LSi 15 question

TroyD · September 2005

Eh, what would Stu know.

BDT

SCompRacer · September 2005

I used to think cables didn't make a difference because I never tried different cables. It is said you don't lie to nobody like you can lie to yourself. If I do lie to myself, at least I'm consistent with the soundstage, detail and placement of instruments between the different cables Norm brought over to my place.

Tritonman · September 2005

Well..I will admit I have not had the luxury of trying very expensive cables. The most expensive I have tried are the ole Monster Cables. But I also have not noticed a difference in sq from the Monster line compared to some of the other lines of less priced cables.

SCompRacer · September 2005

I really haven't tried any real expensive cables yet. I started out with using double runs of cheap 14/2 speaker cable with my SRS 2's. $.20 cents a foot. 10 gauge jumpers between the binding posts. My next set of cables were an improvement over those, an old pair of Monster Quad 4's. They are basically made of two pairs of 14/2 but I don't know what kind of wire they used. The next big improvement was a pair of Tara Labs RSC Prime biwires. Now I have a pair of PS Audio xStream Biwires which were not a huge improvement, but noticable. Like it was mentioned, these are difficult to work with due to their thickness, but they can be had now for $250-$275 for a 2.5 meter pair through Audiogon or Ebay. A year ago they were $1k IIRC.

The guy that is building our tube amps says all I need is a good 10 gauge wire to the speaker. But he has been a tube amp guy forever and has a pair of custom made electrostatics driven by a pair of custom OTL tube amps. Makes me wonder if SS amps are more sensitive to speaker cable than tube amps due to tubes being more voltage amplification than current amplification?

He also believes that the difference you get between interconnects is based on the output impedance of the pre amp. I don't know the answer to these questions, but it is interesting to try things and see what difference they make.

Tritonman · September 2005

SCompRacer wrote:

10 gauge jumpers between the binding posts..

So I assume you have bi-wired/jumped your speakers? I have been contemplating doing this with my RTi10's but the benefit just seems to escape me.

heiney9 · September 2005

SCompRacer wrote:

I really haven't tried any real expensive cables yet. I started out with using double runs of cheap 14/2 speaker cable with my SRS 2's. $.20 cents a foot. 10 gauge jumpers between the binding posts. My next set of cables were an improvement over those, an old pair of Monster Quad 4's. They are basically made of two pairs of 14/2 but I don't know what kind of wire they used. The next big improvement was a pair of Tara Labs RSC Prime biwires. Now I have a pair of PS Audio xStream Biwires which were not a huge improvement, but noticable. Like it was mentioned, these are difficult to work with due to their thickness, but they can be had now for $250-$275 for a 2.5 meter pair through Audiogon or Ebay. A year ago they were $1k IIRC.

The guy that is building our tube amps says all I need is a good 10 gauge wire to the speaker. But he has been a tube amp guy forever and has a pair of custom made electrostatics driver by a pair of custom OTL tube amps. Makes me wonder if tube amps and SS amps are more sensitive to speaker cable due to tubes being more voltage amplification than current amplification?

He also believes that the difference you get between interconnects is based on the output impedance of the pre amp. I don't know the answer to these questions, but it is interesting to try things and see what difference they make.

SComp, I feel your pain...so to speak. I'm demoing some inter connect cables right now and man, I'll tell you there are some very distinct differences. I'm actually quite amazed because I've been such a non-believer for so long. I'm sure your experiences are true as some cables make little diff. The ones I'm using are Silver insted of Copper maybe that's why they sound so different

. The more I think I know what's going on the more confused I get. All I can say is if you get an opportunity to try something, try it you might like it, you might not. Evrybody is different every system is different.

H9

SCompRacer · September 2005

Tritonman wrote:

So I assume you have bi-wired/jumped your speakers? I have been contemplating doing this with my RTi10's but the benefit just seems to escape me.

I should have expounded and said "a 10 gauge jumper between the [hi and low frequency] binding posts." Makes it sound like I was shorting em out....LOL

I ran with jumpers first and just connected the two conductor speaker wires to the low frequency posts. The first bi wire cable set I tried were the Tara Labs RSC Prime and I removed the jumper. The next set of bi wires were the PS Audio's with no jumper. So no, I did not try to biwire/jump at the same time.

The jumper I made was made of cheap wire. I never tried a good set of jumper cables or Cardas jumper straps with a pair of good two wire speaker cables. I'm just going with what I have been able to test.

SCompRacer · September 2005

heiney9 wrote:

SComp, I feel your pain...so to speak. I'm demoing some inter connect cables right now and man, I'll tell you there are some very distinct differences. I'm actually quite amazed because I've been such a non-believer for so long. I'm sure your experiences are true as some cables make little diff. The ones I'm using are Silver insted of Copper maybe that's why they sound so different . The more I think I know what's going on the more confused I get. All I can say is if you get an opportunity to try something, try it you might like it, you might not. Evrybody is different every system is different.

H9

This is my first foray into serious audio. Serious for me anyway. Norm has brought over speaker and interconnect cables for me to demo in my rig while he was assembling his system. He has some silver interconnects, AudioTruth Lapis X3's and like you I was amazed at the difference it made over the Cobalts I have. Prior to the Cobalts I had Element Musical II's, but liked the Cobalts better.

Now it might look like Norm gets me to buy his used stuff since we have many of the same cables, but actually the only thing he sold me was the Tara Labs speaker cable. The other cables he would take back home. Id be at the door using a modified line from the restaurant scene in the Blues Brothers movie. In my best Belushi voice I say Your cables..how much for the cables?

I'll probably get into the cable swap program here once I am more confident in my ability to accurately describe the differences I may hear. For now I am buying what I have heard make an improvement in my system. I buy mostly used components to keep the cost down.

Normanality · September 2005

Getting closer! Now I think there's room for the tube amp(with separate PS) and tube preamp. Even room for a turntable. (someday) No more loops in the cable

Lot's of great info! I'm taking everything into consideration, making a list, and will test it out as time permits. I can definitely hear differences in cables.
Right now, I'm in love with Lapis X3's. Nice open, full sound. Since they are silver wires, I grabbed a set of Tara Labs RSC Reference Gen2's. They are much tighter on the bass, but also very laid back.

Normanality · September 2005

Had a good listening at moderate to high volumes.

These speakers are sweet. No fatigue factor at all.

Walked around the room, and yes, a bass trap or acoustic foam behind
the speakers would help. From around 200Hz up, these are very exacting.
I can see why classical music and jazz vocals sound so good.
The toe in helped immensely, as did moving them away from the wall another
6".

fireshoes · September 2005

Lookin' good there bro!

schwarcw · September 2005

Norman,

Welcome to the Forum! I agree with ND13 that any friend of Rich is a friend of mine. Rich told me about a friend with the cables and the Sheryl Crow. Sound like fun. I haven't started to confuse myself with cables yet. I am starting to believe, but don't know where to begin. I am going to get into the cable swap program also when I find time. This is an expensive hobby, it is also addicting. I got back into audio a couple of months ago when I picked up a pair of SDA-2s. I been having a ball ever since.

Again, welcome!

SCompRacer · September 2005

schwarcw wrote:

Norman,

Rich told me about a friend with the cables and the Sheryl Crow. Sound like fun.

LOL That's Norm, the cable guy. Track 10 of that Crow CD gets a workout. I made the mistake of stopping by there on the way to work. I did not want to get out of that chair.....but I had to. Other than the bass issue he is working on it is one very sweet sounding system.

Normanality · September 2005

Alrighty.... just an update.

I've found that using Nordost Red Dawns between the amp and pre tighten
the bass up a bit. They are not as open on the bottom end as the Lapis X3's,
but it's a trade off to subdue the presence of the bass. I've got 2 basic
bass traps ordered (if they make a difference I'll look into building my own)
and that will be all until the tube amp & pre arrive. Then we'll start over

These LSi's are certainly Jekyl & Hyde speakers.
Playing soft jazz like Patricia Barber with vocals, piano, guitar, drums and string
bass, these are the best sounding speakers I've heard.

Any type of electronic music such as Jean Michael Jarre and they are awful.
There is no projection of certain mid to lower frequencies.

I've ordered an analog (analogue for you Brits) meter from Radio Shack to start taking measurements.

It doesn't help listening to the same music on SComp's SRS 2's. They may not sound as smoothe and detailed on the quiet jazz, but they sound amazing on most everything else. Maybe I should have grabbed those SDA 1B's from ND13 but walnut veneer just isn't my style and I can't justify $$ for it. Now, if some SDA 1C's pop up, I may just have to jump so I can do some real side by side testing

Normanality · September 2005

After the debate about whether graphs mean anything or not, I at least had to take measurements using the Radio Shack meter and Rives CD of my room...

I think some bass management is in order looking at "MY" room graph. (no it is not flat)

Normanality · October 2005

I think I've found it! Just introduced 4 GIK244 acoustic panels into my room
and the change in the sound is incredible! There now is detail and separation
in the mid to low bass. Nothing is overly forward and it tightened the bass
right up! I also checked in the room downstairs beneath my audio room and
even at high levels, the bass doesn't boom thru the floor.
I'm impressed and really pleased with the music I heard tonight

phuz · October 2005

Was the pic taken from your listening position? If so, I'd say toe em in more. Like Russman said, those suckers should be pointing right at you.

Airplay355 · October 2005

There are correction factors or something you have to add to the graph. If thats your actual graph it's one of the ugliest things ever.

ANd I have no idea what you mean with Lsi's sound don't sound good with electronic music. I love trance and just about every other genre off of it. My Lsi's sound amazing for trance. Mine need a sub though

cmy330go · October 2005

Normanality wrote:

I think I've found it! Just introduced 4 GIK244 acoustic panels into my room
and the change in the sound is incredible! There now is detail and separation
in the mid to low bass. Nothing is overly forward and it tightened the bass
right up! I also checked in the room downstairs beneath my audio room and
even at high levels, the bass doesn't boom thru the floor.
I'm impressed and really pleased with the music I heard tonight

Is that a parasound dac-1100 I see under your cd player? If so can I get your opinion on it. I have found one used for $275 that i'm considering but just can't seem to find much info on it. Any input you can provide would be very helpful. Don't mean to hijack the thread. Feel free to send me a PM if you prefer.

Thanks Much!

cmy330go · October 2005

phuz wrote:

Was the pic taken from your listening position? If so, I'd say toe em in more. Like Russman said, those suckers should be pointing right at you.

In most cases I agree with the above statement. But I just have to mention that my room and setup is pretty similar to yours, and when aiming my speakers (lsi15s or lsi9s) I by far get the best results when they are aimed at a point about 2 feet behind my head.

Just wanted to give my 2 cents worth.

Nice setup by the way!!!

Normanality · October 2005

phuz wrote:

Was the pic taken from your listening position? If so, I'd say toe em in more. Like Russman said, those suckers should be pointing right at you.

I've been playing with them in and slightly back out. That pic is above the listening position in my recliner, but once fully reclined, it's pretty close!

Airplay355 wrote:

There are correction factors or something you have to add to the graph. If thats your actual graph it's one of the ugliest things ever.

Sadly, that's the real mccoy using the Rives cd and Radio Shack analog meter. Room dynamics make this a tough fit. Behind the sitting position is a half wall with a sloped ceiling (Cape Cod house) Move the chair back and underneath the slope and all kinds of reflections take place. That is my next project....to install some acoustic treatments to the back wall.

cmy330go wrote:

Is that a parasound dac-1100 I see under your cd player? If so can I get your opinion on it. I have found one used for $275 that i'm considering but just can't seem to find much info on it. Any input you can provide would be very helpful.

That's the Parasound DAC 2000 Ultra. I just bought it from SCompRacer. Makes a world of difference on my setup. It expanded the soundstage out from the wall and improved the detail and separation top to bottom. It made a bigger improvement than any of the cables I've tried.

scottnbnj · October 2005

norm! [/cheers], happy to hear your first impressions with treatments are good. i have the cape ceiling thing going on in my listening room too (except it's on one side of the room instead of the back wall), so i feel your pain, but it isn't all bad once you figure out where and how to treat them.

any thoughts on performance with different types of music with treatments yet? it might take cape ceiling and sidewall treatments to get that right. it might be helpful if you aim, first, to extend lf and hf room response closer to the 15s' +/-3 db response. i'd think these frequencies are being canceled by too many strong reflections now, as opposed to them being sucked up by a room that absorbs too much energy.

toe isn't an lsi rule, it just seems lots of folks get good results with it. i always end up finding stronger up-sides with no toe, though, i play with homegrown treatments quite a bit too. that might have something to do with why my results are different.

one thing about toe though, it is important that you have each speaks' toe angle aligned precisely in relation to each other and the listening position. the pic above looks like the angles are off if the pic is from the center of the listening position. i've also found that reflections from opposing speaker front baffles can throw off the image too. i've used treatments between the speaks to make it right.

)

Tritonman · October 2005

Dont forget to put some treatment behind you as well if you have a short distance between the front wall and back wall. This will help diffuse the sound for you so you arent hearing an "echo"

I would also suggest you put something in the bottom shelf of your rack. Maybe a big candle or a heavy ceramic vase or something..im sure the wife has something for you lying around you can put there.

SCompRacer · October 2005

Tritonman wrote:

I would also suggest you put something in the bottom shelf of your rack.

Next week he should have one of these for the bottom shelf. And a tube amp above it.

I got mine first. Neener-Neener.

What a bastage, eh?

Normanality · October 2005

Thanks again for all the great input!

I've got some Sonex acoustic foam panels ordered to use at different spots around
the room. Behind me is the first place, and I'm also thinking about the sloped
ceiling behind/above the listening area.
My tube amp is somewhere in the CanadaPost system, and the power supply
for the amp will take up a large portion of that lower shelf.

What type of treatments are used 'between' the speakers? Even with the
panels along the wall behind the speakers, there is a ton of mud between the
2 speakers if you were to stand there. I guess those panels are preventing/absorbing
some of the frequencies since it doesn't travel into the room.

Normanality · October 2005

SCompRacer wrote:

Next week he should have one of these for the bottom shelf. And a tube amp above it.

I got mine first. Neener-Neener. What a bastage, eh?

Bastage is right!

I think a nice 'Polk Audio' graphic would look good on that plain power supply

SCompRacer · October 2005

Normanality wrote:

Bastage is right!

I think a nice 'Polk Audio' graphic would look good on that plain power supply

Eh? Bastage, eh? Can you tell who I spoke to today? LOL

Definitely need sumptin on that PS. Kind of plain.

I think its fantastic your making gains on that problem. Great follow through Norm. Great advice from all too!

ND13 · October 2005

Cool, you finally got the McAlister. Got it running yet?

SCompRacer · October 2005

ND13 wrote:

Cool, you finally got the McAlister. Got it running yet?

About 30 minutes after it arrived.

I forced myself to take some pics first. Not much time for a serious listen, but my initial impression is it's a keeper. It's been burned in so it sounds great right out of the box. I hope Norm can come out this weekend and help me give it a serious listen. Darn work getting in the way right now. I'll start a thread on it then.

Tritonman · October 2005

SCompRacer wrote:

Next week he should have one of these for the bottom shelf. And a tube amp above it.

I got mine first. Neener-Neener. What a bastage, eh?

Must be nice. *jealousy*

LSi 15 question

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