Jackass of the week...

aaharvel

jet2001 wrote:

no one is asking anyone to conform...

if you want a ratio, we have one....1 black person caught 'looting'...1 white person caught 'serviving'...that's a 1 to 1 ratio...explain that...

I understand that I am armchair quarterbacking the situation...my beef with the issue is that in what seems like an overnight operation we can storm Iraq...but it takes days on end to help our own people. I have an issue with what our priorities are right now. My personal beef is with the President and the federal government. Three situations that have happened in recent years drew me to this conclusion: One, 9/11...the government did an outstanding job...two, Iraq...as soon as the President wanted to go to war, we were there...three, Katrina...it took days on end to help our OWN people. What are our priorities?

Edit to discuss the last post: The state and local governments asked for help...the president declared a state of emergency...it was in FEMA's hands then...their jursidiction.

good post. FEMA should be re-evaluated.

ND13

I just wonder how long it's going to take the likes of a Michael Moore to have one of his so-called "documentaries" out in theaters, blaming the whole thing on the Bush Administration, including the Hurricane itself . I say it'll be in about 12-14 months.

aaharvel

ND13 wrote:

I just wonder how long it's going to take the likes of a Michael Moore to have one of his so-called "documentaries" out in theaters, blaming the whole thing on the Bush Administration, including the Hurricane itself . I say it'll be in about 12-14 months.

say what you want about Michael MOore- i'm not crazy over the guy nor that farheineit 9/11 mess- but his Bowling For Columbine and Roger and Me are excellent. If he does do a documentary- so what? There's political opportunists on both sides. Let them do their thing- the public as a whole will be the final judge.

ND13

aaharvel wrote:

say what you want about Michael MOore- i'm not crazy over the guy nor that farheineit 9/11 mess- but his Bowling For Columbine and Roger and Me are excellent. If he does do a documentary- so what? There's political opportunists on both sides. Let them do their thing- the public as a whole will be the final judge.

I'm fine with him doing his MOVIES, just don't pass them off as "documentaries" is all I'm saying. It is a free country the last time I checked, so he can do whatever he likes, I just won't be spending my hard earned cash on any of his propoganda. I too thought his first two efforts were okay, just didn't agree with all of his viewpoints is all. But the last one was irresponsible and shouldn't have been labled as a documentary at all.

jet2001

I agree about Moore...I lean to the left and won't be offended if someone calls me a liberal...but I refuse to watch Ferinheit 911. I really dislike people making money on horrible situations. If he would have donated all the money he earned from his 'documentary' to 911 effected families, I wouldn't have the same feeling...but we all know that that didn't happen.

hljones821

You should read the threads about this on the Porsche forum I'm on.

ohskigod

Rich guys with sports cars?, you have to post the thread address...LOL

brettw22

I saw bits and pieces of Bowling for Columbine and the one thing that 'missed' the movie was that there was in fact a waiting period for the gun that he got in the bank......was edited to make it look like he just walked out the day he did the paperwork........(per interviews with the actual tellers in the story)

PhantomOG

brettw22 wrote:

...'missed' ....was edited to make it look like...

That *IS* Michael Moore, and it is why I won't watch his "propaganda" (not "documentaries" by any stretch).



i guess the "No Politics on CP" rule went out with the new look, eh?

TroyD

if you want a ratio, we have one....1 black person caught 'looting'...1 white person caught 'serviving'...that's a 1 to 1 ratio...explain that...

I agree, if you are looting, you are a scumbag regardless of race, creed, sex or religion

my beef with the issue is that in what seems like an overnight operation we can storm Iraq

COMPLETE and utter ****. It took six MONTHS for the buildup in the Gulf. It's not like we did this overnight under the cover of darkness. If you REALLY believe this, you are seriously misguided.

One, 9/11...the government did an outstanding job.

No, the CITY (and to a lesser extent, state) OF NEW YORK did an outstanding job. Remember the FDNY and NYPD and Rudy Guliani?? The folks who did the lion's share of work were local agencies.

The state and local governments asked for help...the president declared a state of emergency...it was in FEMA's hands then...their jursidiction

wrong, wrong, wrong......just because you declare a state of emergency does NOT, repeat NOT, absolve state and local authorities of thier responsibilities. The lack of planning and preparation BEFORE the storm hit by state and local agencies all but guaranteed the cluster we've been seeing. Time and lack of interest prohibits me from elaborating further but if you want to curse the federal gov't and so forth, go right ahead, however the scope of failure is MUCH larger than the federal response (which I have issues with as well).

BDT

Mjr7531

Before we all start crying racist (which is quite overused and oversensitized in my humble opinion) You all fighting over the racist part should read this...

Jack Stokes, AP's director of media relations, confirmed today that [photographer Dave] Martin says he witnessed the people in his images looting a grocery store. "He saw the person go into the shop and take the goods," Stokes said, "and that's why he wrote 'looting' in the caption."

Regarding the AFP/Getty "finding" photo by [photographer Chris] Graythen, Getty spokeswoman Bridget Russel said, "This is obviously a big tragedy down there, so we're being careful with how we credit these photos." Russel said that Graythen had discussed the image in question with his editor and that if Graythen didn't witness the two people in the image in the act of looting, then he couldn't say they were looting.

The photographer who took the Getty/AFP picture, Chris Graythen, also posted the reasons behind his caption:
I wrote the caption about the two people who 'found' the items. I believed in my opinion, that they did simply find them, and not 'looted' them in the definition of the word. The people were swimming in chest deep water, and there were other people in the water, both white and black. I looked for the best picture. there were a million items floating in the water — we were right near a grocery store that had 5+ feet of water in it. it had no doors. the water was moving, and the stuff was floating away. These people were not ducking into a store and busting down windows to get electronics. They picked up bread and cokes that were floating in the water. They would have floated away anyhow.

It's good enough for me.

Also... Kay West is an idiot. the only time political comment might be remotely appropriate is at an ACLU funds drive. :rolleyes:
(That smiley is not sarcastic enough...)

jet2001

COMPLETE and utter ****. It took six MONTHS for the buildup in the Gulf. It's not like we did this overnight under the cover of darkness. If you REALLY believe this, you are seriously misguided.

If the buildup took six months then the pre-emptive strike upon Iraq was being planned immediatly after 9/11...which we all know that this is not true. The War began in March...exactly 6 months after September...we were in Afganistan during that time. Your math doesn't work out...

wrong, wrong, wrong......just because you declare a state of emergency does NOT, repeat NOT, absolve state and local authorities of thier responsibilities. The lack of planning and preparation BEFORE the storm hit by state and local agencies all but guaranteed the cluster we've been seeing. Time and lack of interest prohibits me from elaborating further but if you want to curse the federal gov't and so forth, go right ahead, however the scope of failure is MUCH larger than the federal response (which I have issues with as well).

This is also displacement of truth. Once an area has been declared a 'federal disaster' FEMA has jurisdiction. Realistically, the state and local government was in the same bad situation as their constituents. State and local officials did warn people to evacuate and asked for federal aid and troops. Neither came in sufficient amounts and nothing was organized. This lack of a 'game plan' from FEMA is disturbing.

shack

jet2001 wrote:

If the buildup took six months then the pre-emptive strike upon Iraq was being planned immediatly after 9/11...which we all know that this is not true. The War began in March...exactly 6 months after September...we were in Afganistan during that time. Your math doesn't work out...

Since Troy has aready seen two tours of duty in Iraq (or the Gulf Desert)...I'm going to bet his timetable is a hell of a lot more acurate than your guess...

jdhdiggs

:rolleyes:

Yep, the entire US military can deploy hundreds of thousands of troops and thousands of armoured vehicles overnight...

The contigency plans for that type of operation did kick start the invasion, but it certainly wasn't "overnight" If you believe that propaganda, well then, there's really no hope for you to understand the truth of that situation.

Edit:
Dang it shack, you beat me to it...

aaharvel

jet2001 wrote:

I agree about Moore...I lean to the left and won't be offended if someone calls me a liberal...but I refuse to watch Ferinheit 911.

+1. watched it- hated it.

btw- being called a liberal is not a slander. Being called conservative isn't a slander. Don't fall into the trap of the political hatemachine; regardless if it comes from the right or left.

LiquidSound

So I hear people in the media *radio/tv* refer to themselves or others as "liberals", then correct themselves and say "progressives". What's up with that?

LiquidSound

This puts a different angle on the blame game. http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/9/5/234033.shtml

TroyD

If the buildup took six months then the pre-emptive strike upon Iraq was being planned immediatly after 9/11...which we all know that this is not true. The War began in March...exactly 6 months after September...we were in Afganistan during that time. Your math doesn't work out...

Uh, you might want to invest in a calendar, cochise. 9/11 occured in 2001. The invasion of Iraq went down in March of 2003.

This is also displacement of truth. Once an area has been declared a 'federal disaster' FEMA has jurisdiction. Realistically, the state and local government was in the same bad situation as their constituents. State and local officials did warn people to evacuate and asked for federal aid and troops. Neither came in sufficient amounts and nothing was organized. This lack of a 'game plan' from FEMA is disturbing.

Actually, it's not.

Here is the Emergency Management plan:
http://www.cityofno.com/SystemModules/PrintPage.aspx?portal=46&tabid=26

While I have issues with FEMA, read through this and tell me that the city of NO lived up to it's end of the bargain. Also, show me where it says anywhere that once a federal disaster is declared, all responsibility is abdicated by the state and local gov't.

BDT

amulford

I don't see this jerk off going down and opening his check book to "help a brotha out". Oh that's right, he donated his TIME to the cause.

People of all races and ethnic backgrounds have been affected. It just shows what kind of ignorant, uneducated, and narrow minded **** he really is.

Well c'mon Brother Kaye. Hell son with your money you could set up ten families for years.....

prejudiced ****

MacLeod

Troy - Slam dunk!

Ive posted this a couple other times but I feel the need to do so again.

Monday - The hurricane hit and knocked out all communications and all power.

Tuesday - The press and local governemnts started coming back into the city to assess the damage. It was a lot but nothing they havent seen before. The idiot mayor was even bragging about being ready for the Labor Day Holiday. No media reported massive deaths or flooding. Bush declares NO a disaster.

Tuesday evening - The levees give way. This is the time you should start measuring federal response time.

Wednessday morning - Everybody now realizes how bad the flooding is and how many people are trapped. The media starts reporting it and the local government ups their efforts to get people out, then the looting and shooting starts.

Thursday afternoon - The National Guard and FEMA begin arriving.

Thats less than 2 days from when we knew of the levees breaking that the NG and FEMA took to get down there. That aint too bad.

I see no failure of anybody or any agency. And a week later things are getting better. We're already pumping water out. We've evacuated all the citizens that wanted to leave and have them sheltered, fed and given them medical attention. The levees are almost completely rebuilt and the flooding stopped. Parts of the city are opening back up and several businesses have opened up. The oil refineries are gearing back up and the oil prices are coming down. Know who gets the credit for this? THE UNITED STATES MILITARY! God bless 'em! You want something done right and effeceintly, get the troops on it!

If you really have to point a finger at something it would be local New Orleans governement and maybe Louisiana state government. Theyre the ones that decided in order to hold back the **** OCEAN (!!) they would use a pile of dirt and mud rather than a big freaking concrete and/or steel wall, and even then only build it to withstand a category 3 hurricane.

P.S.
I am soooooo sick of the race card. Everytime I hear it I want to puke and it automatically discredits the person whos using it and marginalizes there opinion to petty whimpering

TroyD

The levee issue, I'm not going to 'blame' anyone....it is what it is. This has been a known issue for 25 years.

My thing is the evacuation, in it's emergency plan, the city recognizes that a LOT of people do not have transportation to evacuate. It stipulates the use of all resources to evacuate those who can't do it on thier own. See the pictures of the city buses under water? Why weren't those buses carrying people out of town BEFORE the storm hit? Why weren't staging areas to evacuate folks set up before the storm? Why weren't they engaged on a plan to procure food and water for these folks? These are NOT federal issues.

Look, I hate to get spun up about all this but there are a lot of us 'federal' employees that are working our asses off with regards to this whole thing, for the local agencies to sit there and take pot shots at the federal system is BS.

BDT

jet2001

It's our right and our job as the court of public opinion to judge the federal government and what they do.

A quote from the FEMA mission statement: "to reduce loss of life and property and protect our nation's critical infrastructure from all types of hazzards through a comprehensive, risk-based, emergency managment program of mitigation, preparedness, response, and recovery".

They are finally doing the last thing on the list, but the others were botched big time. To overlook this does no one any good...in fact it will only ensure that something just as bad or worse could happen at any time and who's going to protect and organize? Having worked for FEMA in the past and knowing what they are capable of, this eats at me and I question their leadership.

TroyD

And that's fine, as long as you are applying a realistic standard, which in this case many are not. FEMA is NOT the primary responder to a natural disaster. They coordinate providing federal assistance at the request of state and local agencies.....I'm not saying that FEMA doesn't have it's issues but the mess that we have seen in New Orleans is a failure of leadership at the LOCAL level. Which, again, I only make an issue of because the idiot mayor of NO is running around blaming everyone but himself.

BDT

TroyD

Here is a quick chart that FEMA has that shows who is primarily responsible for what and it CLEARLY indicates that the Federal level is NOT a primary responder......

http://www.fema.gov/pdf/rrr/7-fig.pdf

Here is a link that FEMA has on thier website for state and local emergency planning...

http://www.fema.gov/rrr/gaheop.shtm

I'm STILL looking for the part where it says that in a declared emergency that the Federal gov't assumes all responsibility.

Jet2001, PM me you address and I'll send you a calendar.

BDT

LiquidSound

Does something smell burnt?

TroyD

Well, here is the thing gang, it's not about me being right or you being right etc....It's about being an informed citizen. There is a lot of misinformation out there and people will latch on to selected bits and pieces because it happens to dovetail nicely with whatever philosophy they happen to subscribe to. The really sad thing is that we have a lot of folks out there who are making decisions and forming opinions on information that is incomplete at best.

Me, I'd like to think that I'm objective enough to see things, in and of themseleves, for what they are. In this case, it's really pretty simple.

BDT

jet2001

LOL...yeah, I got carried away with the dates and two years slipped by...but I'll still stand by my opinion that the priority to go to war seemed much more urgent than the priority to help our own people.

In my experience, which is only one disaster, once FEMA came on the scene the state and local governments stood down. The channels of communication was still there, but once the governor requested federal aid, FEMA took over. This was the case in the flood of 1998 in Iowa. State and local governments provided information on the region and space, FEMA provided the rest of the information to the public and did the leg work on helping people. I worked in the Joint Information Center (JIC), which was comprised of a FEMA rep, a state coordinating office, a red cross rep, and a rep from the small business administration. The FEMA rep lead the JIC in all facets, the others were just there to help them get the information out....my job was to make sure that the infromation that got out was accurate. I spent most of the time reading newspapers and watching the news.

The director of the state emergency managment office was involved on all decisions, but it was FEMA's jurisdiction once they were on the scene.

I'm not giving the state and local governments a free ride, but in my opinion, they asked for federal aid, they happened to be in the same bad situation that their constituents were in...their hands were somewhat tied. Plus, in the charts you provided, if they are not able to assist their people, FEMA should be and a state liason will be involved.

This discussion is way off topic...I'm done...you can burn me all you want now...

ohskigod

TroyD wrote:

Uh, you might want to invest in a calendar, cochise. 9/11 occured in 2001. The invasion of Iraq went down in March of 2003.




BDT

Dude, I thought I was going nuts for a minute. hey Jet...uh.....oooops at least acknowledge the error.



edit....oooops, you allready did.

faster100

We should all be in charge of the country, and see how we handle a almost once in a lifetime situation.. None of us are there or involved aside from george grand and Troy D directly or in directly (ie: in the military) So we don't know anything, except what we read or watch on tv.. Lets not all fight and take sides when we don't really know.. Ya think this country is full disclosure and stats and history that everyone seems to want to bring up is all accurate and the way it was/is ?? Aside like i said the 2 members mentioned above which im sure has a bit more info and intel of such things from the source so to speak... then we do. I'm not saying don't discuss this civaly but things rarely stay cival around here and it turns into a pissing contest.

TroyD

but I'll still stand by my opinion that the priority to go to war seemed much more urgent than the priority to help our own people

We can agree to disagree on this point, however, I'd point out that right now, just one example, we've got a LOT of military airlift dedicated to moving folks around the country out of harm's way that would normally be hauling supplies to the war effort in Iraq. Take that as you will.

In my experience, which is only one disaster, once FEMA came on the scene the state and local governments stood down. The channels of communication was still there, but once the governor requested federal aid, FEMA took over.

Ok, this IS what generally takes place (for a number of reasons which is another discussion) however, if you look at the conops of the city of NO and FEMA's own literature, that's NOT what's supposed to happen. State and federal intervention AFTER (AFTER is important) the local municipality has assesed the situation and what essentially amounts to putting all it's bandaids on. The local gov't, essentially, did nothing. Saying that they were in the same situation that thier constituent were in is a cop out at best. The mayor of NO has seemed to have NO problems finding a reporter with a funtioning microphone. Again, where were the shelters, why weren't they prepared with food, water, toilets? Why weren't city buses rolling out of town full of the disenfranchised? Now, was the federal response to all this what it NEEDED to be? That's a legit question. IMO, AFTER the storm hit, IMO, the magnitude of the disaster, almost any response would have been too little too late. Remember, these people were squaking about food and water in the Astrodome on Tuesday; it takes time for the federal wheels to churn and every hour lost is a big deal. Again, a lot of this could have been MITIGATED (not eliminated) had the local gov't followed it's OWN game plan.

I'm done...you can burn me all you want now

Look, cochise, this isn't (as I said) a point of me being right or wrong (although the calendar thing was funny)....it's about US wading through all the BS and finding out what the real issues are so we can be informed and not just sheeple who glom on to whatever pantload someone is trying to peddle.

BDT