Ouch!

LuSh

As per usual I agree with F1nut.

There is alot of snake oil in the business that's for sure. There are probably more AC/cable companies in highend audio now then there are speaker/amp/source companies combinded. Do a search on Audiogon's used cable listings if you think I'm wrong. BUT there are also ways of improving systems that don't make alot of technical sense, which mistify most flatearthers-techinical types. I trust my ears, always have always will.

Almost 20 years ago techies ran with hardon's to their stereo shops in the search of "perfect audio" and bought CD players that were technically better then Vinyl, we all know how that went down 20years later. The double blind test is a joke.

F1nut is right, bring those tech's to my house, in my enviroment, I'll let them do what ever they want, but I know my system and if you change an interconnect, I'll hear it. I have a system that has enough resolve now to allow me to hear it. I have bought a few aftermarket powercords, a $500 Moray James and an cheaper XLO one. I did not hear a difference, I heard a slight tonal character change on the Moray one, but I honestly couldn't tell if you took it out. I got both cables at cost. Even though I haven't heard personal differences I have several friends and family members who have stated that they've heard quite large differences. They use much higher resolution Audio systems and I believe them. I however won't be buying another power cable anytime soon. That's not to say I discredit them. I simply haven't heard them, and if down the road I hit a point where I think it makes sense and that's all that's left, I'll try it again.

I have heard HUGE differences when using a Moray James Digital cable that passes simple "1's and 0's" in comparision to other digital interconnects from Harmonic Technology's. Whenever I meet a tech/math whizz I don't even bother engaging in the arguement, life's too short. I simply let him go home listen to his "perfect sound" entry level CD player because digital is digital and he has the spec's to prove it. This player is usually connected to his pro-audio amp that is spec'd much higher then mine, and delivers the same quality of sound because "amp's are amp's the NRC proved it years ago, I can show you the Sound and Vision article" connected with a simple 75 Ohm black coax cable, to his rather large effiecient speakers that are rated at 96db and offer "crips highs and tight bass", which are wired with standard 12 gauge wiring because "after 12 gauges and proper shielding speaker wire is speaker wire"

In the end were all different. I like to use my ears, others like to read books and explain things to people who use ears so they don't have to I guess. All I can say in closing is, don't knock it untill you try it.

F1nut will agree with me on this, not even 6months ago you'd have a hard time convincing people on this forum that source players even made a difference let alot a large difference. Now all of a sudden I see a post a week on upgrading sources and or DAC's. It's sometimes funny to see things change when people actually get their "ears" dirty and listen to stuff instead of using their eyes and hands to explain sound. You can never use math or a tech sheet to explain sound. I think a big reason for this is because alot of what's on spec sheets are virtually useless or have been figured out long ago, and really aren't concerns anymore. There are probably much more important issues to contend with that engineers aren't even aware of, or have had time to fully explain or tackle. An interesting listening test would be to take a reference cost no object stereo system from the late 80's that was spec'd as well as the one from today and play it in a room. Not having done this I can only guess, but my guess would be that todays system would be lightyears away in terms of tone, imaging, resolve and 3-D accuracy. Even if the papers in the boxes didn't say so.

dragon1952

Originally posted by WilliamM2
If there really is a difference, there's no reason it would have to be your own equipment, in your own house, with your own music. Something like that would be too easy to rig.

It's not like they have to identify which cable is which, or which is better, just correctly identify when it has changed. Shouldn't be that hard, since most believers claim to hear HUGE differences with different cables, so much so that they can no longer live without them.

And I was mainly refering to power cables.

Oh Ye of little faith (and experience) :rolleyes:
Actually people that report huge differences with power cables are suspect although I guess the term 'huge' is subjective in itself. Decent differences to positive subtle differences for sure though. I seriously don't think the majority report huge differences though. Huge to me is like the difference in a Yugo and an BMW M3 though.

F1nut

Originally posted by WilliamM2
If there really is a difference, there's no reason it would have to be your own equipment, in your own house, with your own music. Something like that would be too easy to rig.

It's got nothing to do with rigging anything and to tell you truth I'm not even sure why you would think of something like that.

Haven't you ever heard a set up that at first sounded really good, but after listening awhile you start picking out things that you don't like? My point, one needs to be familiar with the gear, room and music before being able to critique it. Yet, these double blind tests are done without a base reference. You have to have a base reference to have a valid test. That's the basis of even the most elementary scientific experiment.

As Lush stated, (yep, agree with your comments too) one has to have a set up with enough resolve to be able to hear differences when pieces are changed. I can't say what it takes to achieve a set up with enough resolve, but you'll know it when you get there.

dragon1952

Originally posted by F1nut
IHaven't you ever heard a set up that at first sounded really good, but after listening awhile you start picking out things that you don't like?

Ex-freakin-xactly!

shack

I gave up a long time ago trying to convince ANYONE that any sort of cable (IC, speaker, power) makes a difference even though I have done blind tests and proved it to myself. By the same token I'm getting weary of all the naysayers that want to tell me that I don't know what I'm hearing and that it is all wishful thinking.

So for all of you cable skeptics that want to tell me how wrong I am....

Just leave me the F*** alone! I'll do the same! I'm out!

amulford

Originally posted by ninerbj
Really? I didn't know you guys did a blind test with cables last time.
Were the results of these test ever in one of the threads...cause I am having a hard time finding it.

You don't have to be blind to hear....;) We do check out different cables, gear, speakers.

Hey, I was a non-believer. Now I know. Those that don't know, don't know that they don't know.

WilliamM2

Oh Ye of little faith (and experience)

No experience? How can you know this? Audio has been a hobby of mine for 30 years now, I have heard quite a few cables in that time. I used my ears to come to my conclusion.

I still buy decent cables, because I like the build quality, shielding, and reliability. If I did hear a difference between them, I would assume something was wrong with one of the cables.

But hey, If you enjoy them, great. That is what it's supposed to be about.

ezc

Simple solution, if you don’t believe in the upgraded power cables Don’t Buy One! No one forces you to purchase or use one so if you don’t hear any difference or see any difference just don’t buy one. I do see & hear a difference & I do use them. It’s like running my racecar with a 5/16 fuel line instead of duel ½ inch lines. The car will run with the 5/16 line but will never run its best & we will suck the bowls dry, but the car will run. With one ½ inch line the car probably would still run the numbers but why risk it by splitting one line to four lines at the motor, hell just feed the motor all the fuel that it wants one line per carb, same with my A/V equipment. I have dedicated 15 – 30 amp circuits for almost each component which is wired with duel 10awg to each audio grade outlet & I use better power cords to feed my system all the ac current it can use. My system would work on one 15amp circuit wired with 14/2 & a standard outlet but never reach its potential. With the upgraded circuits, outlet & cords my system performs at its best it can, just like the racecar. I may be crazy & spend way too much, but its up to you what an improvement is worth.

F1nut

Originally posted by WilliamM2

If I did hear a difference between them, I would assume something was wrong with one of the cables.

Hmmmmm.........you know, I've read that exact same sentence somewhere before.


A few thoughts........

Maybe it's your gear, maybe not. What are you running?

Maybe it's your attitude, maybe not. Then again with a comment like above..........

TroyD

I'm as skeptical as they come but anyone that wants to come buy and swap out the Signal Cable power cord on my Jolida CD player with the stock one and tell me there is no difference, c'mon by. I'll even feed you dinner and a few beers.

Everyone at SC Polkfest sure as hell heard it too.

BDT

unc2701

As someone who has some expensive cables and some really expensive amps, I obviously believe it makes a difference, but I really don't take offence to the skeptics. Why? Becuase there's not a single published account of someone being able to consisently distinguish between cables. So we an say that it makes difference till we're blue in the face, but none of us has managed to demonstrate it. You gotta admit that scores one for the "no difference" crowd.

Anyhow, I do statistics and design studies for a living, so if anyone wants to take up the believers, I'll be happy to run the numbers. Personally, I know better than to put my money on the line.

madmax

I have to say that on the power cord issue I was somewhat an unbeliever at first. Buying a lot of used equipment I ended up with some good cables thrown in. What the heck, it looks cool anyway, right? I'll also say that if you don't have a power conditioner you may miss some of the benifits but not all of them. A nicely shielded cable still rejects noise which is close to the equipment even though you have long lengths of standard house wiring from there on out.

All that said I took a few hours one day and played with them. I think I had three different cables at the time. I played one small portion of a song over and over and over. I memorized where all of the sounds were and exactly what everything sounded like. I then moved the cords around to the different components. (CD transport, dac and preamp). The amp cable stayed the same throughout. What I noticed was that some of the sounds had a different timbre to them and the soundstage changed slightly. I really tried to keep the on/off times of the equipment the same and to not move anything around except the power cables themselves. Precision of keeping to a procedure is extremely important for stuff like this.

To me this is enough proof that things changed at least. Which was the better configuration of the cords? Obviously it was left up to what I wanted to hear but there was a definite sequence I enjoyed more than the others.

Kinda freaky if you ask me...

madmax


Edit: Hmmmm. I should make a list of power cables and add it to my sig since they do help create the system.

dragon1952

Originally posted by WilliamM2
No experience? How can you know this?

Sorry....it was just a guess.

dragon1952

Originally posted by F1nut
Hmmmmm.........you know, I've read that exact same sentence somewhere before.

Yeah....me too :rolleyes: Seems to be a popular myth that if cables don't sound identical one must be broken.

ninerbj

UNC2701

I dig what you are saying. I noticed you have Bryston amps..VERY nice!
I pulled the following from the Bryston websight.....

A/C POWER CABLES
When you plug your power cord into the wall outlet you are in 'SERIES' with all the wire on the other side of the wall all the way back to the power source. The small length of power cord from the wall to the amp is insignificant compared to the miles of wire it is connected to. As long as the power cord can deliver the current and voltage required to drive the amplifier to full power it is as good as it can get.

http://www.bryston.ca/cablememo.html

dragon1952

Originally posted by ninerbj
As long as the power cord can deliver the current and voltage required to drive the amplifier to full power it is as good as it can get.

I couldn't help but notice that they never really mentioned if there's can do that or not

unc2701

yeah, theirs can handle it. There's not much on bryston amps that isn't over-engineered. All the capacitors are 105 degree (celcius) rated... seriously- who the hell is going to run their amp that hot???

F1nut

If Bryston thought so highly of their generic power cords they wouldn't have a IEC socket on the **** end of their gear, eh?

amulford

Originally posted by F1nut
If Bryston thought so highly of their generic power cords they wouldn't have a IEC socket on the **** end of their gear, eh?

Touche

heiney9

Don't wanna hi-jack this thread, but I love bagels especially toasted bagels. I recently upgraded the power cord on my toaster, man what a difference!!! Very even toasting done at the perfect temp. Just the right amount of crunchiness and chewiness. I think my power chord cost like $150, but it was worth every penny. I'm eating one of those fabulous bagels right now. Mmmmm tastey!!!

:eek:

H9

P.S. This is meant to be humorous because this thread was getting to be a bit to serious.

ninerbj

LMAO!!!

Thanks Heiney...I just blew snot!

Skynut

Originally posted by heiney9
Don't wanna hi-jack this thread, but I love bagels especially toasted bagels. I recently upgraded the power cord on my toaster, man what a difference!!! Very even toasting done at the perfect temp. Just the right amount of crunchiness and chewiness. I think my power chord cost like $150, but it was worth every penny. I'm eating one of those fabulous bagels right now. Mmmmm tastey!!!

:eek:

H9

P.S. This is meant to be humorous because this thread was getting to be a bit to serious.

A power conditioner would help the heat stay at a constant temp. therefore creating an even toasting experience.

dragon1952

Originally posted by heiney9
Don't wanna hi-jack this thread, but I love bagels especially toasted bagels. I recently upgraded the power cord on my toaster, man what a difference!!! Very even toasting done at the perfect temp. Just the right amount of crunchiness and chewiness. I think my power chord cost like $150, but it was worth every penny. I'm eating one of those fabulous bagels right now. Mmmmm tastey!!!:D :eek:
H9
P.S. This is meant to be humorous because this thread was getting to be a bit to serious.

What a dumbass :rolleyes:

You couldv'e got a Zu Birth for $45

dcarlson

Cool.

I like my cables.

madmax

Originally posted by ninerbj
A/C POWER CABLES
When you plug your power cord into the wall outlet you are in 'SERIES' with all the wire on the other side of the wall all the way back to the power source. The small length of power cord from the wall to the amp is insignificant compared to the miles of wire it is connected to. As long as the power cord can deliver the current and voltage required to drive the amplifier to full power it is as good as it can get.

http://www.bryston.ca/cablememo.html

Well, I guess if it is written on an internet site it must be true. :rolleyes:

This person and possibly his company knows nothing about HF noise or shielding. Very sad.

madmax

madmax

Actually...

I've always respected the Bryston name. I'll try to keep in mind that this was a sales jerk who is tired of people wasting his time wanting info about something they dont sell, power cables.

Most engineers will tell you that if you want to keep local RF noise down you will try to shield the power cables. Not only because of what they pick up but also what they emit. These are often really close to all the other wiring.

madmax

Kenneth HIFI

Hi,
I am new in the Polk Club. I am Swedish, so I hope you don’t mind some minor faults in my skills in the English language, since it’s not my native language.
You might experience a minor improvement in sound and reduction of back ground noise levels, if the mains lead is routed along many of your signal cables (and they have poor shielding). It also requires that the new mains lead is massively shielded (to prevent “leakage” output) of course.
Otherwise I would like to claim that the only difference in the systems performance, when changing the mains lead is psychological.
I personally made some improvement to my system, changing routings on the mains cord, prior to the wall outlet.
This is what I did:
Reserved a separate incoming phase (incoming power is 3 phase + zero + ground). It had 10 mm2 cables. I then ran the phase through it’s own separate automatic fuse kit. After the fuse kit I put a heavy duty (64 ampere continuous capacity) Swiss made mains filter, to minimize interference from other appliances and voltage peaks.
From the filter to the wall outlet I rerouted the cables totally, away from other cables, and used an over dimensioned (8 mm2) and fully shielded (mesh and foil) installation cable. I connected it to it’s own wall outlet (shielded), of course grounded.
All these improvements together made a noticeable reduction of interference from other appliances and background noise. Further I am now also insured that my mains lead won’t interfere too much with signal cables and alike.
Some time afterwards I also changed the mains leads to the separate stereo equipment appliances to this shielded installation cable. No great improvement was discovered.

WilliamM2 wrote:

No experience? How can you know this? Audio has been a hobby of mine for 30 years now, I have heard quite a few cables in that time. I used my ears to come to my conclusion.

I still buy decent cables, because I like the build quality, shielding, and reliability. If I did hear a difference between them, I would assume something was wrong with one of the cables.

But hey, If you enjoy them, great. That is what it's supposed to be about.

reeltrouble1

Who are these innocent non-enthusiest audiophiles the article mentions that are being bilked by the cable companies? Seems like those who want to get a power cord have made an informed decision.

I am more interested in why this purchase can infuriate another person so much.

RT1

shack

reeltrouble1 wrote:

I am more interested in why this purchase can infuriate another person so much.

RT1

BINGO!...It's MY money to spend as I see fit. I am a fairly smart individual who works hard for my money and I consider myself an imformed consumer. For a long time I tried to let folks know what I experienced and what I think about cables and wires. I'm over it and could care less about what anyone else thinks about what I do or do not have/use. I am glad to help anyone who is interested in what I have to share. However, I've gotten to the point where I really have NO interest in debating this topic. If you guys do...knock yourselves out.

heiney9

shack wrote:

BINGO!...It's MY money to spend as I see fit. I am a fairly smart individual who works hard for my money and I consider myself an imformed consumer. For a long time I tried to let folks know what I experienced and what I think about cables and wires. I'm over it and could care less about what anyone else thinks about what I do or do not have/use. I am glad to help anyone who is interested in what I have to share. However, I've gotten to the point where I really have NO interest in debating this topic. If you guys do...knock yourselves out.

Well stated. I might add that I also get bored with people (mostly newbies, not always) asking for an opinion and then telling me why my opinion isn't valid. They asked, I answered. I'm tired of debating also, but am always willing to share my experiences and POV as long as it's constructive.

Here's a link that I think approached a problem/question in the correct way and in the end everyone contributed and an actual solution was given.

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33788

This is the way it should go. Nothing wrong with constructive debating but most times it spirals down to the depths of hell. It can be damn entertaining though .

H9