GAS IS $3.19 as of today. Any one else feeling it?

George Grand

"....the American people have been lied to and abused by big business before."

Thank you Reel, for cutting through all the talk, and seeing this problem for what it is, and defining it with a part of one sentence.

Mr. Mulford, you should've spoken this eloquently on the visits to my home.

It has been less than 300 yrs since our last revolution. SOME individuals, maybe the ones that can afford to pack up and leave when the **** hits the fan, are laying the groundwork for another. You put peoples backs up against the wall on a constant basis, DON'T BE SURPRISED WHEN THEY COME OUT WITH BOTH BARRELS BLAZING.

In no way, shape, or form do I advocate any future revolution, but I'm keeping a close eye on things. I own a gun that will do a lot of damage, but I have never owned bullets for that gun. That could change.

George Grand (of the Jersey Grands)

McLoki

I cannot think of a time when price controls worked as a long term solution. It seems to solve the problem in the short term, but cause shortages in the long term.

Price controls could be used successfully but only as a patch while we work on solving the problem.

Increase supply: Drill more in protected areas where the oil is, build more refineries.
Decrease demand: move closer, better public transporation, more efficient vehicles (that you can afford), etc.

Unfortunately applying the patch (price controls) gives no incentive to fix the problem (supply, demand).

Spawndn72

Say you are some OPEC Sheik selling your oil. You can sell at a market price of $60 a barrel to China, India, France, Germany etc, or you can sell the oil to the United States at a regulated price of $35 a barrel. Where would you choose to sell your oil?

Here's the thing, the Shiek would sell to all of them including the U.S. becasue he has the oil to sell and Germany, China, France, etc can't use all the oil the Shiek has.

Pablo

Wow, seems to be some differences in opinion going on.

On one hand, how many people actually have the luxury of leaving within 3 miles of work. (I did some consulting for Intel, and don't remember enough housing for all those employees to live within 3 miles. I also remember 5 lanes of bumper to bumper traffic sitting for a few hours outside my hotel room). Some of us live in the same place, then find work where it's available. I can't only send my resume to companies within a 3 mile radius. Some people just can't afford a 50% increase in there fuel costs from one year to the next.

On another hand, capitalism is what built this country. If there's a profit to be made, people will make it. Big oil making huge profits actually helps a quite a lot of people. Shareholders, the employees, even your 401k plan may be helped. And once the demand goes down (speculation, what ever you want to call it), the prices will drop down.

One good thing that may come out of this is new and better technologies. It should convince some for us to be more self-sufficient. The crisis of the 70's did a nice thing of bringing us 200hp 4 cylinder engines.

Anyway you look at it, where all going to be openning the wallets.

reeltrouble1

clifselina wrote:

You seem to support the communist philosophy, and we all know how well that worked out. I'll let this go for now, your broom/toilet brush/spatula (or whatever it is you use to make a living with) is calling.

Since your new and dont know me, you have no idea how ridiculous this statement is or the chuckle you gave me and the others who frequent here.

Anybody seen my toilet brush.

RT1

heiney9

ND13 wrote:

Exactly, the head of OPEC just came out a couple of days ago and stated that there was no shortage that they knew of and they would be looking at lowering their prices at their mid-September meeting. The only problem right now is our ability to refine the crude as 8-10% of our refineries are out of commission .

This is EXACTLY the problem. Our ability to refine the crude has been at it's capacity for quite sometime now. We (our govenment official's) have been aware of this for a long time, but no one, including the oil companies have increased the number of refineries. I know there are other factors as well, but this has been a major concern for a long time. Now because of the damage on the Gulf coast we don't have enough refining capacity to keep up with demand. This has been forseen and should have been remedied years ago. Damn stubborn oil companies. Releasing oil from the strategic reserve isn't going to help the fact that it can't be refined any quicker. It think the move is to quell the panic that's setting in more than anything else.

H9

Mike682

reeltrouble1 wrote:

Since your new and dont know me, you have no idea how ridiculous this statement is or the chuckle you gave me and the others who frequent here.

Anybody seen my toilet brush.

RT1

I just got a new toilet brush. It has my initials engraved in goldleaf, has an ergonomic grip and an anti **** stain finish that makes me feel like a pro. Since I use the brush 8hrs a day, the ergonomic grip helps prevent me from getting carpel tunnel.

ND13

YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME, RIGHT!!!!!

Noone here is against making a profit, hell I'm in the car business, but you don't hear of any of the car manufacturers or dealers setting any record profits every freakin quarter, do ya??? Actually, the majority of the car dealers aren't even making a net profit at all and it's has been that way for several years now. The small dealership I work for is a family owned dealership, that actually takes care of it's employees no matter what their profit margin is. That is very, very uncommon in the biz.

Anyways, the oil companies continue to GOUGE us at every turn and set record profits quarter after quarter after quarter. I completely agree with them making a profit, of course, but do they really need to be making record profits??? If it were my industry, which by the way is very necessary for the American way of life, everyone would be ready to string us up. I think it really comes down to the mass majority of the oil companies are no longer American owned, and they could care less about what is happening to us "UGLY AMERICANS", til they need us to watch their backs or fight a war for them.

EDIT- BTW, I would have made the gouge bigger if I could have, to stress my point a little better. They need to show me where a $.62 price hike in an hours time is not gouging.

McLoki

Mike682 wrote:

I just got a new toilet brush. It has my initials engraved in goldleaf, has an ergonomic grip and an anti **** stain finish that makes me feel like a pro. Since I use the brush 8hrs a day, the ergonomic grip helps prevent me from getting carpel tunnel.

Damn toilet elietist. You and your brush are the reason other countries hate us......

Michael

shack

clifselina wrote:

I'll let this go for now, your broom/toilet brush/spatula (or whatever it is you use to make a living with) is calling.

reeltrouble1 wrote:

Since your new and don’t know me, you have no idea how ridiculous this statement is or the chuckle you gave me and the others who frequent here.

But Ted, he is an engineer WITH a MBA! He obviously has firsthand knowledge of how to use a broom/toilet brush/spatula. In my many years of business experience, these are about the only tools most MBAs are qualified to use. And I know he has his MBA. Why?...because he has the THEORY down pat...straight out of the MBA case study... But as we all know...reality and theory are not always the same.

Truth is...there is a lot of blame to go around. Tree huggers, gas guzzlers, politicians (yep...let's spend WEEKS on steroids in sports on the hill...because that is REALLY important), Big Oil, OPEC, etc... I blame them all...but at the present time it is THE OIL COMPANIES that are benefiting from tragedy and natural disaster. They will experience some costs (destroyed platforms, refinery down time) but rest assured...they are not hurting and will show record profits again for 2005.

The upside is that we will get through this as a nation and hopefully do what we do best...figure a way to run our stuff better, more efficient and CHEAPER!

heiney9

Wow........you've managed to upset Noel. That doesn't happen very often.

I'm not jumping into the fray.....there have been some truth to every argument posted in this thread. I really have nothing to add that hasn't already been touched upon. It's my belief that until the hurricane area is stabilized to some extent we won't see the lowering of gas prices. But don't kid yourself they will never be where they were 6-9-12 months ago. Gas prices never return to previous levels completely. Plan on the $$$ of gas being around $2.40-$2.60 after everything stabilizes. Just my opinion of course.

H9

brettw22

I thought it was pretty amazing to see the 12 MILLION pound platform that washed ashore down there.......12 MILLION pounds (or was it tons....either way..........amazing)

ND13

If I knew, for a fact, that prices would never rise above $2.30 to $2.40 per gallon, I would never complain again. It takes some adjustment in the budget for sure, but it's at least "SEMI" reasonable compared to the $3.10 plus that it's at now.

And for the store owners that raised their prices to ridiculous levels the last couple of days, like in Atlanta, you'll get what you deserve and I hope a little more to boot. I hope they lose their business licenses and get some stiff fines. If I wasn't against violent acts, I'd say ..........well, you all know where I'm going!!!!

heiney9

ND13 wrote:

If I knew, for a fact, that prices would never rise above $2.30 to $2.40 per gallon, I would never complain again. It takes some adjustment in the budget for sure, but it's at least "SEMI" reasonable compared to the $3.10 plus that it's at now.

And for the store owners that raised their prices to ridiculous levels the last couple of days, like in Atlanta, you'll get what you deserve and I hope a little more to boot. I hope they lose their business licenses and get some stiff fines. If I wasn't against violent acts, I'd say ..........well, you all know where I'm going!!!!

I'd still complain a bit...@ $2.30-2.40. That's still ridiculously high. My point is that looking at the $$$ of gas over the last 12 months and the related spikes it never goes completely back to previous $$$. I'll guarantee that if 12 months from now IF we actually have excess capacity that the $$$ of gas will only be reduced by a small amount. It seems once we accept paying a certain $$$ my feeling is the oil co. can keep charging an inflated price because a precedent has been set! Until we are able to affect their profits by altering our usage habits they have us where they want us.

H9

aaharvel

bump. Price for regular here is now $3.31. premium here is $3.52

clifselina

Spawndn72 wrote:

Here's the thing, the Shiek would sell to all of them including the U.S. becasue he has the oil to sell and Germany, China, France, etc can't use all the oil the Shiek has.

Yep. He would sell everything to us at the low price, after he serviecd all his other customers first.. The results would be huge shortages.

clifselina

Polk65 wrote:

Ahhh, you lived in Europe. That explains it. I was thinking you are eating magic mushrooms... wait a minute, Schei

Spawndn72

Yep. He would sell everything to us at the low price, after he serviecd all his other customers first.. The results would be huge shortages.

No there would not be. It's not a line were it is first come first serve.

Look in simple terms. The Shiek has 100 barrels of oil. France says it will take 10, Germany wants 15, China wants 30, the U.S. wants 50. Hell the poor Shiek still has 5 barrels left that he can't sell to anyone. That is the reason that OPEC exist. The group got togther to LIMIT the amount of oil that they sold. They were pumping TOO MUCH oil, they got toghther and said look for this stuff to be worth anything we have to limit the supply. If it was not for OPEC the Shiek would have 1000 barrels of oil to sell when then demand is only 95.

clifselina

ND13 wrote:

YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME, RIGHT!!!!!


Anyways, the oil companies continue to GOUGE us at every turn and set record profits quarter after quarter after quarter. I completely agree with them making a profit, of course, but do they really need to be making record profits???

There has never in the history of the world been a better way to allocate scarce resources than to simply allow the law of supply and demand to take its course. Whenever government steps in to interfere, shortages occur and chaos often reigns.

The way to handle the gas panic in Atlanta yesterday was to RAISE PRICES! It's not price gouging. It's the law of supply and demand at work. Today there will be people in Atlanta who might not be able to drive their own cars to work, to doctors appointments or to buy groceries who would otherwise be driving if gas stations throughout Atlanta had raised their prices in response to the increased demand and limited supply.

Let me explain:

As the panic spread, and the demand increased, the prices at the pumps were pretty much unchanged ... for a while. As a result people decided to top off every vehicle they owned .. .no matter how much gas remained in the tank. The predictable result was that stations soon ran out of fuel. The word spread, and more people hit the streets to fill more cars. Today people in Atlanta will find that many gas stations still have their pumps shut down. Throughout the night tanker trucks were busy trying to replenish the stations, but there simply aren't enough trucks to meet this demand. Another supply problem.

So .. what was the solution? For the politician the solution may have been to pander to the electorate by talking about imposing fines on gas station operators who "overcharge", whatever that means, consumers. The real solution, though, was to increase prices in response to the increased demand and limited supply. This is what the uninformed and the political class call "price gouging."

Let's take a look at what would have happened if the free market had been allowed to do what it has always done so well -- when left alone -- and that is to allocate scarce resources. If gas prices had risen strongly yesterday (as they in fact did at some stations) then people would have given a second thought to filling every car they own. If the prices were, say, $5 a gallon, consumers would have purchased what they thought they might need to get through the next few days, and would have started making plans for conservation., Certainly few people would have been shuttling back and forth filling up every car they owned. As a result, the gas that one consumer didn't pump into his second or third car because the price was so high would have been gas available for someone to put into the car they actually needed to get to work.
Keeping the prices artificially low encouraged over-consumption and hoarding.

The truth is that when Georgia's Governor Sonny Perdue signed an executive order late yesterday afternoon threatening heavy fines on gasoline retailers who, as he said "overcharge" customers, he became a part of the problem and not a part of the solution. His statements were a signal to the people that there was a crisis in gasoline supplies, and to get out there and fill up everything they could while he held the prices down. Today Atlanta drivers will experience the results of the governor's actions.

This whole price gouging nonsense was also front and center last year when four hurricanes ripped through Florida. Entrepreneurs abandoned plans to rush needed supplies and commodities to South Florida when politicians started pandering to voters with dire threats of fines and even jail time for evil price gougers. The marketplace simply wasn't allowed to respond properly to increased demand .. and shortages resulted.

Here's an example I used yesterday. Hotel and motel rooms. In the aftermath of the hurricane -- especially Hurricane Charley -- there was a huge demand for rooms for displaced hurricane victims. So, here come the politicians with their laws restricting what motel owners could charge for rooms. The result was that fewer families could find a place to stay. Here's why: A family of four arrives seeks shelter at a hotel where rooms rates are being held down by anti-price gouging laws. They decide to get two rooms when one would do. One room for mom and dad, the adjoining room for the children. Along comes the second family of four, only to find that there are no more rooms. Sorry, out of luck. Now, if prices had been allowed to rise with the demand that first family might have decided to make do with one room instead of two. That would have left a room available for the next family to arrive.

This is a problem borne of economic ignorance. Our hideous government schools do a pathetic job of teaching the very basics of free market economics. The ignorance of the public is then exploited by politicians for votes and support.

And thus it will ever be.

George Grand

If some of the tenets I've heard on this thread are what made/makes America great, why aren't you down there trying to sell water for $20 a bottle?

George Grand (of the Jersey Grands)

ND13

I can't for the life of me understand where you don't think that pricing gas @ over $6.00 a gallon isn't gouging. You can spout all the rhetoric you want to , the bottom line is that is GOUGING, simple and pure in form, period.

And you can go lecture someone else, professor. I'm not some ignorant moron like you seem to dismiss us all as in your last several posts.

H9,

You're right, this does tick me off a tad. I don't like being dismissed as ignorant by anyone, I don't care how many degrees they have. I know what supply and demand is, and I know what gouging is. The only shortage out there is what the oil companies are creating. I guess I can go ahead and put out a little known fact that some of you may or may not know, but here it is:

About 2 years ago, when the prices were starting to creep up on the $2.00 mark, the "Big Three" surveyed, I'm not sure how many, potential SUV and truck buyers as to how high gas prices would have to get to in order for them not to purchase said vehicle types. The average was $3.00. So guess who, also got ahold of that little tidbit??? HMMMM, I wonder. So yes, the public can put alot of the blame on themselves for even participating in such a stupid survey to begin with. All the "Big Three" wanted to know was if the SUV/truck market was going to continue to climb or drop like a rock, before they went out and spent billions on r&d for future big trucks or not. Well, that exactly what they and the oil companies wanted to hear.

AND I'M DONE WITH THIS THREAD, I'm going to take my ball and run home

Spawndn72

Your theory assumes that everyone is perfect and that everyone will behave in similar ways. It also does not take into account greed.

heiney9

The problem with your analysis clifselina is it is very simple. We all know about how economics work, we are all educated and intelligent people here. You paint the picture as very black & white. There are many other forces at work; both that can and cannot be controlled. To simply state: supply goes up price goes down and supply goes down price goes up is a HUGE simplification that simply is not the only reason/mechanism that causes price flucuations. I'm not going to get into a big debate about economics, but it's safe to say most if not all the people on this board know how our capitalistic system works. And right now there is price gouging going on, because of greed, shortage, perceived shortage, or fear and panic. It doesn't matter why it's happening, but it is happening so don't try to BS us into believing it's purely a market mechanism.

H9

brettw22

Creating artificial pricing to try and curb the publics action/reaction is about as unethical as is humanly possible. If that's what you support clifselina, then that says an awful lot about you.....

The bottom line is that the shortages don't exist at the refineries........someone pushing the STOP button doesn't warrant a 'shortage' label.....it's **** with peoples lives, and they are **** for doing so.

heiney9

ND13 wrote:

AND I'M DONE WITH THIS THREAD, I'm going to take my ball and run home

Come on back out and play, Noel

You've made some good points don't abandon us now.

H9

faster100

I have to agree, aside from the well to do that seem to be perfectly fine with gas prices, The people who live check to check is who it impacts when you go from 25 a week in gas to 50.. or more... I'm going to be pulling the plug on my broadband here shortly to save money... cable will be next if need be..


edit: by the way gas is 2.78 - 2.99 for regular today and over 3 bucks for high test..

ND13

heiney9 wrote:

Come on back out and play, Noel

You've made some good points don't abandon us now.

H9

Okay, just for a little longer, before mommy calls me in to eat and take a bath .

Did you notice that I never reverted to name calling, except the professor part.

Really, I know where he's coming from, but theories and the real world mix about as well as oil and water.

F1nut

So .. what was the solution? For the politician the solution may have been to pander to the electorate by talking about imposing fines on gas station operators who "overcharge", whatever that means, consumers. The real solution, though, was to increase prices in response to the increased demand and limited supply. This is what the uninformed and the political class call "price gouging."

Someone has been out in the New Mexico sun a wee bit too long.

reeltrouble1

shack wrote:

But Ted, he is an engineer WITH a MBA! He obviously has firsthand knowledge of how to use a broom/toilet brush/spatula. In my many years of business experience, these are about the only tools most MBAs are qualified to use. And I know he has his MBA. Why?...because he has the THEORY down pat...straight out of the MBA case study... But as we all know...reality and theory are not always the same.

You know it Steve, education is a wonderful thing, although it leaves you lacking in experience, the real trick though is to not repeat the same year's experience over and over again. Its a long way from New Mexico to Santa Clara, Ca. so the fellow as his own rungs to climb etc. Six of my staff have MBA's, they do OK but damm they sure know how to whine.

Now where did I put that spatula!!

RT1

polksda

clifselina wrote:

Free market pricing allocates goods to those that value them the most. You are acting as though you had some right to goods at below market value.

Ummm... the only problem is that with gasoline, it is NOT a free market. All the stations raise and lower their prices in lock step with one another; the prices are fixed at the highest level.

If it were truly a competitive market, one station or brand or distributor, whatever, would keep their prices down to gain market share. After all, it's not like the costs of the gas that is already in their system magically went up. It's only FUTURE acquisitions that *may* cost more.

As much I abhor government intervention, something needs to be done.

The analogy of milk, sneakers, whatever, is completely useless, because in the case of gasoline, the consumer has NO alternative. There isn't another source that the consumer can go to. The prices are being fixed for the sake of profit, and it is the furthest thing from a free market.