Just want to tell my 2-ch vs. AVR story..

jcaut

I've had my 2-ch rig set up in my den for the past year or so, consisting of a fully modified Toshiba 3950 DVD player as a source, a Dodd ELP tube preamp and various Carver amps (most recently a Sunfire 300), driving various Polk speakers (most recently RT800i's). The combination of several factors motivated me to try the AVR/ HT route back in that room:

1.) We got a new TV stand that had room below for audio components, or at least a receiver.

2.) My wife dislikes having to " turn on preamp, wait for tubes to warm up, turn on amp..". She likes to push a button and twist the volume knob and get sound.

3.) Our only TV is in this room, and though we don't watch many movies, I find that I do miss the theater sound on occasion.

4.) I've got nice HT components sitting in boxes in the closet.

Now the down sides:

1.) I listen to a lot of music and though I have other rigs set up in other rooms, acoustics-wise, the den is the best, and it's where we spend the most time.

2.) There's not room in there to set up both systems.

So..
I unboxed the Denon 3801 and the CS400i, set the RT3's back up as surrounds, connected the PSW1200, and hooked it all back up.

We watched "12 Monkeys". Then we watched the most recent Harry Potter movie. They sounded great, just as I remembered. Then the real test: I put in some music and set the Denon to "Direct" mode. Wow! What a difference! My wife didn't even hesitate to say that it sounded terrible. I thought maybe I had something hooked up wrong. It sounded so flat and lifeless... almost like mono. I double-checked my speaker polarity. I was shocked at the difference. Not that I didn't EXPECT there to be a difference, I just never imagined that it would be that huge!

The two-channel rig is coming back, one way or another. I haven't decided exactly how I'm going to work it out, but the AVR just doesn't cut it for music. I used to think it did. I suspect that the amp is the primary difference, but there's also the tube pre.

I know I'm not telling you guys anything you don't already know, but I had to say it anyway. Like I said, I just didn't expect that big of a difference. I'd go so far as to say that the 3801 is unlistenable to me, for music, now.

I used to be satisfied with my little Panasonic shelf system! Damn this hobby!!

Jason

audiobliss

jcaut wrote:

I used to be satisfied with my little Panasonic shelf system! Damn this hobby!!

Hehe.

Good story.

AsSiMiLaTeD

I actually still prefer the 3801 over most receivers I've heard for music, especially in Direct mode. But yeah, no comparison with your 2 ch rig...

Dennis Gardner

Hmm................I thought that "all amps sound alike"

AsSiMiLaTeD

They do. All Amps, receivers, CD players, preamps, and cables sound alike. All these people buying 'high end' amps and promoting 'separates' are full of BS...

/goes to fidget with the knobs on the Parasound...

jcaut

Well, you know... I tend to think that at least a good percentage of what I'm hearing has to do with the power difference. More specifically, current capability at various impedance levels. The Denon, though rated at (can't remember for sure) maybe 105 W/ch into 8 Ohms, is only marginally more at 6 Ohms. It just doesn't have anywhere near the juice that Sunfire has. The 800i's aren't the easiest of speakers to drive, though there are plenty that are more difficult. Looking at the impedance curve, they could be called 4 Ohm.

It's a truly amazing difference. I wanted to believe that I was imagining it, because I didnt really want to hear that big a difference. It's one thing to realize that the money I've spent on 2-ch gear was worth it, but I've about reached the limits of my budget, as far as components go, and I really don't want to think about how much better some other forum member's rigs sound than mine.

organ

LOL. Great story.

mantis

Intresting story. ut there are so many thngs you can do to change all that.

You seem to like Carver/ Sunfire, why not look into a Untimate recevier?? Sell everything you got to get it. I personally listened to it many times and I really like how musical it is. You could find one used and make enough money off the Denon and 2 ch system to get close to or pay for it. I'm sure there is some other gear you got somewhere that could find a better home.

Owning seperates or anything better then going backwards just sucks for sound quality. I tried my best to really love my rt12's that I got. I had em for awhile , liked the fact they I owned them, tried my best to just loe em for what they are and enjoy them... but in the end , I enjoy my Dynaudio's so much more. Even playing video games I can hear such a difference in sound quality. My hammer missles I can hear the crackle while they fly in the air. On the polks I couldn't hear that.

I suggest you look to the Ultimate receiver and retain your good 2 ch sound quality or get very close to it. You should check it out.

Dan

cfrizz

Did you hook up a separate amp to the pre-outs to see if that made a difference?

jcaut

Mantis,

Yeah, that would be an option I guess, if I couldn't come up with another solution. I wasn't so much looking for answers as just wanting to tell my story, but I appreciate the suggestion. I'm pretty happy with the Denon for theater and my 2-ch components for music. I might consider selling the Denon and just run the video sound through the 2-ch. There's no use in having it just sittin' around. HT's just not THAT important to me- I just thought it would be nice if I could make it work.

---

Cathy,

I had previously hooked the pre-outs to an amp and noticed a difference, but it was in another house and a different set-up. I'll try that here if I have a chance. The Sunfire is a pretty big, chunky amplifier, and I don't think I have room to use it and the receiver too. I think the real difference this time is that I've listened to the set up, as it was, for so long that I became pretty accustomed to what it sounded like. I can't say for sure that I did that before. I know Russ and others on here have said that they feel that's the best way to evaluate changes in sound, rather than doing the "A-B" thing. I'm now convinced that that is correct.

I'm interested in trying the external amp, just to see if it brings the life back even with the Denon as a pre. I said I thought power was a big part of the difference, but you can't discount the "tube" effect, either. I'll experiment when I get a chance. It'll almost have to be some day when I have the house to myself, which is not very often.

jcaut

And I should add that if I were going to try and sell gear in order to upgrade something, a set of big 'ol SDA's would be at the top of my list!

Jason

reeltrouble1

Jason,

I had similiar results with receivers. Especially the part about once thinking my receiver was good with music. I now know it pretty much sucked, got a little better when I put a decent amp to the rig, then totally opened up when I went with the tube pre's. Your post is heartfelt, hopefully, others will benefit. I have never heard any receiver that can match up with the Dodd for music, so don't underestimate that part of the system.

The part is about your wife is kind of funny, I can just see and hear saying, ooh that sounds awful. You could have Gary Dodd put an HT pass on your Dodd, then get the best of both worlds.

RT1

TroyD

Hmmmmm.......

Couple different ways you could go about this....unfortunately, getting around the wife is the biggest hurdle.

IF you've got separate amps for all channels AND your source has onboard DD decoding (has analog outs for all channels)....I've though it would be cool to pick up 2 add'l tube preamps (ala Dodd ELP) and run that way.

The only other way I can think to do it is to just have two separate rigs taking up the same real estate. Run the HT off the reciever and the 2ch stuff off separates....if you got the room.

BDT

ND13

I need to try that out with my Toshiba DVD with built in DD decoder.

aaharvel

yup. Receivers and disc players alike.
Even though it got glowing reviews from hometheatermag (for both dvd and cd/sacd playback), my dvd player absolutely sucks when it comes to analog cd playback. I had to break down and get a 15 year old ES single disc. Now I can actually listen to CD's without whincing. WHat used to be a bright, brittle sound has now turned into a warm, dry sound. I've now realized that CD is a great format (i don't even care that sacd is now on life support)- it all depends on what you play the discs on.

reeltrouble1

Hello, now BDT 3 ELP idea would have great sex appeal, but really, call Gary Dodd and ask him to put an HT pass on your ELP, it will work like a charm. Your Denon just has to have pre-outs which I thought the 3801 did.

RT1

amulford

I have to agree with Dan. You should try out an Ultimate. No kidding, it is about as musical a receiver as I have ever heard, and has the **** to drive anything you can throw at it.

jcaut

Thanks for all the suggestions. I'm leaning towards Troy's suggestion of just setting up two seperate rigs, HT and 2-ch. But I DON'T really have the real estate. I could make room if I moved that PSW1200... but I'd need that on the HT side. Anyway that's probably the route I'll take. I'm always happy to cram MORE speakers into the room.

I've got the amps and a DVDP with built-in decoding-- Can't afford more ELP's though, and definitely don't have the room for that. It would be cool. But, talk about confusing the wife!

I wish somebody close had one of those Ultimate receivers so I could listen to one. For some reason it just doesn't appeal to me at this point. Maybe it would if I heard one. How much do they go for? And what's a pristine 3801 sell for these days? I paid full retail for that thing...

I thought I knew what we were talking about with the HT-pass thru, but I'm getting confused. Someone explain how that works, please.

Jason

madmax

How about this idea. Set up your 2 channel rig. Done. Now, set up your HT center and surrounds using your receiver. Take the front L and R from the receiver and connect to an input on the Dodd. Now, 2 channel is 2 channel but HT uses your 2 channel for left and right while your receiver runs the center and surround. Seems reasonable anyway.
madmax

adam2434

madmax wrote:

How about this idea. Set up your 2 channel rig. Done. Now, set up your HT center and surrounds using your receiver. Take the front L and R from the receiver and connect to an input on the Dodd. Now, 2 channel is 2 channel but HT uses your 2 channel for left and right while your receiver runs the center and surround. Seems reasonable anyway.
madmax

That's exactly how I'm set up, and it seems to work well. I do not hear any issues for HT by having the front L and R see 2 preamp stages. I just set my preamp to a predetermined level that has been calibrated to the rest of the HT channels. This allows me to maximize 2 ch with only a slight compromise (I can't hear any issues) to HT - a better overall compromise in my opinion, if you're trying to set up a 2 ch system and a HT system with the same speakers.

For 2 ch listening, I was surprised to learn that my cheap Cambridge pre-amp sounded considerably better than using my receiver's pre-outs directly to my amps.

reeltrouble1

It is reasonable but the sonics on the left and right mains are going to be much different than the other speakers using the Dodd. He needs the pass through installed. Oh did I say he needs the pass through installed? Might I mention a pass through solution? Gee, I think a pass through will work.

Ok I am done.

RT1

Ricardo

I think he does not know what a pass through is; Did he mention that he wants to know what a pass through is? I think it might be a good idea if someone explained what a pass through is

reeltrouble1

OOOPs, sorry Jason, OK the pass through how it works.

Gary Dodd takes one of your outputs and makes it an input or installs one (your choice), then he puts a nice little toggle switch on the front, HT one position 2 ch the other. You run your front's preouts from the Denon to the new input on the Dodd, the signal is passed through to the output which of course runs to your amps left and right. Its the same thing Max suggested EXCEPT the tube pre does not add its sonics to the signal AND you dont burn tube time for HT. I have this option on both my Dodds and it works like a charm.

RT1

madmax

My idea might actually work better if there were a way to pass the signal directly through the preamp to the amp. Does anyone have a solution to that problem? However, there will still be a difference because the Sunfire amp for L&R and the receiver amps for the surround and center will sound different. I guess my premise deals with compromising the HT while not compromising the HS at all.
madmax

reeltrouble1

madmax wrote:

My idea might actually work better if there were a way to pass the signal directly through the preamp to the amp. madmax

Funny one Chuck, err yea, passing the signal straight through, yep that will work, uh uh uh, oh yea, I think they call that a pass through. Unless you bulid tube amps I would not try it as a DIY. But hey a new one only costs 389.00 right now.

RT1

madmax

Oh, BTW, does the Dodd color the signal that much? It shouldn't. It should be that the L&R are just a better quality output with or without the Dodd.
madmax

audiobliss

Now wait a minute. It's my thinking that it very well better color the sound! If not, if I don't get that wonderful 'tube' sound, why in the world would I want the hassle of tubes instead of a mroe convenient SS pre?

reeltrouble1

I think anybody into 2 ch would likely notice, heck it might sound good for all I know but you would be mixing the sonics of the Denon and the Dodd, one of best benefits of the pass through is you are not burning tube time on HT.

I would at least call him and discuss the possibilities and cost. You still have the Denon to use in the interim and your problem will solved for good.

RT1

audiobliss

Except for the fact that I believe he said he doesn't have enough room for his receiver, pre, and amp.

reeltrouble1

Well, then he simply needs a left-handed rack stretcher with a pass through!!

RT1

organ

If you don't have enough room to set up another rig, just connect both the receiver and seperates to your mains. If you do this, MAKE SURE you only have one amplification source on at a time.

Maurice