Million Dollar Baby Sounds Awful On LsiC

jrlouie

Anyone else watch this movie on an LsiC and experience this? I watched it for the first time last night and Morgan Freeman's and Clint's voice both sounded really hollow. I also tried setting the center to Large and that seemed to help a little.
I've struggled with this center as some others have too. I've been through all the other posts and seen some others express the same.

Just curious if anyone else especially disliked it on this movie.

Frank Z

Is your LSiC angled toward the primary listening position? Have you calibrated your system with an SPL Meter?

The movie sounded great on my system.

jrlouie

Yeah, I've calibrated, moved, etc. It used to be pointing at seated position, but for the heck of it I tried laying it flat on top of TV and it sounded better so that's where it is for now. I've posted about the center before. Probably should've mentioned that in my first post. Sorry.
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21879

Just thought I'd ask regarding this movie. Hmm, irritating it sounds great on yours. I wish it did on mine. Maybe I'll do some more tests this evening since I have a troublesome movie to "troubleshoot"

aaharvel

it's the mix. Does the same thing on my csi3.

McLoki

I watched it a while back. It seemed fine on my system. I do not own it so I cannot check it again with your comments in mind, but I don't remeber it sounding bad.

My LSiC is very high off the ground (about 1.5-2.0 feet from the ceiling) and pointed down at the listening position.

What is your LSiC crossed over at? (if you cannot change it, it is probably at 80hz - that is what my 777 crosses over at and I cannot control it other than setting the speaker to large) Both Morgan freeman and Clint Eastwood have pretty deep voices. I would be tempted to start the search for your problem by looking at your sub and its integration into your sound system. (evidenced by it sounding better when you set the speaker to large bypassing the sub)

Michael

wingnut4772

I never liked the lsiC. I sold it and replaced ti with a single Lsi9 and I am very happy.

jrlouie

Yeah, it's crossed at 80Hz. No ability to adjust it. I'm kind of liking it set to large. Seems like it may help get that second driver going. Also, when watching movies I don't even use a sub. My towers are enough bass for me. So I just turn off the sub in the AVR config therefore (when the center is set to small) anything below 80Hz should be going to the towers.

I wish I had a buddy that had a Lsi9 to try. Curious to give it a shot. But not a big deal. I'll keep it in mind in case I run across one.

Frank Z

Why not just order an LSi9 crossover from Polk and swap 'em out?

jrlouie

Would cabinet size have an effect too? I know the Lsi9's dimensions are different.
How hard is it to swap out the crossover? Soldering involved? If so, count me out.

wirebill

Hello Jrlouie,
I have the LSiC about two years now. When I first heard it I was a little disappointed too. It seemed that the left speaker was never working. I contacted a company that I found on the Internet and had them build a new crossover for me. It cost less then $40.00 and was worth every penny. Both 5 ½” speakers are crossed at the same frequency now. I can hear movie dialogue much better now. I saw “Million Dollar Baby” and I don’t recall the problems that you described. I still have the information on the company that built the crossover if you are interested.
Good Listening,
Bill G

scottnbnj

what have you done with bass traps, other treatments and speaker/listening position placements? what were the results?

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wirebill

Scottnbnj,
Unfortunately my “home theater” is also my living room, so I have done nothing with sound treatments or seating positions. I did angle the center channel up slightly and at one point I had it sitting on top of the television. I still had the problem understanding dialog. It always seemed to me that only one of the drivers was working. Other center channel speakers that I had or had heard always had both drivers working so I had a crossover made that did just that and it made a big difference. Why do you ask about treatments?
Bill

polkatese

I have my LSiC for the past 3 years, and always thought that it sounds clear on movie dialogs. A couple of months ago, after I re-calibrated the system, I adjusted the Center channel with +2db hotter setting (relative to the rest of the setup) and it actually sounds better. give it a try and see if it helps your setup.

jcaut

Not to derail this-- I don't own an LSiC, so I have no comment about its performance-- But it seems to me that there's a lot of confusion about "one driver not working" thing. It's not that one driver is not working; It's that one is intentionally low-pass filtered at a lower frequency than the other one. That means one midwoofer might reproduce sound from the lowest bass it can reproduce, up to say, 500Hz (just for the sake of discussion), after which it is filtered to produce a drop in response of, let's say -12db/octave. The other midwoofer is filtered such that it produces sound from the lowest bass up to 2.5kHz, or wherever it crosses over to the tweeter. One will be perceived as being much louder than the other one, but they both work. Polk calls it something like "cascade tapered array", but it is essentially a 2.5-way design.

Without going into too much technical talk, it's done that way to reduce the lobing and frequency cancellation that would occur when two drivers are reproducing the same frequency and are located further apart than the wavelength of the frequency they're reproducing.

A properly designed 2-way (meaning both midwoofers are reproducing the same frequencies) MTM speaker should have the woofers center-to-center spacing, close to the wavelength of the crossover frequency. It also helps if the tweeter is offset some distance from the centerline. They are designed to be VERTICALLY oriented. MTM's are trendy right now, and I think that accounts for more of the reason they're so common than the actual benefits of that particular driver orientation. The main benefit of the design is it's symmetrical horizontal radiation pattern. When you turn the design on its side, as you would for the traditional center channel use, you get good symmetrical response on the VERTICAL axis, but lobing and the resulting very small sweet spot on the horizontal axis. I guess that could be considered a benefit, if you always sit directly on the horizontal centerline of the speaker, but have it located significantly above or below your listening position.

Anyway though, that's why quality center channel speakers that use two or more midwoofers with a tweeter in the middle, generally use a 2.5-way crossover. Of course I'm not trying to tell anyone what sounds good: I'm just trying to clear up the apparent confusion over the "one driver is louder than the other" "problem".

Sorry for the length!
Jason

wirebill

Jcaut,
I talked with polk when I first bought the LSiC and they told me about the "cascade tapered array" and I personally don’t like it.
I guess I should have said that you get very little information from the left driver. I knew that it was working and I could hear it whenever I played music, but while watching movies I had a problem with the dialogue. I owned the cheaper CS40i and had no problem hearing it and that is why I had the 2-way crossover made. I am aware that the 2.5 way crossover is a better design, but be that as it may, I find that I hear it better with the 2-way crossover and that I have a wider sweet spot.
Thanks,
Bill G

Willow

aaharvel wrote:

it's the mix. Does the same thing on my csi3.

I have the csi3 and didn't have any probs. When I get a chance I will watch part of it again and see, I'll report back

scottnbnj

wirebill wrote:

Scottnbnj,
... Why do you ask about treatments?

bill i'm no treatment, placement or ht expert, i just like to listen to 2 channel and have spent some time with lsi9's. from the pics and other threads, to me it looks like jrlouie's problems are likely caused by strong reflections.

treatments and/or placement changes can be used to control reflections and resonances. from what little i know and have experience with, i believe that hardware chain fixes might make room acoustics problems less noticeable, but don't fix them and are likely to create other problems.

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wirebill

scottnbnj,
I recently bought a new pair of LSi9s and I’m still breaking them in. I did notice that they need to be 10 to 12 inches off the back wall or they sound too boomy. They also sound a little boxy. Did you also find this and if so does the boxy sound go away?

Frank Z suggested to Jrlouie that he should replace his crossover with one from an LSi9. If you compare the crossover specs for the LSiC and the LSi9 they appear to be the same crossover, so I would ask someone at Polk before buying one.

Frank Z

The crossover's are different, Polk C.S. has answered this question here numerous times.

wirebill

Frank Z,
Thanks for the info, I guess you learn something new every day.

scottnbnj

wirebill wrote:

scottnbnj,
I recently bought a new pair of LSi9s and I’m still breaking them in. I did notice that they need to be 10 to 12 inches off the back wall or they sound too boomy. They also sound a little boxy. Did you also find this and if so does the boxy sound go away?

they will change with break-in. there are several threads archived here that go into some detail.

for whether boominess and boxiness completely go away, i think that's going to depend on your frame of reference and your ability to work the room and hardware to get the best out of them. for me though, when my placement, treatments and tunes are all on the same page, i don't find them boomy or boxy.

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mantis

More and more concerns with the LSIC. I never had any problems or dislikes but man I read about it alot.

It's got to be a setup problem or not a good enough amp to drive it. Maybe I missed something when I owned Lsi.

Very intresting reading about it.

I know for a fact that the LSic sounbs like **** on receviers. As well as all the other speakers. Not saying this is your problem but thinking with my fingers.

Dan

scottnbnj

i don't know. i only have 2 channel lsi9's, but i try to imagine how they'd sound with those close placements to that cut up brick front wall, so close to the windows and gear. i just have my doubts that it would be pretty.

i'm thinking cancelation is the main culprit, and booming from being close to brick corners reinforcing it or highlighting the loss. but, obviously, it's hard to tell for sure from here (nj).

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wirebill

scottnbnj
I have 2 Cinepro, 3K6 SE Gold amps (6 channels each) that are rated at over 800 watts/channel at 4 ohms, so I don’t think that power is the problem. I’m not saying that I had a problem with my LSiC, I just didn’t like the crossover that left no dialogue coming out of the left speaker. With the new crossover I have a wider “sweet spot” and I like it better, in fact I am very happy with it now.

McLoki

wirebill wrote:

scottnbnj
I have 2 Cinepro, 3K6 SE Gold amps (6 channels each) that are rated at over 800 watts/channel at 4 ohms, so I don’t think that power is the problem.

I have a Cinepro 3k6 mk1 (first generation) and I love it. Glad to see another Cinepro user at Club Polk. Until you hear one, it is hard to believe how great the Cinepro amps are.

Michael

wirebill

Michael,
I can’t agree with you more. The cinepro amps have unbelievable power and clarity.
I went to CES in New York and in my opinion Cinepro stole the show.

Bill

scottnbnj

woops, sorry to dig up an old thread, but i missed this reply to me.

wirebill wrote:

scottnbnj
I have 2 Cinepro, 3K6 SE Gold amps (6 channels each) that are rated at over 800 watts/channel at 4 ohms, so I don’t think that power is the problem.,...

bill, y'all have fine gear. i didn't say that the amp was your problem.

wirebill wrote:

...I’m not saying that I had a problem with my LSiC,...

bill, though you said that before you changed the crossover you were "disappointed" and that you "...had the problem understanding dialog..." several times, in addition to other details, just the same, i did not say that you had a problem with your lsic either.

i just added, humbly, that i don't believe that hardware fixes fix room acousitics problems... and that this thread looks and sounds more like room acoustics problems than anything else.

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wirebill

Scott,
Please rest assured that I was not offended by anything that you said.

I did indeed say that I was disappointed in the dialogue coming from my LSiC and I agree with you that hardware will not fix an acoustics problem. I don’t know what the problem was but I know that I didn’t have it with my previous center channel and I don’t have the problem now after changing the crossover. Also for whatever reason I have heard a lot of the same complaints about the LSiC from others.
Thanks,
Bill G