My HU!!!!

hellohello

isnt it more amperage than voltage... turning off an internal amplifier wouldnt increase the voltage, but it would free up some amperage, in effect the H/U would be drawing less power from the battery... I dont see what that would achieve

PolkThug

Simple is better. The less that is on, the less that can interfere.

exalted512

id like to see anyone that could actually tell a difference in SQ. It would be exteremly simple to do. Its just a regular switch thats basically connected to the REM of your internal amplifier. Its not that Pioneer cant do it, its just they chose not to because it doesnt make an audible difference.
-Cody

PolkThug

exalted512 wrote:

id like to see anyone that could actually tell a difference in SQ. It would be exteremly simple to do. Its just a regular switch thats basically connected to the REM of your internal amplifier. Its not that Pioneer cant do it, its just they chose not to because it doesnt make an audible difference.
-Cody

Probably like a lot of things in audio, a difference can be heard if it can be "seen", but a blind test would yield no difference.

These direct or pure modes have been in home audio for quite awhile.

audiobliss

I think I'd agree with that. I can't imagine actually listening critically enough to hear the difference, but it does indeed 'sound' good on paper.

I still like Pioneer Premier the best. Well, I guess I like Eclipse the best. Then Pioneer Premier.

exalted512

PolkThug wrote:

Probably like a lot of things in audio, a difference can be heard if it can be "seen", but a blind test would yield no difference.

exactly.
-Cody

1996blackmax

cam5860 wrote:

There's more to a headunit than dac's and preamp output voltage. I mean yeah look alpine runs the 1 bit dac's on there headunits thats because they saved the 24 bit dacs for they top of the line headunit the f1 model. I mean look theres a lot more ways to improve sound quality than just dac's think about it one way to improve sound quality is to be able to turn the internal amp off in the radio like alpine has pioneer does not even offer that feature. Alpine is number 1 in mobile electronics and will be for a longtime to come. they were the first to market the ipod adapter for cars. They were the first to market a true digital amp that could be controlled from the headunit. They were the first to offer a headunit with xm radio built into the unit i mean the list goes on and on.

I still don't understand why they do not use better DAC's . I am not dumb and realize it's mainly money, but why let other companies continue to outdo your company? Other companies do have better DAC's, and not on stuff that is outrageously over priced. The top of the line Clarion unit would come close to the performance of the F#1 HU, but it cost a lot less. While still expensive at little over a grand from an authorized dealer, it would give the Alpine a good run for it's money. Eclipse HU's also use 24bit DAC's with their two top models which can be had for $500 to $600 dollars from authorized dealers. I bought mine for $487 dollars with a 7 year warranty. While they may not achieve the same level of performance as the Alpine F#1 gear, they would get close at a fraction of the cost. Now would the thousand of more dollars be worth it to get you that extra bit, you will have to answer that for yourself. For me it is not, even if I could drop that kind of dough.


Go hit up Google there are many articles regarding switching out DAC's. There are both measurable differences as well as audible differences. I have owned top of the line Alpine gear, the ones with the better DAC's sounded better. They produce a sound that has more detail, maybe not huge, but it is there. The music has what I guess people call presence/air to it. The digital to analog converters that were in my Alpine gear were the ones with 20 bit resolution from Burr Brown, I believe they were PCM1702's. The Regulated 1bit DAC's could not create the same sound. My Alpine 7998 I believe was the last unit Alpine made besides their F#1 stuff that actually had an upgraded power supply as well as premium output capacitors. It did not even have a built in amp. While both of the 7998's I owned produced nice sound they did not match the 20 bit DAC's. If Alpine was to produce units like they did before, and price them within reason, I would jump on the opportunity to get one. I would gladly have paid a little more for an Alpine HU with better DAC's. I would probably have considered staying with my 7998 if it had the BBE processor. The Media Expander was just awful, just pay the royalties to BBE, I will pay a little more for the HU. I still hope Alpine goes back to it's roots and puts stuff out that will at least be as good as the competitions similarly priced products.

Now about the built in power amp thing. My Eclipse CD8454 has a built in amplifier that can't be turned off. If you think that any of the current Alpine gear that you can turn off the power amp on will sound better than this unit, you need to do some serious listening. Eclipse is very well known for putting out HU's with great sound. Not the easiest things to use or look at (I think my head unit looks ok), but you cannot knock them for SQ. I have owned many Alpine HU's and have listened to each one for hours. I have done the same with my Eclipse HU, and Pioneer HU. So I know what each of these units can and can't do. A lot of people just talk without knowing/listening/owning the products. I have done all of these with the HU I have mentioned.


The controlling the amp thing may be cool, but after I adjust my amps that is it, no further adjustments are needed. I have owned one of the amps you are talking about and I did like it a lot. I just felt that instead of putting all of those things into that amp, they should have put that time, money, effort into their top HU's.




One more thing . With my Alpine CDA-7949 I could go into the the menu and turn off the digital output. When I did this the 7949 took care of the digital to analog convesion. When I turned the digital output on, the 7949 passed the signal to my PXA-H600 in the digital domain and let the processor take care of the digital to analog conversion. All of the settings and connections remained the same, all that changed was which unit was doing the conversion. I could always tell the difference between the two. When I would do some work on my car and disconnect the battery the unit would revert back to the OEM setting of it doing the conversion. I would drive around without putting it back to how I had it, I would only swith the processor to one of the memory settings. I would say man the stereo does not sound right (the way I had it). It was not a huge difference, probably less than with the newer stuff. I would then remember to turn the digital output on. Now the 7949 is probably the best SQ HU that Alpine has put out in a while (besides the F#1 stuff). It is supposed to be one of the more neutral sounding HU's around, meaning it produced very nice sound without adding its own stuff to the music. This unit was used a lot in competitions in the late 90's and early 00's, there was good reason for it. I had many car audio mags with many winners in SQ using this HU. The 7949 has also been measured at producing a little over 6V's on its preout (this is clean output), a good amount more than the advertised 4V's. The newer units could not even muster the 4V's, and what they could push out at the limit was nowhere as clean. The unit also had some high grade parts related to its input & output power supplies, as well as other iternal components. If I could hear a difference when switching DAC's with this HU, I am sure that I heard the difference with the newer Alpine HU's that I owned.


Done for now

Whew.......

MacLeod

"Go ahead and kick that hornets nest."

There is no audible difference between DACs of Alpine, Pioneer or Clarion regardless how many bits. Im sure 24 bit or dual 24 bit or quadruple 48 bit or whatever DACs are superior to a lowly 1 bit but I dont believe there is an audible difference.

Kinda like an amp making .09% THD and one making .000001%. Yeah the one making .09 is inferior but could you really hear the difference and if you cant hear it then what does it matter.

audiobliss

"Ok."


*kick*


"Yaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!"


*dives into lake to escape wrath of persuing hornets*

MacLeod

Just wait, its coming. Nothing stirs em up more than claiming there is no audbile difference between things.

audiobliss

I know, 'cause that comment sturred me up quite a bit, too. I'm just suppressing the urge to join in.

1996blackmax

MacLeod wrote:

"Go ahead and kick that hornets nest."

There is no audible difference between DACs of Alpine, Pioneer or Clarion regardless how many bits. Im sure 24 bit or dual 24 bit or quadruple 48 bit or whatever DACs are superior to a lowly 1 bit but I dont believe there is an audible difference.

Kinda like an amp making .09% THD and one making .000001%. Yeah the one making .09 is inferior but could you really hear the difference and if you cant hear it then what does it matter.

It's ok Mac, once your ears mature a little you will understand .


Actually there are some audio units that actually produce a little more distortion but actually sound better than others..........

1996blackmax

Also you could get some middle of the road Alpine components that will sound the same as your new components. NO audible difference there either .

VR3

Its not nessicarially components with higher distortion sound "better"...

It is probally along the lines they were measured different... (since there is no standard)...

I bet a 100 dollar Jensen receiver could sport a .000000000000001 THD rating if you played it low enough (inaudible?)

But there are some components with rediculously high THD levels (Sunfire for instance)...that sound fantastic

1996blackmax

I said some units do. I've read reviews where amps produced a little more distortion that the next amp being tested, but produced more pleasing music. Lower distortion #'s are not the only thing to go by.

audiobliss

So it all boils down to....scratch all the specs and paper work, and go listen to it yourself. Then, when somebody says something else sounds better, you tell 'em to take a hike 'cause you like the way your stuff sounds.

1996blackmax

You got it man! Maybe not scratch it all, use it as a guide, but not an end all.


I have tried many different setup and HU's. It really comes down to what you like and what works for you.

Are we having fun or what .

Where's Mac

audiobliss

Hehe, I'm having fun. I dunno. I think Mac clocked out a bit too early.

Post 2999.

cam5860

Being able to shutoff the internal amp can make a difference in sound quality. Number one think about it the less heat you generate the less distortion your going to have that's common sense. I had a pioneer preimer headunit it was the first headunit they come out with the OEL display, and it was bad about overheating, and one of the main reasons for that is not being able to shutoff the internal amp, and number 2 that 6.5 preout voltage generates a lot of heat. Why you think most company's use the 4 volts preouts it's because heat hurts sound quality.

CrBoy

cam5860 wrote:

...number 2 that 6.5 preout voltage generates a lot of heat. Why you think most company's use the 4 volts preouts it's because heat hurts sound quality.

So I wonder why Eclipse HU's come with 8v preouts...? As far as I know the Eclipse HU's are some of the best out there, SQ-wise

MacLeod

Here I am! Another nice long 11.5 hour day at my suck **** job.

Dont pay attention to amps rated THD. All it tells is how hard the amp must be pushed to make its rated power. An amp making 100 watts at 1% THD would likely make .05% at 50 watts (not exact numbers there).

Jstas

cam5860 wrote:

Being able to shutoff the internal amp can make a difference in sound quality. Number one think about it the less heat you generate the less distortion your going to have that's common sense. I had a pioneer preimer headunit it was the first headunit they come out with the OEL display, and it was bad about overheating, and one of the main reasons for that is not being able to shutoff the internal amp, and number 2 that 6.5 preout voltage generates a lot of heat. Why you think most company's use the 4 volts preouts it's because heat hurts sound quality.

Wow.

Uhhhhh....

...wow.



I really, really want to participate in the fun but I'm a 'mean Internet man' and make the little childrens cry. All I'll say is that you remind me of the foolish kids with the backwards hats and pants hanging down around thier knees that group infront of the stereo stores at the mall, pontificating about the virtues of XYZ brand trying to impress the little girls. You, like the little boys in the mall, need to get educated about the stereos, how they work and what is actually out there before you continue to further make an **** of yourself on Internet forums.





Before I get blasted, Alpine makes solid products, I have always maintained that. However, the tripe being regurgitated by this rocket scientist over here is pure bull hockey. It has no basis in reality and it is obvious that he has his head so far up Alpines' butt that he can't see the real picture and doesn't realize how much more stuff is out there for him to blow his hard earned money on.




BTW, that Pioneer is one slick piece of equipment and worth every penny paid. However, I was going to go and snag the 860 for my wife's car to replace her ailing Pioneer head unit and then I happened to see the Kenwood eXcelon 25th Anniversary head unit with the 24 bit Burr-Brown DAC, 5 volt pre-amp outputs and so many other stuff to list that I can't remember it all. Crutchfield has it so go to thier website and check it out.

CrBoy

Jstas wrote:

I really, really want to participate in the fun but I'm a 'mean Internet man' and make the little childrens cry. All I'll say is that you remind me of the foolish kids with the backwards hats and pants hanging down around thier knees that group infront of the stereo stores at the mall, pontificating about the virtues of XYZ brand trying to impress the little girls. You, like the little boys in the mall, need to get educated about the stereos, how they work and what is actually out there before you continue to further make an **** of yourself on Internet forums.

PRICELESS...!!!

audiobliss

*sigh*

I wish you wouldn't inject your posts with so much attitude. You're an overwhelmingly deep source of knowledge. It just always seems to come out along with a condescending air.

While I agree with you, I don't think cam5860 intendends to be 'blind to the facts.' There are several different stages along the audio highway, and we're all at different ones. I don't think cam5860 is trying to be 'stupid'; he just is at a different stage.

Well, I don't know what I'm trying to accomplish with this post. So I'll just stop here.

hellohello

yeah, some people just dont understand things... no matter how many times they put their finger in the electrical socket

1996blackmax

He is regurgatating (SP) stuff without really knowing what he is talking about.
His statement here clearly show this. My advice is for cam5860 to do a lot of reading, many of us here have. We do not just say stuff to say it, or because it sounds good.

cam5860 wrote:

Being able to shutoff the internal amp can make a difference in sound quality. Number one think about it the less heat you generate the less distortion your going to have that's common sense. I had a pioneer preimer headunit it was the first headunit they come out with the OEL display, and it was bad about overheating, and one of the main reasons for that is not being able to shutoff the internal amp, and number 2 that 6.5 preout voltage generates a lot of heat. Why you think most company's use the 4 volts preouts it's because heat hurts sound quality.

Like I said, you have a whole lot to learn. Some of the top SQ HU's actually have preouts that generate 16V's. My Eclipse HU puts out 8V's and if you think any current Alpine can hang with it in SQ keep Googling and listening.

That is it. I just got off work and have to go back and do a night shift in about 6 hours, and I am also on call tomorrow, so good night .

audiobliss

1996blackmax wrote:

We do not just say stuff to say it, or because it sounds good.

I do!!

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

spwuinmk67

audiobliss wrote:

I do!!

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

And of course.....the exception

exalted512

we have the kenwood exceleon 25th anniversary head unit and components at our shop. i think the 860 is cheaper, but im not sure. If theyre the same price i would take the 860, but thats based on being a pioneer man and like pioneers interface better. that kenwood deck is solid and def. a good choice.

audiobliss, when ppl spread likes like cam did, other ppl need to put them in their place...nice or not. its ppl like cam why there are millions of rumors in car audio. because ppl spout off when they dont know what theyre talking about, other ppl read/listen to them and take it as truth, then they tell their friends and so on. no sympathy here
-Cody

cam5860

Look im not saying alpine makes the best headunit. far as features and sound quality i would take the kenwood over any headunit on the market right now. Now far as i am concerned pioneer headunits are not all that. I mean they get way to hot for one i know i owned one. I get tired of people saying eclipse's headunits are all that. Yeah maybe they are advanced but they look like ****. What i consider a outstanding company is one that all there products meet or exceed consumers expectations. Pioneer there headunits are the best thing they make there amps and speakers are nothing to brag about thats for sure. I will put alpine upside any company in the industry far as having a product line thats solid all the way through in all areas. No one can really match that.