Signal Flow Direction?

polkatese

Can we at least agree that: for 80% of the folks out there, "Signal Cable" class of cables would be the end of their journey, and the other 20% would have gone to no limit? of course, assuming that if I am in the market for a 5 figures $$ gears, I would insist on spending at least 4 figures $$ cables. Why? because I can and I can hear the difference! Ain't life a ****?

HiPerf360

jmierzur wrote:

Attached is a picture of AR Master cables. They show a cut-away of the cable construction.

They have spiraled center conductors for the signal and additionaly "Two Layers of Shielding: one 95%+ copper braids and one 100% overlapped Mylar® foil". Using this type of cable construction, it is possible to connect shielding only at one end. As you have noted, this would not be possible with a coax cable that has one center conductor and one shield.

Yes, i see but the shielded part of the wires are all still connected to the outter ring on one side as well as the "neutral" being connected to both sides of the outter ring. This is what i meant by backfeeding.

dorokusai

"Backfeeding" I've never heard this term.

shack

dorokusai wrote:

"Backfeeding" I've never heard this term.

And for good reason....It doesn't exist. It must be a neologism.

PolkThug

F1nut wrote:

Have you actually tried any brand new MIT cables? If you haven't, then I chuckle at your ignorance.

I chuckle at what you know you know.

shack

I know what I know and I think I know what F1 knows he knows or thinks he knows, but do we really know? I just don't know.

WilliamM2

"Backfeeding" I've never heard this term.

The term is incorrect, but he is correct that the shielding and neutral are both connected at the same point at one end of the cable (or both), then the neutral runs to the other end. So connecting the shield at only one end is pointless, and accomplishes nothing.

madmax

I know he knows, I've heard his system with different cables.
madmax

Skynut

Funny read.


No input.:D

dorokusai

WilliamM2 wrote:

The term is incorrect, but he is correct that the shielding and neutral are both connected at the same point at one end of the cable (or both), then the neutral runs to the other end. So connecting the shield at only one end is pointless, and accomplishes nothing.

So you haven't taken a grounding class recently then I presume?

BlueMDPicker

I know, at least I think I know, I've had experience with the AQ Diamondback. It uses a "drain wire" in its shielding design. If you don't think it makes a difference, put it in the chain on your setup and reverse the flow arrow. I'll be waiting here for a report. *chortle* (sorry, couldn't muster up a full chuckle):

"Diamondback is Triple-Balanced. This means there are three identical insulated conductors, in addition to a separate conductor underneath the 100% coverage foil shield. When used with XLR connectors and balanced electronics, the two positive signals (inverting and non-inverting) and the negative, all get the same low-distortion conducting path. The shield is attached to chassis ground through the case of the XLR, providing extremely effective shielding without contaminating the quality of the negative conducting path. When Diamondback is fitted with RCA plugs, two conductors are used together for the much higher potential across the negative connection, providing a substantial performance advantage. The shield is only attached at one end, providing total shield coverage without compromising the negative conducting path."

jmierzur

HiPerf360,

Since I did not feel like typing a reply, a couple minutes searching found a power cable post in the Cable Asylum at the AudioAsylum. This will give you the general concept to why only one end is connected.

---

Posted by Sean H ( i ) on July 08, 2001 at 15:02:15
In Reply to: what to do w/ drain wire? posted by blade on July 08, 2001 at 12:32:13:


The drain wire runs along (touches) the foil shield and the drain wire allows for a means to "drain" the shield of any noise it may pick up. Noise is picked up along the shield and the drain wire takes it away. You need to at lest connect the drain wire at the ground of the AC plug right in there with the ground wire. This way all the noise can be drained to ground. You have the option of connecting the drain wire to the ground of the IEC at the other end of the cord, but it's not imparative you do this. Some find this makes for better sound others say it doesn't because it could ill affect the sound of the component in that some noise may make it's way into the component. You might experiment with the drain wire connected or not connected. When I've built the 19364 cords I don't connect the drain wire at the component end.
Sean H

---

In my experiences, I have found that there are differences between cables regardless of price due to different conductor/dielectric materials, cable geometry, terminations etc. For example, my latest Harmonic Technology Pro-Silway MkII ICs have different sonic and performance characteristics compared to my cytogenetically treated AR Master ICs. Additionally, all the cytogenetically treated AR Master ICs have different sonic characteristics compared to one pair of untreated AR Master ICs.

According to your post:

“I agree hearing the difference in cables, these are just an item with a really bad diminishing return bell curve. I can hear the difference between "good" and "bad" interconnects, but the differences between a $50-100.00 cable compared to a $1000.00+ cable are inaudible.“

the above mentioned cables should all sound the same as the AR Master cables should fall within the lower end of the price category.

Actually, I envy your situation as not finding differences in ICs removes one component in the overall system equation. This will save you time and money by not having to upgrade interconnects when you decide to improve your system at a future date.

As I mentioned, these are my IC cable experiences. I can live with the fact that you may have reached another conclusion which I trust is based on practical experience. As such, I will not be debating my experiences with you, nor anyone else.

Regards.

steveinaz

I only know one thing, and that is that I don't know anything.

dorokusai

In addition to jmierzurs' cool post...if you connected the ground at each end, it would essentially become a conductor...and thus negate the whole idea of a ground.

Skynut

I for one believe direction makes some sort of difference.
I was told by someone (not worth naming) that the direction only matters for "break in", that the direction is there so once the wires are "broke in" if you disconnect them you know which way to hook them back up or they will have to "break in" again before they sound normal.

I feel that the grounded sheild is a far better explaination. The sheild is there for a reason. (when it's there at all) and grounding it so the noise has somewhere to go.

PolkThug

But does the "noise" actually follow the "drain"?

Blue, your *chortle* made me lol*.


* = a work safe lol, meaning my face and body tensed up as if I was lol, but I didn't vibrate my vocal chords to prevent bothering others.

steveinaz

Giving electrons direction helps them find their way home. Come on folk's this ain't rocket science.

WilliamM2

So you haven't taken a grounding class recently then I presume?

Have you? If the neutral wire and shield are both connected at the same point (ground), then BOTH are grounded. Since the nuetral wire is connected at both ends, then the two components share the same ground, whether the shield is connected to both ends, or not.

I don't see what is so hard to understand about that. The original post was not about power cables, he was talking about an interconnect.

WilliamM2

Hey, cable non-believers....chew on all this information for awhile.

The fact that MIT has patents on their designs does not prove there is any merit to their design, only that they came up with the design first, or were the first to patent it.

If John Curl never thought it was worth the time to improve audio....MFSL may not have existed....own any of these benchmark Redbook CD's? Burn them if you're so concerned.

Have you ever read John Curl's posts over at the Asylum? He believes in the GSIC chip, brilliant pebbles, and several other dubious tweeks. What is you feeling on these devices?


http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina27.htm

dorokusai

WilliamM2 wrote:

Have you? If the neutral wire and shield are both connected at the same point (ground), then BOTH are grounded. Since the nuetral wire is connected at both ends, then the two components share the same ground, whether the shield is connected to both ends, or not.

I don't see what is so hard to understand about that. The original post was not about power cables, he was talking about an interconnect.

Actually, yes. I'm not talking about power cables either. You can't ground an interconnect at both ends, it's simply not a ground anymore.

I don't see what is so hard to understand about that.<sic>

dorokusai

WilliamM2 wrote:

The fact that MIT has patents on their designs does not prove there is any merit to their design, only that they came up with the design first, or were the first to patent it.



Have you ever read John Curl's posts over at the Asylum? He believes in the GSIC chip, brilliant pebbles, and several other dubious tweeks. What is you feeling on these devices?


http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina27.htm

The patents are just one part of that link, read further. I'm not saying that the patents justify the means, where would you get that idea? If you find any other manufacturers that take the time to explain their position on why they build what they do, and explain the reasoning behind it....let me know. There are a couple in this industry, but not many.

I think Brilliant Pebbles are BS and alot of other stuff as well. The fact that he believes in them doesn't detract anything from the real work he has performed. CTC builders has a history with that Virginia based company, perhaps that's where the support comes from.

F1nut

I know this, John Curl and Bruce Brisson know more about audio than any of us could ever hope to know.

If you are one of the non-believers, that's fine. IMO, it's your loss especially if you haven't tried said cable to see for yourself. Bottom line, I could care less about arrows, network boxes, batteries, etc. The only thing that matters are the end results.

PolkThug

I'm following up with MIT about the exact nature of the y-axis % of their articulation response measurements. I feel it is the holy grail of interconnect measurement, and could, in turn, be used to objectively compare other parts of the audio chain. I sincerely hope its not pseudo-science and they can answer my questions.

The articulation response and its measurements as determined by Brisson could explain why two interconnects which both have ruler flat frequency responses, sound different.

*Fingers crossed*

puunda

I've heard many stories about why they have arrows on them. Most salesman would tell you that it's because the material is made so that it works 'better' in one direction - Well anyone with any kind of knowleage can work that one out.
I've heard of this 'shielding connected at one end' story and I must say it makes the most sense so far. I'm not sure if I beleive in the theory though.
I don't believe you can hear a difference in cables. I'm sure if you look hard enough you'll find some cables so bad that it does affect your sound. But I believe cable is such a simple and easy thing to make, it's not difficult to make one cheaply. But that's not why I'm posting.

I don't buy expensive cables for the reasons above. However I have bought and sold a some gear in the past few years. Often they will come with cables. Each time I get some (most will have arrorws on them) I open them up to see if the shielding is only connected at 1 end. I have opened up

Monster CD Standard
Audioqest Jade, turquoise, King Cobra
Straightwire (not sure on model)
VDH Thunderline (although I don't recall seeing an arrow on these)

NONE of them had a shielding connected at 1 end only. In fact, I don't recall the Moster and AQ Jade/Turquoise having shielding at all.

Point is even if the theory were correct, all the cables I've looked at above don't use them. The arrows are simply markings on the cables.

Skynut

You are supposed to hook up the one end and the arrows point you to the other end so you do not get lost.

Simple

WilliamM2

You can't ground an interconnect at both ends, it's simply not a ground anymore.

What is it then? When I hook one end of my multimeter to the cable end (outer side of RCA jack) and connect the other end to the case of the component, I get 0 ohms resistance (continuity) at BOTH ends of the cable. It would appear that both ends are grounded, if not please explain.

howie777

OK, let me chime in here. I am an engineer. I do embedded software and have asked about shielded cables with arrows and here is what I was told. (I have worked on DVD systems before, so I was someone involved in audio stuff on a professional level)

The arrow points to which end the shield is NOT connected to (or that is the common way to do it). The reason to only connect one end is to prevent noise that is picked up on the shield in the cable from reaching the amplifier. So in a situation where you have a DVD player connected to a receiver, you want the arrows pointing to the receiver. This way if any RF or other noise is picked up on the shield in the cables it is fed back into the DVD player and to the ground through the power cord and not into the reciever where it can couple onto the audio lines and distort the signal which then ends up coming out of your speakers. This makes perfect sense to me as I have been involved in a lot of EMC testing in my time as an enginner and this happens often in testing. Now if you have a DVD player that isn't designed well, you could end up with the same issue if the noise has the oppertunity to couple onto the audio lines where the DVD player is connected to the cable in which case you have not accomplished much. And the same if the receiver isn't designed well.

So there you have it, a perfectly sound reason to use cables with shields and make sure they are connected properly. Mind you, if there is no noise coming into the system, it makes absoutly no difference, its just a precaution in case of unwanted noise. It shouldn't have anything to do with ground loop, if anything it would make it worse as you are extending the grounds not shortening them. If you don't believe me, well I don't care. I'm right and your wrong! (just kidding )

As for burn in, I was told it is commonly refered to as skinning which only happends at very high frequency, as in Gigahertz. Which is well above any audio signal. I tend to believe more of the research that says you simply grow accustom to the sound of new spearker/wire over time and that sound becomes your center from which you judge all else on. So it sounds better because that is what you are expecting to hear. Besides, speakers/cables degrade with time, not get better. That just doesn't make any sense to me.

Just my opinion, it is an interesting topic though. And I have been known to be wrong from time to time

Howie

pearsall001

I've got a bow I'll sell ya cheap to go with those arrows!!!!

HiPerf360

WilliamM2 wrote:

The term is incorrect, but he is correct that the shielding and neutral are both connected at the same point at one end of the cable (or both), then the neutral runs to the other end. So connecting the shield at only one end is pointless, and accomplishes nothing.

This is exactly what I meant, sorry for the incorrect term, I was just looking for a word to give more of a visual to those that were not following me on this logic. I am not saying I am right but just trying to figure this out. So lets look at one other aspect of this:

All of my components including DVD player have a grounded electrical system, and all of the RCAs (outer) are connected to the chassis of the unit, the same place as the ground lug of the pre-amp. Now all of these are connected to the same power conditioner, and then they are all connected to all of the rest of the ground wires in my house and this ground bar is connected to two more places: the earth ground and the neutral bar of the house electrical system.

my point of all this rambling is, well... look there is a squirrel!

...all of these parts are connected to the same thing eventually, but the shielding is basically connected at both ends from the beginning.

HiPerf360

howie777 wrote:

As for burn in, I was told it is commonly refered to as skinning which only happends at very high frequency, as in Gigahertz. Which is well above any audio signal. I tend to believe more of the research that says you simply grow accustom to the sound of new spearker/wire over time and that sound becomes your center from which you judge all else on. So it sounds better because that is what you are expecting to hear. Besides, speakers/cables degrade with time, not get better. That just doesn't make any sense to me.

This is what I have always thought, but at this point I don't know what my favorite color is.