SVS vs Sunfire (?)

janmikejanmike Posts: 6,158
How would this sub compare to one from SVS. If possible, could you align this sub with a comparable one from SVS. Just looking at my options. Thanks a lot.

SunFire True Subwoofer Mark II (11")
Michael ;)
In the beginning, all knowledge was new!

NORTH of 60°
Post edited by janmike on
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Comments

  • Pinktulip7Pinktulip7 Posts: 249
    edited September 2005
    :mad: SVS all the way....
    TV :>Panasonic TC-P55VT50
    RECEIVER :> HARMAN KARDON AVR 7300
    FRONT :> L & R :> POLK RTI A9 500 W
    AMP :1> PARASOUND HALO A21 250 W
    AMP :2> EMOTIVA UPA-1 200 W
    CENTER :> POLK LSiM 706c 250 W
    SURROUND SIDE :> POLK RTi A3 150 W
    SURROUND REAR :>POLK FXI A6 150 W
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    POWER CONDITIONER :> PANAMAX M5400-EX
    SUBWOOFER :A> SVS SB16-Ultra 1500 W Front
    SUBWOOFER :B> SVS SB16-Ultra 1500 W Rear
  • VR3VR3 Posts: 23,422
    edited September 2005
    No comparison on a sonic level - if size is an issue... well :(
    - Not Tom

    Vr3Mods.com ///// Version3Audio.com

    "No, that's silly talk. Dude, you can't possibly be this audio dumb so quit the act." - Doro
  • aaharvelaaharvel Registered User Posts: 4,505
    edited September 2005
    I would pick the sunfire if, like me, aesthetics is a primary concern.

    Considering it's and the jr's size I think the Sunfires are sonic marvels.
    H/K Signature 2.1+235
    Jungson MagicBoat II
    Revel Performa M-20
    Velodyne cht-10 sub
    Rega P1 Turntable

    "People working at Polk Audio must sit around the office and just laugh their balls off reading many of these comments." -Lush
  • janmikejanmike Posts: 6,158
    edited September 2005
    I assume Sid, that the SVS sub (either the PB10 or PB12) will blow the sunfire away.
    Michael ;)
    In the beginning, all knowledge was new!

    NORTH of 60°
  • VR3VR3 Posts: 23,422
    edited September 2005
    Any SVS sub, from the bottom to the top will out-do the Sunfire. Even the best Sunfire.

    Why? A good sub is based on a flat response from 20 to 100hz. Sunfire dosn't do this on any of the models. Period and end. The Sunfire if anything will make alot more noise* above 30hz than some SVS subs, but you don't need/want noise in music or movies. You want shear power and force, and thats exactly what SVS does...

    I have not heard one subwoofer other than SVS that can literally shake & shift the foundation for the price. They can do that, while being toned down and setup to do music amazingly - all while doing movies with power. There is not one company that can compare to SVS - the selection, different models, the value you get on the market currently. Yes, Adire and HSU offer similar subs that can run neck and neck. But they don't offer a box, a cylinder, with 3 different tunes and sizes... SVS gives it all to you.

    Sunfire is not a competitor to SVS. Sunfire's competitors are Definitive Technology, Velodyne, and other cube subwoofer manufacturers. However, SVS is working on a small subwoofer around 13" cube to knock Sunfire flat on their butts.

    Subwoofers need a large enclosure with a large amp to produce effortless, powerful bass that extends well below 20hz. Small subwoofers do not do this.
    - Not Tom

    Vr3Mods.com ///// Version3Audio.com

    "No, that's silly talk. Dude, you can't possibly be this audio dumb so quit the act." - Doro
  • aaharvelaaharvel Registered User Posts: 4,505
    edited September 2005
    However, SVS is working on a small subwoofer around 13" cube to knock Sunfire flat on their butts.

    i can't wait for that one.
    H/K Signature 2.1+235
    Jungson MagicBoat II
    Revel Performa M-20
    Velodyne cht-10 sub
    Rega P1 Turntable

    "People working at Polk Audio must sit around the office and just laugh their balls off reading many of these comments." -Lush
  • Dennis GardnerDennis Gardner Posts: 4,801
    edited September 2005
    janmike wrote:
    I assume Sid, that the SVS sub (either the PB10 or PB12) will blow the sunfire away.

    Where have you actually heard the Sunfire Sid?

    It isn't that simple. It is like a high performance small block vs a stock big block. Same HP, they just get it different ways, at different costs.

    Sid is right, that once you get into the bigger designs, SVS really puts the little Sunfire to shame, but they are designed that way. The Sunfire is a niche design as you pay quite a bit to get the small box with a big sound.

    The SVS is a better value if you have the space. Displacement wins out at expense of space at that point.
    HT Optoma HD25 LV on 80" DIY Screen, Anthem MRX 300 Receiver, Pioneer Elite BDP 51FD Polk CS350LS, Polk SDA1C, Polk FX300, Polk RT55, Dual EBS Adire Shiva 320watt tuned to 17hz, ICs-DIY Twisted Prs, Speaker-Raymond Cable

    2 Channel Thorens TD 318 Grado ZF1, SACD/CD Marantz 8260, Soundstream/Krell DAC1, Audio Mirror PP1, Odyssey Stratos, ADS L-1290, ICs-DIY Twisted , Speaker-Raymond Cable
  • janmikejanmike Posts: 6,158
    edited September 2005
    Thanks Sid, you are the subwoofer Guru. I will more than likely end up with the PB12 at one point.
    Michael ;)
    In the beginning, all knowledge was new!

    NORTH of 60°
  • VR3VR3 Posts: 23,422
    edited September 2005
    Like I said, the Sunfire will have more force about 30hz... but its all about the overall response and hearing everything. This is where even the smallest SVS will run over the Sunfire - and then some.

    I'm not sure when SVS plans to release the Cube SVS. But expect to see what a cube subwoofer is SUPPOSED to made like.
    - Not Tom

    Vr3Mods.com ///// Version3Audio.com

    "No, that's silly talk. Dude, you can't possibly be this audio dumb so quit the act." - Doro
  • VR3VR3 Posts: 23,422
    edited September 2005
    I have no interest in hearing small, cube size subwoofers. Therefore I don't listen to them...

    Everyone I have heard over the past years from Velodyne, REL, Definitve Tech have all had one thing in common - NOISE, ALOT of noise... with no force. They just pressurized the air, but never the room. They couldnt move things, just hurt your ears. Never really paid them much mind at all.

    The Velodyne DD18 is by far the best cube subwoofer I have heard. The DD10... or w/e I didn't much care for, it definetely had alot of volume to it.

    But Sunfire is very unimpressive, they operate off a small enclosure with a HUGE amp because its so ineffecient, then you top that off with the fact it has no servo in the design. Which means distortion, alot of it - it takes a large amp AND a large enclosure to do the lower frequencies and they only have one part of the equation... the distortion at lower frequencies would be through the roof on them things.

    Thats one thing about SVS, they use large amps, large enclosures and have a very flat and clean response.

    I have not heard many good things about Sunfire, everyone I talk to just says what I hear with every other small, cube subwoofer.

    While I understand the purpose of small cube subs, if you can go big - GO BIG.
    - Not Tom

    Vr3Mods.com ///// Version3Audio.com

    "No, that's silly talk. Dude, you can't possibly be this audio dumb so quit the act." - Doro
  • aaharvelaaharvel Registered User Posts: 4,505
    edited September 2005
    like Sid says- if aesthetics are not an issue...
    H/K Signature 2.1+235
    Jungson MagicBoat II
    Revel Performa M-20
    Velodyne cht-10 sub
    Rega P1 Turntable

    "People working at Polk Audio must sit around the office and just laugh their balls off reading many of these comments." -Lush
  • Dennis GardnerDennis Gardner Posts: 4,801
    edited September 2005

    I'm not sure when SVS plans to release the Cube SVS. But expect to see what a cube subwoofer is SUPPOSED to made like.

    Your love affair for SVS is clouding your objective view of other brands and believability. I know you love your sub, but don't ruin others chances to experience the search for a sub that meets their needs.
    HT Optoma HD25 LV on 80" DIY Screen, Anthem MRX 300 Receiver, Pioneer Elite BDP 51FD Polk CS350LS, Polk SDA1C, Polk FX300, Polk RT55, Dual EBS Adire Shiva 320watt tuned to 17hz, ICs-DIY Twisted Prs, Speaker-Raymond Cable

    2 Channel Thorens TD 318 Grado ZF1, SACD/CD Marantz 8260, Soundstream/Krell DAC1, Audio Mirror PP1, Odyssey Stratos, ADS L-1290, ICs-DIY Twisted , Speaker-Raymond Cable
  • VR3VR3 Posts: 23,422
    edited September 2005
    Although I do like (don't love, not that large of an attachment) SVS... if I were to come across a subwoofer that bettered it - I would get it. Why not?

    SVS plans to release this cube subwoofer in the $1000 range. And it will most likely to compare to the offering from DT, Velodyne, Sunfire - all in that size and costing a bit more. To me, this is showing other brands on how to make a cube subwoofer. Getting a price/performance aspect that others cant capture. To me - that is defeating the competition.

    If Velo, DT, Sunfire can beat SVS at the same price point - I'll recomend them. Until then...

    There are so many subwoofers to choose from. But a few brands stick out from the rest. SVS just happens to be on the top of the list - they not only offer amazing performance, but they offer it at a price that is very affordable. HSU, Adire, Dayton Titanic also offer subwoofers in the price range with similar performance, but they don't offer the different variables in box, cylinder, size - again, defeating the competition.

    There are many ways to defeat the competition.
    - Not Tom

    Vr3Mods.com ///// Version3Audio.com

    "No, that's silly talk. Dude, you can't possibly be this audio dumb so quit the act." - Doro
  • Dennis GardnerDennis Gardner Posts: 4,801
    edited September 2005
    The reason I commented as I did was that the Janmike was looking for a small size cube sub and evidently could afford it. Sunfire is expensive. The sunfire sub does produce a flatter response than Sid claims. It is done with eq and high power. The design requires this.

    I am no stranger to good bass with my DIY 10 cubic foot dual Shiva, but I will never be so blind to the fact that Bob Carver knows his **** about audio and took an entirely different approach than I did. He does high power small box, I did big ported box that does lots of output with low power.

    To each his own.
    HT Optoma HD25 LV on 80" DIY Screen, Anthem MRX 300 Receiver, Pioneer Elite BDP 51FD Polk CS350LS, Polk SDA1C, Polk FX300, Polk RT55, Dual EBS Adire Shiva 320watt tuned to 17hz, ICs-DIY Twisted Prs, Speaker-Raymond Cable

    2 Channel Thorens TD 318 Grado ZF1, SACD/CD Marantz 8260, Soundstream/Krell DAC1, Audio Mirror PP1, Odyssey Stratos, ADS L-1290, ICs-DIY Twisted , Speaker-Raymond Cable
  • VR3VR3 Posts: 23,422
    edited September 2005
    If you need a small, cube subwoofer.

    Get a Velodyne DD subwoofer.

    He asked whether if SVS was a better value. I answered. SVS is the better value on every aspect except size. And if size is an issue, there are other subs to consider.

    Different strokes, different folks - all that jazz.

    Janmike's exact question...

    "How would this sub compare to one from SVS. If possible, could you align this sub with a comparable one from SVS. Just looking at my options. Thanks a lot.

    SunFire True Subwoofer Mark II (11")"

    How is my response out of line??
    - Not Tom

    Vr3Mods.com ///// Version3Audio.com

    "No, that's silly talk. Dude, you can't possibly be this audio dumb so quit the act." - Doro
  • Dennis GardnerDennis Gardner Posts: 4,801
    edited September 2005
    Janmike,

    Add Outlaw and Rocket to your search for nice box subs that present good value and big sound.

    SVS is the king of all things bass now and are not the "one trick pony" that they started out to be with their cheap tube subs. Tom and Eric responded to the vast majority of customers that would rather have furniture grade boxes in their living room instead of the tube towers. I respect what they have done and how they have expanded their line to include all. They still represent the best value, but sometimes value isn't the only consideration in audio circles.
    HT Optoma HD25 LV on 80" DIY Screen, Anthem MRX 300 Receiver, Pioneer Elite BDP 51FD Polk CS350LS, Polk SDA1C, Polk FX300, Polk RT55, Dual EBS Adire Shiva 320watt tuned to 17hz, ICs-DIY Twisted Prs, Speaker-Raymond Cable

    2 Channel Thorens TD 318 Grado ZF1, SACD/CD Marantz 8260, Soundstream/Krell DAC1, Audio Mirror PP1, Odyssey Stratos, ADS L-1290, ICs-DIY Twisted , Speaker-Raymond Cable
  • VR3VR3 Posts: 23,422
    edited September 2005
    I forgot all about Outlaw...

    The LFM 2 looks interesting, but its like a clone of HSU subs, slightly lower tune and larger enclosure. Very interesting...

    I'm sureprised Dr. HSU would design Outlaws subs so much like their own subs. Then allow them to be styled similarly...

    Also forgot about Rocket, I've heard good things about them! Especially the 10" one - very musical. Won't have the impact for movies...

    There was another subwoofer company...

    Hoosier21 (Russ) was selling one in the FM, suppose to have an amazing response and dosn't cost that much... But I cant remember the name at all... :confused:
    - Not Tom

    Vr3Mods.com ///// Version3Audio.com

    "No, that's silly talk. Dude, you can't possibly be this audio dumb so quit the act." - Doro
  • Dennis GardnerDennis Gardner Posts: 4,801
    edited September 2005
    How is my response out of line??


    Its not. But he didn't mention value either. SVS followers are value minded, which is important, but if price isn't an object, it opens up many more opportunities in todays market. 3 years ago, it was totally different as long excursion drivers simply didn't exist as they do today.

    It is about pressurizing your room for movies with bass around 20 hz, and SVS wins out in the value arena almost every time.

    Displacement is where its at.
    HT Optoma HD25 LV on 80" DIY Screen, Anthem MRX 300 Receiver, Pioneer Elite BDP 51FD Polk CS350LS, Polk SDA1C, Polk FX300, Polk RT55, Dual EBS Adire Shiva 320watt tuned to 17hz, ICs-DIY Twisted Prs, Speaker-Raymond Cable

    2 Channel Thorens TD 318 Grado ZF1, SACD/CD Marantz 8260, Soundstream/Krell DAC1, Audio Mirror PP1, Odyssey Stratos, ADS L-1290, ICs-DIY Twisted , Speaker-Raymond Cable
  • janmikejanmike Posts: 6,158
    edited September 2005
    As usual, you guys offer great value. I am cheap, end of story. But I do like quality. The sub needs to offer the best of both worlds, music and movies without looking like I have added an additional piece of furniture to the room. the box will suite me fine. It is just a matter or 10" or 12". I wish I could get the SVS in Canada without having to pay additional shipping and then some.
    Michael ;)
    In the beginning, all knowledge was new!

    NORTH of 60°
  • VR3VR3 Posts: 23,422
    edited September 2005
    How large is your room? I recomend a 12" as I feel it offers the best of both worlds, the accuracy and punch needed for music and movies.

    Isn't HSU a Canada based company?

    This could be your ticket...

    http://www.hsustore.com/stf3.html

    The only difference between it and the SVS PCi 25-31 and the PB12... is about 2 or 3 DB less in the lower frequencies...
    - Not Tom

    Vr3Mods.com ///// Version3Audio.com

    "No, that's silly talk. Dude, you can't possibly be this audio dumb so quit the act." - Doro
  • jmierzurjmierzur Registered User Posts: 489
    edited September 2005
    BEFORE I purchased my SV subwoofers, I looked at all the local offerings several times. I did listen to the 'super cube' designs and determined that they were not for me. The main factor I disliked regarding the design was the amount of distortion from the equalization needed due to the enclosure size. No matter how many times I listened, it did not sound right.

    The following review lists the measured performance of the unit you are interested in. The output drops significantly after 25Hz. Somewhere I did find a site which included distortion measurements but can not find it at this time.

    If space is a concern, I would suggest that you wait until you can listen to a super cube before you purchase it.

    Considering the amount you were willing to spend on the Sunfire, I would also suggest that you consider a PB12-Plus or Ultra model to get the better driver.

    For a Canadian ordering a SVS produce, you would would pay shipping, a brokerage fee from the shipper and GST.
  • janmikejanmike Posts: 6,158
    edited September 2005
    Yes, I would probably pay ALL of the above. The references that Polk people have provided me in the past will position my decision. You know where that is probably heading.

    And when you guys say "cube, super cube", what exactly do you mean? Is the SVS sub an example of a "cube" sub?
    Michael ;)
    In the beginning, all knowledge was new!

    NORTH of 60°
  • TroyDTroyD Posts: 12,144
    edited September 2005
    Uh, Sid, when have you done your extensive listening to a Sunfire sub? Or, could it be, you are talking out of your arse??

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
  • TroyDTroyD Posts: 12,144
    edited September 2005
    For those interested, here is a link where Bob Carver talks at length about the design of the Sunfire sub......now, if you don't like the sound of Carver's products, that's fine, however, the logic behind them sounds pretty, well, sound.

    http://www.audio-ideas.com/interview/carver.html

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
  • VR3VR3 Posts: 23,422
    edited September 2005
    I don't have a reason to argue with you Troy. Because I know where you will take the whole thing - it is *really* not worth my time. Especially arguing with you.

    You can't defy the laws of physics. And when you try to, it costs alot of cash. The Sunfire subs may be GOOD* subwoofers, but they are doing exactly what a CHEAP SVS does. In the range of what they cost, there are so many subs out there that can use them for foot stools.

    I don't see how you - especially you, can say something is a good product when it may sound good, but dosn't offer the value for dollar of another product. The entire time I have been on this forum, it has been about giving people the advice to lead them to the very best product their money can buy them. If they don't take that advice and buy what they originally wanted. That is ok, we can adjust and help them set it up or whatever.

    I'm not here to recomend a product that sounds GOOD and cost alot of money. I'm here to recomend GREAT products that DON'T cost alot of money.

    Let me rattle your brains with this one, if you can't make a small speaker sound like a big speaker, how do you expect to make a small sub sound like a big sub?

    Thanks for stopping by.
    - Not Tom

    Vr3Mods.com ///// Version3Audio.com

    "No, that's silly talk. Dude, you can't possibly be this audio dumb so quit the act." - Doro
  • TroyDTroyD Posts: 12,144
    edited September 2005
    I just asked a simple question, to which you still haven't answered.

    I'm willing to bet, you've never even SEEN a Sunfire sub, therefore you probably have NO idea what it sounds like.
    Let me rattle your brains with this one, if you can't make a small speaker sound like a big speaker, how do you expect to make a small sub sound like a big sub?

    Going by the published specs in terms of how low the sunfire goes and it's SPL...both look pretty decent to me. But, what does Bob Carver know, right Sid?

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
  • RuSsMaNRuSsMaN Posts: 17,995
    edited September 2005
    There goes Sid, off the top turnbuckle!!! He's got Troy in half smelly nelson!!!
    Check your lips at the door woman. Shake your hips like battleships. Yeah, all the white girls trip when I sing at Sunday service.
  • VR3VR3 Posts: 23,422
    edited September 2005
    I answered your question in the mid-point of this thread BDT.

    I have not seen, listened to a Sunfire. Honestly, I don't want to. I don't need to. Every small, cube subwoofer I have heard ALL sound the same. Bob Carver, although a smart man can not do what a ton of other companies have failed to do. Especially considering his "technology" has been around a while.

    Especially since large motor, magnet structure and high excursion woofers have trinkled down into LARGER subs (ala, SVS).

    Velodyne does the SAME thing Bob Carver does, except they do it with Servo technology to get rid of the distortion that small subs cause.

    Again, I don't search out small speakers, and I won't search out small subs. If I'm ever in a store featuring a Sunfire sub with their glorious price tag of 2-3,000 dollars - I will definetely give them a listen (gives Troy a thumbs up and a wink)...
    - Not Tom

    Vr3Mods.com ///// Version3Audio.com

    "No, that's silly talk. Dude, you can't possibly be this audio dumb so quit the act." - Doro
  • VR3VR3 Posts: 23,422
    edited September 2005
    Since you don't think I know what I am talking about... I will quote someone that does!

    “Gonzo is correct, the Sunfire design uses huge power because it has a tiny enclosure and applies massive amounts of EQ against the natural roll-off to obtain a flat FR down low.

    This is simply Hoffman's Iron Law at work. Sunfire cannot ignore the laws of physics.

    Applying this level of power and EQ to a 10" driver doesn't come without drawbacks, though. THD is much higher at these power input and cone excursion levels. Bob Carver certainly knows this, but he also knows he has a viable niche in the market - the SPL and extension the Sunfire is capable of achieving is remarkable for its size.”

    “A sub like the Sunfire might need upwards of 20 dB of EQ (on a slope inversely proportional to the natural roll-off) to achieve a flat FR down to 20 Hz. Adding that much EQ takes an immense amount of power, none of which increases the overall volume of the sub - it all goes to flattening the curve.

    A sub with a huge enclosure and a naturally low tune point needs no EQ to achieve a flat FR. That's why a sub like Ron-P's ported Tempest can kick out upwards of 120 dB with a 250W Parts Express amp. All the power goes towards volume. Cone excursion is much less, VC temp is way lower, and THD is considerably lower. Sunfire's and their clones work their little asses off in comparison.”

    - Dr. Spec

    http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7557&highlight=Sunfire
    - Not Tom

    Vr3Mods.com ///// Version3Audio.com

    "No, that's silly talk. Dude, you can't possibly be this audio dumb so quit the act." - Doro
  • TroyDTroyD Posts: 12,144
    edited September 2005
    Sorry, I didn't see the part where you said you haven't heard a sunfire sub.

    Ok (and note that I have and am being civil) how can you pan a product you have NOT heard? What you are suggesting is saying that you don't like, oh, a Polk RT35 because you heard an Infinity speaker with a dome tweeter and 6.5 inch driver and didn't like it. It's a silly premise, and frankly Sid, I thought you are more intelligent than that.

    As far as the science goes, read his interview. You can argue with the sound but you can't argue the science. As far as the distortion issue goes, it's a non-issue, again, read the article.

    Oh, and the MSRP for the Sunfire is around 1,500. Not 2-3K. That puts it right in line with comparable subs.

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
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