LSi 15 question

Normanality

Greetings!
After a 15yr hiatus from audio, I thought it time to get myself a decent 2 channel audio setup. This of course included Polk LSi 15's.
I've got them connected (temporarily until my tube amp/preamp arrive) to a Carver TFM 35. Initial impression....Wow! I've heard and was impressed by the LC265i's at my friend SCompRacer's house. The sound is extremely warm, clean and full of detail.
Now, the issue at hand. I'm sure room accoustics play into the equation.
The mid-base is loose and the low bass is at times, muddy and overly present.
I'm wondering if there are any tips for tightening the bass up?
Unfortunately, the position of the speakers is somewhat static (ie. I cannot move them much due to room layout)

The speakers are 12" from the rear wall and 5 feet apart.
The left speaker is 20" from the left wall.
The right speaker is 60" from the right wall.
Currently, my chair is centered 6 feet back.
The floor is carpeted with a heavy berber.

I've tried a few pillows in the corner and behind the speakers but to no avail.
Would plugging up (partially) the bass port make a difference?

I would appreciate any thoughts or suggestions.
Here is a picture of the setup:

SCompRacer

Unfortunately, the problem is the Polk LSi15's. I can help you though. I'll give you $400 and a pair of Infinitys for the '15's, right now. The Infinity's are recently refoamed so you have several years before they deteriorate and need to be redone. How bout dat?

Welcome to the forum Norm! I'm anxious to get over there and hear your rig.

polkatese

Normanality wrote:

Greetings!
Now, the issue at hand. I'm sure room accoustics play into the equation.
The mid-base is loose and the low bass is at times, muddy and overly present.
I'm wondering if there are any tips for tightening the bass up?
Unfortunately, the position of the speakers is somewhat static (ie. I cannot move them much due to room layout)
I've tried a few pillows in the corner and behind the speakers but to no avail.
Would plugging up (partially) the bass port make a difference?

I would appreciate any thoughts or suggestions.
Here is a picture of the setup:

Welcome to CP, you have a very nice setup there! Your observation of LSi15 bass region issues is right on. Plugging the port unfortunately will not make a difference, in my experience. My solution is not optimal, but what I did is to pair it with a REL Stom III subwoofer, to compensate for those two deficiencies you mentioned. The result is very good, but not very cost effective. I let other LSi15 owners to chime in, but sounds like you are facing the same dilemma as I once did. Btw, once I paired it with REL, it has a very smooth frequency coverage, top to bottom. Hope it helps.

ND13

Rich,

Did you hook one of your buddies up with the McAlister man?

HMMM... wonder where the Carver came from...........

Oh sorry Norm, welcome to CP and any friend of Rich is a friend of mine

Nice rig, btw. These guys will get you on your way back to audio nirvana and quickly if you have the coinage

Frank Z

Before stuffing anything anywhere... :rolleyes: ....
Toe-in the speakers so that they are facing the primary listening position, I think you'll be even more impressed with the speakers

Normanality

Thanks for the info! These LSi's are mine to keep so I should make the best of it! It's still a superb sounding speaker. I may try various items of different density in or near the port to hear if it makes a difference but only after exhausting any other options. I'm hoping to avoid purchasing a sub at the present time. The room would be difficult to put a sub in other than center next to one speaker. I'm still playing with imaging and just found if I toe-in the right speaker only the soundfield opens up.

SComp, perhaps not Infinitys but those SRS2's and that Rotel

ND13, it's the other way around LOL. I ordered my tube amp, was so impressed after talking to Peter McAlister for an hour that I mentioned it to SComp. The rest is history

2+2

hey bud...welcome...I struggled ALOT with this midbass/bass inaccuracy issue and have done numerous things and now, I am actually very happy with my 15s and its bass. I will suggest 1st and foremost, get a really high current/watt amp (more emphasis on current) with a hi damping factor. (Some say DF doesnt matter after 150 but I am not convinced). In my albiet limited experience, the biggest tightening of the bass was going to Rotel 1080 amp. In order, tightest bass was Rotel 1080 > HK5800 > HK AVR230 > Rotel 1075. Also, hate to say it but interconnects made a large difference too..bit less than the amps. Some sampling Kimber Tonik>copperheads>knukonceptz>monster ref 100>AR ProII>Ratshack....your results will vary based on your equipment....

All comments above are directed to the bass response of the LSi 15s generally. I am very happy about its response now...it can be attained...
Keep in mind I listen to mostly classical which requires accurate bass, not over exaggerated boomy bass....good luck....

ND13

Normanality wrote:

ND13, it's the other way around LOL. I ordered my tube amp, was so impressed after talking to Peter McAlister for an hour that I mentioned it to SComp. The rest is history

Oops!! Well then you might have very well hooked me up at the very same time, cause I'm looking into a Mc myself

Normanality

2+2 wrote:

hey bud...welcome...I struggled ALOT with this midbass/bass inaccuracy issue and have done numerous things until now, I am actually happy with my 15s. I will suggest 1st and foremost, get a really high current/watt amp (more emphasis on current) with a hi damping factor. (Some say DF doesnt matter after 150 but I am not so sure). In my albiet limited experience, the biggest tightening of the bass was going to Rotel 1080 amp. In order of experiment, tightest bass was Rotel 1080 > HK5800 > HK AVR230 > Rotel 1075. Also, hate to say it but interconnects made a large difference too..bit less than the amps. Some sampling Kimber Tonik>copperheads>knukonceptz>monster ref 100>AR ProII>Ratshack....

All comments above are directed to the bass response of the LSi 15s. I am very happy about its response now...it can be attained...
Keep in mind I listen to mostly classical which requires accurate bass, not over exaggerated boomy bass....good luck....

Thanks! I've already started playing with the interconnects! I love my AudioTruth Lapis X3 between the amp/preamp, and just switched from a set of Tara Labs RSC Reference Gen 2's to another silver wire interconnect between the Marantz and the pre. Time to start listening again!

SCompRacer

Normanality wrote:

SComp, perhaps not Infinitys but those SRS2's and that Rotel

My heart stopped for a moment at the thought of that! :eek:

Normanality wrote:

ND13, it's the other way around LOL.

Thats right. This is the guy that helps me part with money. He brought a trunkful of speaker cables and interconnects over not long ago. He knows the effect each one will have, and with every swap things sound better and better until I just can't be without.

The second Carver I had belonged to Norm. A TFM-35. He was nice enough to leave it here after I sold my Carver to a friend out East until I got the Rotel.

ND13

Yeah, when he mentioned the taras, I kinda figured.

Sounds like we got an old pro on our hands, that can sniff out all the bs around these parts :eek:

BTW, got the manual you want Matt Polk to sign.

Normanality

SCompRacer wrote:

My heart stopped for a moment at the thought of that! :eek:




Thats right. This is the guy that helps me part with money.

Everyone needs a purpose in life

Normanality

Toeing in helped a bit! The left speaker being so near the wall isn't helping I'm sure.

Thanks again!

Back to Patricia Barber for another sampling....

ND13

Norm, you'll have a blast around here, so try to not be a "here today gone tommorrow"
member.

SCompRacer

ND13 wrote:

Yeah, when he mentioned the taras, I kinda figured.

Sounds like we got an old pro on our hands, that can sniff out all the bs around these parts :eek:

BTW, got the manual you want Matt Polk to sign.

LOL Yeah. The Tara's would stay if he wouldn't of brought them PS Audio's over and hooked em up. Not a huge improvement over the Tara's, but enough for me to want a pair. The Tara's put the old Quad 4's I had to shame. And them Lapis IC's......just had to have a pair of them too. :cool:

I appreciate you taking the manual to Polk Fest for me to have it signed. The guy I am covering for this week called last night to tell me his wife made it through surgery OK and is doing fine. Otherwise I'd have been on vaca this week and jump-seated out to MD on a plane or drove there with you. Have some fun for me too, OK?

Normanality

Alrighty! I've been toeing in to different degrees the left and right speakers
and yes, it is much better!
Without having to lug these too much (with the battery cable PS Audio speaker wires attached) what impact does moving the LSi's away from the wall have?
I can come forward another 6 inches, making them 18" from the rear wall.
Or, will closer to the rear wall have an impact? My old Paradigm Reference speakers needed to be farther away, but they had a rear port. I'm not sure
how this bottom port is effected if any....

SComp, just wait until you hear the future Mrs Armstrong now

Frank Z

12" is good, another few inches wouldn't hurt.

heiney9

Norman...Welcome to CP it's always nice to see another guru from Illinois. The Lsi's are a great choice and I'll be following this thread closely when I upgrade it'll probably be to the 15's. And as ND13 (Noel) says...try to be a regular contributor. We have some great debate/opinons/less than agreeable points of view all in the name of bettering our sonic experience.

H9

fireshoes

I like mine away from the wall. Too close and they are very bass heavy and boomy.

RuSsMaN

Nice looking rig. REAL nice.

2 observations.

1. Don't rush to any conclusions on sound, until you've got at least two or three hundred hours on them (and the back end gear you are waiting on)

2. Uncoil the speaker cables. Coiled cables make wonderful antennas for RF/EMI, and depending on the design of the cable can make nice inductors too. You don't want either.

Cheers,
Russ

phuz

Nice setup, and welcome to the club!

Good advice here. I was going to say toe in, move away from the wall a bit, and try different speaker cables.

I had those exact cables. They were good, but you might want to try some other cables. Try out some signal cable, kimber, or other brands to see if they'll clear up some of the issues you are hearing. I found the PS Audio cables a bit heavy on both the high and low ends of the spectrum (not to mention a pain in the **** to work with).

Also make sure you have the polarity right, and are using the proper ends if they are bi-wires. The way PS Audio labled (or didn't label) and color coded the bi-wires is pretty lame and makes it easy to foul up the polarity and high/low connections.

If they aren't bi-wired, tryi it out too.

madmax

I wouldn't worry about any particulars in the sound right now. When you hook up the tube amp it will have very different characteristics. The LSi's aren't the most efficient. I hope you get enough volume out of them with the tubes. If you listen low to mid volume they should be ok.
madmax

Normanality

Excellent advise from everyone! Thanks!

I did raise one leg of the speaker cable so they don't actually touch.
Once I get some more time, I'll wrestle with the python and remove
that loop. I've did compare the PS Audio vs Tara Labs RSC Prime
Biwire at SComp's on his SRS's and it was a noticeable improvement
with the PS Audio. The BiWire is connected correctly black/blue - red/white large to bass, small to highs.


The tube amp is due to ship this week. I have an audiophile friend
running this amp and has used it on the LSi 15's and he claims it
made them sing! It is a Williamson design 75wpc amp. I can't wait
to hear it with these speakers!

My reference cd is Patricia Barber. It's an exceptionally clean recording.

mantis

Ok,
everyone posted some good tips. I will ad and restate what I feel is the problem. It's screaming out in your pic.

1) Break in. You have to break in the speakers before you can seriously listen to them. 100 to 200 hours and they will sound different.

2)The speakers being 5 feet apart. This is a problem unless your sitting 5 feet away from them. Here's the deal with setting up speakers. The distance from the listening area should be the same as the distance between the speakers. When they are 2 close together, they wil sound more monoral and closed. The toe in comments are also what I would suggest. When you sit in your listening area, you should see only the front of the speakers. You should not see any side at all. this is a great place to start. When you become somewhat comfortable with placement, then the angle of the speaker comes into play. Level from side to side and front to back is where I start , then I tweak the front untill I raise it up just off level and this height is figured out by the distance to the listening area.

3) Your gear is your gear. As suggested, the better speakers you own the better electronics your going to need to hear what they can do.

4) Wire is also very important to your overall tone. Matching the correct level and quality wire to your system is cridical.

Good luck with your new speakers and learn everything you can about setup.

Dan

Tritonman

Normanality wrote:

Greetings!
After a 15yr hiatus from audio, I thought it time to get myself a decent 2 channel audio setup. This of course included Polk LSi 15's.
I've got them connected (temporarily until my tube amp/preamp arrive) to a Carver TFM 35. Initial impression....Wow! I've heard and was impressed by the LC265i's at my friend SCompRacer's house. The sound is extremely warm, clean and full of detail.
Now, the issue at hand. I'm sure room accoustics play into the equation.
The mid-base is loose and the low bass is at times, muddy and overly present.
I'm wondering if there are any tips for tightening the bass up?
Unfortunately, the position of the speakers is somewhat static (ie. I cannot move them much due to room layout)

The speakers are 12" from the rear wall and 5 feet apart.
The left speaker is 20" from the left wall.
The right speaker is 60" from the right wall.
Currently, my chair is centered 6 feet back.
The floor is carpeted with a heavy berber.

I've tried a few pillows in the corner and behind the speakers but to no avail.
Would plugging up (partially) the bass port make a difference?

I would appreciate any thoughts or suggestions.
Here is a picture of the setup:

I am assuming you have a relatively square room based on some of the issues you are having so here are some of my suggestions..these also work in rectangle rooms as well.

1) Change the measurements of the distance on your speakers to an odd number. ie instead of 12" from rear wall put them either 13" or 15" this will help with your muddiness. Move them a little further apart towards the side walls if possible to increase midrange. This will also improve your soundstage some as long as you dont move them too far apart.

If you do decide to toe them in..make sure its only by a few degrees at most. To harsh of a toe in would cause your soundstage to be too narrow..imo not good for 2 channel listening. A nice slight toe in helps with early reflections.

2) Acoustically treat the wall directly behind each speaker. There is DIY information to do this very cheaply and still make it look pleasing to the eye and if you have one..a decent WAF factor.

3) Have a friend run a mirror along the side of the wall on each side..when you can see the reflection of the speaker, acousticlly treat that section as well..do the same for the other size.

4) Go to your local guitar center if you have one and purchase a couple corner style bass traps..this will do wonders for you. They are roughly about $30 and I beleive are a dark charcoal.

Good luck.

Edit. I would also suggest eliminating that Cheryl Crow cd..that could be your whole issue *razz*

scottnbnj

Normanality wrote:

I'm sure room accoustics play into the equation.
The mid-base is loose and the low bass is at times, muddy and overly present.
I'm wondering if there are any tips for tightening the bass up?

norm! [/cheers]

ditto break-in, but you're right too. the math involved in low frequency treatments goes something like this, the lower the frequency the thicker the treatment needed to control it. one pillow won't touch the frequencies you're talking about. you'll probably want to start from the floor to several feet high in that corner and add more thickness and/or traps in different places depending on what your ears tell you. bass traps don't always mean less bass, sometimes you'll find new notes you didn't know existed that were largely cancelled or just lost in mud. i find that traps can relax the whole frequency spectrum.

i don't mind them, but if you don't like the look of piles of pillows, comforters, stuffed animals or coatracks and you're the kind of guy that buys(or builds) what he needs, you'll want bass traps.

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=RNWE,RNWE:2005-03,RNWE:en&q=bass+traps

scaling low frequency pipe organ tunes might make it easier to track your progress.

as said above, speaker placement further from the front wall should help and usually brings other good things to the table. but, placement the same distance from the side and front walls can cause problems new problems. though, everyone's situation is different and it might work for you.

toe doesn't work for everyone. if you find some aspect of toe that doesn't work for you, you can apply thinner treatments on the sidewalls at reflection points and then go with less toe. listen for things like image compression into centerstage and gaps between centerstage and the speaks with tunes that have sounds that move across the stage and into its depth like pink floyd 'dark side of the moon'.

take your time and experiment alot, especially after you notice break-in lighten up.

)

scottnbnj

doh! didn't see Tritonman.

)

Normanality

More excellent responses! Thanks!

These speakers have roughly 100 hours on them currently.
I did squeeze an extra 1-1/2 feet between the speakers putting them at 6.5 feet. I also have them 15" from the back wall now. My chair is exactly 6.5 feet away. Today, playing the same Patricia Barber song (not Sheryl Crow ) repeatedly I found if I toe in to a point where they are directed about 2 feet behind me, the image is the most open.
I have a second Lapis X3 coming and will do more comparison testing with the Tara Labs RSC Ref Gen2's and another silver cable.
It's a whole new world from 15+ years ago, especially with the cable technology. Very interesting!

Tritonman

I just hope all of our advice solves your "problem". There is a lot of good suggestions in here. Between all of them you will acheive the sound you are looking for im sure of it.

When placing speakers near walls you never want to use even number measurements. Its good you widened your soundstage..it greatly increases the stereo effect and places your sound nicely in the middle. You should be able to close your eyes when listening to your music hear your music right in front of you. During left or right channel passages you should be able to hear the left and right sweep or vice versa of course. Too tight of a soundstage will ruin this effect and too wide will make it too noticeable, plus ruining your center soundstage.

If possible a nifty little trick is to get hold of 2 cheap laser pointers and get a couple friends or family members to place the backs of the laser pointers on the tweeter of each speaker..then sit in your chair..you should be able to have the ends of the lasers hitting you at your sweet spot to determine the proper toe-in


Now on cables..this is a very touchy issue with people..so i give you my opinion only.

Cables are cables (too a certain degree) Ive read numerous articles on $2,000 a foot cables and $2 a foot cables. I read a very interesting article once on Optical cables where they used a coat hanger vs a nice glass optical cable..both worked exactly the same and sounded exactly the same. Now this is a digital difference and not analog in the copper strand world..but still an interesting article. 0's and 1's are still digital regardless of how they are being sent to the source.

I remember a very famous audiophile (cant remember his name) who has a pair of $55,000 speakers..the wire he uses on them is the orange extension cable you get at Home Depot. Now a man who has 55k speakers using an extension chord cant be all that wrong.

heiney9

Tritonman wrote:

Now on cables..this is a very touchy issue with people..so i give you my opinion only.

You are correct....and I used to think the same way you did until I entered the cable swap program....now I'm pretty sure I was incorrect in assuming no difference could be heard. To each their own. For me the jury is still out but I'm moving closer to thinking/hearing them make a real difference.

H9

RuSsMaN

Toe in?

Point 'em RIGHT at you.

The only speakers I've heard that DID NOT sound better toed in (and I've heard a LOT of speakers), Maggies, and SDAs.

Only thing I have to say on cables anymore, is a one-liner Stu Lumsden (VP of Polk Engineering) told me when I asked him: 'What cables do you recommend people buy?'

His answer?

'Good ones'.

Enough said.

Cheers,
Russ