The earlier 330 series and the present Shotgun series are MUCH better cables. Of course, they cost more.

pjdami

Tour2ma wrote:

Looks like a short-term memory issue to me...

Nah. Even though I typed that early one morning before work and my first cup of coffee, I knew what I was doing. Not questioning F1's knowledge because he has helped me numerous times before with advice, but I have learned in my professional career not to assume anything. If F1 would have said that he had spoken with an MIT engineer in the past or something along those lines then the assumption would then be a reality. In other words, with something as "technical" as this, I wanted to hear it straight from the horses mouth as they say.

Reply from MIT:

Thank you for your question, yes you can use a bi wire with single binding post speakers, this can be accomplished by summing the ends of the cable at the speaker posts. when the bi wire signal is recombined, no signal information will be lost. however it is recommended that you use single (non-biwire) speaker cables that match the terminals on your speakers.

Reply from Transparent:

The Bi-Wire cables are fine to use. My recommendation would be to use the leads labeled "bass", and attach these to the appropriate red and black binding post. The remaining two tails should be covered to prevent any shorts from occurring. Another option would be to use traditional speaker cables, and in the future, purchase jumpers made from the same level of speaker cable to use between the bi-wire posts. Don't confuse this with Transparent Bi-Cable, which has 4 separate conductors and 2 separate networks in the network module.

Tour2ma

Intersting contrast in replies.

Not sure how to take the Transparent reply, or replies, but one take is that their bi-wires do nothing special since they say to only use the bass leads.

dorokusai

Tour2ma wrote:

Intersting contrast in replies.

Not sure how to take the Transparent reply, or replies, but one take is that their bi-wires do nothing special since they say to only use the bass leads.

I agree. What Transparent meant to say is that their Bi-Wire cables don't matter. As with any bi-wire cable, depending on the manufacturer, you can combine the tails. The only manufacturer I know that runs individual networks is MIT, but then again, noone else I am aware of utilizes network arrays in cabling.

I know, why did MIT say that you could combine them? I will have to ask that you actually think about that question for a second.

You sum the effect, or negate it in MIT theory, by combining the tails, the end result is as expected, sound. The network exists for a reason, but it doesn't mean it's incapable of working in a more traditional format.

Transparent obviously doesn't do anything in regards to bi-wires or their respective network, or it would be the same response.

Transparent is, and always has been a MIT knockoff. If you've spent money on them, please sell them and invest in something else.

beardog03

combining tails can be fun..!!!

disneyjoe7

Tour2ma wrote:

Intersting contrast in replies.

Not sure how to take the Transparent reply, or replies, but one take is that their bi-wires do nothing special since they say to only use the bass leads.

I'm thinking this Transparent reply is referring to their network cables changing their charactertics if shorted together on their ends. Now why doesn't bother MIT cables is my question?

dorokusai

disneyjoe7 wrote:

I'm thinking this Transparent reply is referring to their network cables changing their charactertics if shorted together on their ends. Now why doesn't bother MIT cables is my question?

Because signal flow is generic, and it's not AC that you're "shorting" out. All the wires, in either cable, still pass signal regardless of a network or lack thereof.

Tour2ma

dorokusai wrote:

I know, why did MIT say that you could combine them? I will have to ask that you actually think about that question for a second.

Damn... messed up and thought about it a full minute and now I am in an infinite loop...

dorokusai

Lol