Ouch!
ninerbj
Posts: 870
Power Leads
We all know that the mains lead from the wall receptacle to the equipment is very ordinary. So ordinary in fact that we tend not to think too much about it - just plug it in and forget it, right?
Well, according to some, WRONG. The sound from your system will be enhanced by spending US$650 (and no, that is not a misprint) for a "Super" mains lead. Maybe (if you have far more money than sense) you would rather pay US$3000 - yes, three thousand US dollars - this will really help. This company is called NBS (as in No BS (?)) - well I have to tell you that this is even worse BS than the Gryphon Exorcist.
What amazes me is that people (such as reviewers) fall for this, and having told the unsuspecting public, those with less sense than God gave a tree believe them. I am more than amazed, I am astonished beyond belief.
Let's have a clinical (sorry, cynical) look at the claim. If the cable supplied were to have zero ohms resistance, no inductance or capacitance (or perhaps quite a lot of both - I can't decide which would be more sonically pure - grin), what would be its contribution to the overall AC mains signal coming from the power station? The answer is of course NONE, or to qualify this a little better NONE WHATSOEVER! What about the internal wiring of the house?
Ah, but this has been replaced (at great expense) with pure silver, and all mains outlets are gold plated to prevent corrosion. This would only cost about $10,000 for the essential wiring, but we might have a small problem with the power company ...
Hi-Fi Nut: "I would like you to ensure that only the best quality oxygen free copper is used between the substation and my house please."
Power Co.: "Certainly sir, no problem at all. This will cost you ... (sounds of furious calculating) $150,000 for materials and labour. Do you want to pay for this now, or shall we put it on your bill?"
HFN: "Oh, just put it on the bill, thanks."
PC: "Now sir (giggle), what about the substation itself? This uses very ordinary copper for the transformer, and the steel used in the laminations is not Hi-Fi grade. Would you want these replaced too? (snigger) Oh, yes, I nearly forgot that the transformer oil we use for cooling is just the ordinary stuff, you would want the 'Swinheimer 2000 Plus', that is very fine sounding transformer oil."
HFN: "Yeah, that sounds pretty good, but isn't the 'Soundmaster dB' oil better?"
PC: "(Grin) Well yes, but it is rather expensive I'm afraid. About $40 per litre if I remember correctly."
HFN: "No that's fine. I want the very best. So how much will this cost?"
PC: "We should be able (chortle) to manage that for only $780,000 all up (choke). Now, what about the pylons back to the power station? Most of them are mild steel, and are zinc plated to stop rust. They sound awful (laughs loudly). We could have them removed and replaced with gold plated ones for a mere $23,576,000 if you like."
HFN: "Wow. Go for it. This will sound awesome."
PC: (Howling with uncontrollable laughter) "Thank (grunt) you (snorph) sir (hahaha). We will organise this (howl) within three working lifetimes (moan, hahaha, 'my sides hurt', snort). Bye" (and promptly pees himself and collapses on floor with severe abdominal pain from so much laughing. "All this fun, and they PAY me too." he says when he recovers enough to speak.)
I could go on, but I won't (I can see a short story in this). So, what do YOU think? Let me (and the manufacturers below) know. Since I have already been chastised for only mentioning these two manufacturers, let me point out that they came to my attention quite accidentally. There are many others out there doing exactly the same, and I consider them to be charlatans, too.
Signature II AC Power Cable
Manufactured by NBS Audio Cables
155 Fifth Avenue South, Suite 150, Minneapolis, MN, 55401, USA
web: http://www.nbscables.com, e-mail:nbscable@nbscables.com
Price: US$650.00 for four or six foot length
PowerTap AC Power Cable
Manufactured by Audiodyne
P.O. Box 34210, Las Vegas, NV, 89133-4210, USA
web: http://www.audiodyne.com, e-mail:sales@audiodyne.com
Price: US$125.00 for six foot length
The above is not an endorsement in any way, shape or form. Quite the opposite, I am disgusted with the gall and audacity of these companies, and deplore their hype and BS. I am also disgusted with the stupidity of reviewers who claim that this nonsense actually works - someone must be handing them some serious cash !
Why would I not be as mad as hell?
As a matter of interest, I have conducted many tests on many amplifiers, with all manner of different power leads (and ancillary outboard equipment such as a variable voltage transformer). The only measurable difference is a tiny (less than one watt) power difference. There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that a mains lead can influence the "openness" of the high frequencies, or the "authority" of the bass. Electrically speaking, the transformer is a far greater offender, having much greater resistance than even the cheapest mains lead, and will also have leakage inductance and inter-winding capacitance.
I know for a fact (because I measured it) that the resistance (impedance) of the mains wiring to my workbench is about 0.8 Ohms (240V nominal supply voltage at 50Hz). This includes the house wiring, main switchboard, and the power company's cabling back to the power station. I also know that this varies from minute to minute depending on demand. According to these idiots, if I spend some vast amount of money for a mains lead, it will somehow negate the contribution of all of this - perhaps a total of 50km or more by the time it arrives at my home from the power station. At various locations, the voltage is stepped up for long distance transmission (which often uses aluminium cable - not oxygen free or anything!), stepped back down again for local transmission, then finally reduced to 240V at a local substation or pole transformer.
With 0.8 Ohms series impedance, a 2400W heater causes a drop of 8V RMS when connected, representing a 3.3% regulation. By comparison, the regulation of a typical Hi-Fi system transformer will be in the order of 10% to 15%. Not because the transformer is especially bad, but because of the very high peak diode current in the rectifier circuit. No mains lead will (or can) prevent this, regardless of cost.
I have sent an e-mail to both the companies listed above asking for documentary proof of their claims, and at the time of this update have one reply (see below).
The first response is from Audiodyne, and he does have a point - albeit a pointless one! I have mentioned the ones I know of from stuff I have seen - I do not actively seek out this nonsense, and don't intend to start now.
(A correction was made (10 Apr 2000) - I had somehow managed to miss the decimal point, so 0.8 Ohm became 8 Ohms. My apologies if this mislead anyone.)
Cheers,
Rod Elliott
Response From Audiodyne:
Mr. Elliot:
Let's suppose you are right about power cords, that they have no effect, and you do have a right to your opinion. You are unfair to single us and NBS out. To be fair to your readers you need to list all high-end audio companies that make power cords.
David Edleman
Audiodyne
Original Message
From: Rod Elliott
To: info@audiodyne.com
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 1999 3:45 AM
Subject: Powertap cables ??
How do you people sleep at night - laughing your heads off is my guess. What justification is there to hoodwink the unsuspecting buyers into paying $115 to $190 for a mains lead?
Perhaps you would like to have a look at an editorial (and yes, you are named) on the web, denouncing the drivel you people are claiming as "fact". There are no facts to support a single claim that a power cable has any effect on the sound, unless it is 300 metres long and made from bell wire.
My page can be found at
www.sound.au.com
I would be most interested in any supporting documentation you have. If you can convince me, I will publish a retraction - but it had better be good. For example, I would like an explanation as to how 1.8 metres (6') or so of cable changes the characteristics of perhaps 100km of power company's electricity supply ("ordinary" copper or aluminium cable being quite typical). I await your response.
Cheers,
Rod Elliott
Not exactly a wealth of information supporting the claim, just a plaintive little cry that I am unfair, because I did not name all the "High End" mains lead makers. As stated above, I do not go around seeking this info, but will complain when I find it. If David Edleman really wants me to name all makers, perhaps he could send me a list of names. It might also have been nice if he spelled my name properly.
As a result of a rather furious debate at the AudioAsylum, I did learn that the mains in the US are often rather nasty, and that filters and power conditioners can have a beneficial effect. I don't have a problem with that, and the new information is in the article "The Truth About Cables, Interconnects and Audio in General", which although some may take offence, is pretty much the way it is - especially since no-one has offered any proof to the contrary.
We all know that the mains lead from the wall receptacle to the equipment is very ordinary. So ordinary in fact that we tend not to think too much about it - just plug it in and forget it, right?
Well, according to some, WRONG. The sound from your system will be enhanced by spending US$650 (and no, that is not a misprint) for a "Super" mains lead. Maybe (if you have far more money than sense) you would rather pay US$3000 - yes, three thousand US dollars - this will really help. This company is called NBS (as in No BS (?)) - well I have to tell you that this is even worse BS than the Gryphon Exorcist.
What amazes me is that people (such as reviewers) fall for this, and having told the unsuspecting public, those with less sense than God gave a tree believe them. I am more than amazed, I am astonished beyond belief.
Let's have a clinical (sorry, cynical) look at the claim. If the cable supplied were to have zero ohms resistance, no inductance or capacitance (or perhaps quite a lot of both - I can't decide which would be more sonically pure - grin), what would be its contribution to the overall AC mains signal coming from the power station? The answer is of course NONE, or to qualify this a little better NONE WHATSOEVER! What about the internal wiring of the house?
Ah, but this has been replaced (at great expense) with pure silver, and all mains outlets are gold plated to prevent corrosion. This would only cost about $10,000 for the essential wiring, but we might have a small problem with the power company ...
Hi-Fi Nut: "I would like you to ensure that only the best quality oxygen free copper is used between the substation and my house please."
Power Co.: "Certainly sir, no problem at all. This will cost you ... (sounds of furious calculating) $150,000 for materials and labour. Do you want to pay for this now, or shall we put it on your bill?"
HFN: "Oh, just put it on the bill, thanks."
PC: "Now sir (giggle), what about the substation itself? This uses very ordinary copper for the transformer, and the steel used in the laminations is not Hi-Fi grade. Would you want these replaced too? (snigger) Oh, yes, I nearly forgot that the transformer oil we use for cooling is just the ordinary stuff, you would want the 'Swinheimer 2000 Plus', that is very fine sounding transformer oil."
HFN: "Yeah, that sounds pretty good, but isn't the 'Soundmaster dB' oil better?"
PC: "(Grin) Well yes, but it is rather expensive I'm afraid. About $40 per litre if I remember correctly."
HFN: "No that's fine. I want the very best. So how much will this cost?"
PC: "We should be able (chortle) to manage that for only $780,000 all up (choke). Now, what about the pylons back to the power station? Most of them are mild steel, and are zinc plated to stop rust. They sound awful (laughs loudly). We could have them removed and replaced with gold plated ones for a mere $23,576,000 if you like."
HFN: "Wow. Go for it. This will sound awesome."
PC: (Howling with uncontrollable laughter) "Thank (grunt) you (snorph) sir (hahaha). We will organise this (howl) within three working lifetimes (moan, hahaha, 'my sides hurt', snort). Bye" (and promptly pees himself and collapses on floor with severe abdominal pain from so much laughing. "All this fun, and they PAY me too." he says when he recovers enough to speak.)
I could go on, but I won't (I can see a short story in this). So, what do YOU think? Let me (and the manufacturers below) know. Since I have already been chastised for only mentioning these two manufacturers, let me point out that they came to my attention quite accidentally. There are many others out there doing exactly the same, and I consider them to be charlatans, too.
Signature II AC Power Cable
Manufactured by NBS Audio Cables
155 Fifth Avenue South, Suite 150, Minneapolis, MN, 55401, USA
web: http://www.nbscables.com, e-mail:nbscable@nbscables.com
Price: US$650.00 for four or six foot length
PowerTap AC Power Cable
Manufactured by Audiodyne
P.O. Box 34210, Las Vegas, NV, 89133-4210, USA
web: http://www.audiodyne.com, e-mail:sales@audiodyne.com
Price: US$125.00 for six foot length
The above is not an endorsement in any way, shape or form. Quite the opposite, I am disgusted with the gall and audacity of these companies, and deplore their hype and BS. I am also disgusted with the stupidity of reviewers who claim that this nonsense actually works - someone must be handing them some serious cash !
Why would I not be as mad as hell?
As a matter of interest, I have conducted many tests on many amplifiers, with all manner of different power leads (and ancillary outboard equipment such as a variable voltage transformer). The only measurable difference is a tiny (less than one watt) power difference. There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that a mains lead can influence the "openness" of the high frequencies, or the "authority" of the bass. Electrically speaking, the transformer is a far greater offender, having much greater resistance than even the cheapest mains lead, and will also have leakage inductance and inter-winding capacitance.
I know for a fact (because I measured it) that the resistance (impedance) of the mains wiring to my workbench is about 0.8 Ohms (240V nominal supply voltage at 50Hz). This includes the house wiring, main switchboard, and the power company's cabling back to the power station. I also know that this varies from minute to minute depending on demand. According to these idiots, if I spend some vast amount of money for a mains lead, it will somehow negate the contribution of all of this - perhaps a total of 50km or more by the time it arrives at my home from the power station. At various locations, the voltage is stepped up for long distance transmission (which often uses aluminium cable - not oxygen free or anything!), stepped back down again for local transmission, then finally reduced to 240V at a local substation or pole transformer.
With 0.8 Ohms series impedance, a 2400W heater causes a drop of 8V RMS when connected, representing a 3.3% regulation. By comparison, the regulation of a typical Hi-Fi system transformer will be in the order of 10% to 15%. Not because the transformer is especially bad, but because of the very high peak diode current in the rectifier circuit. No mains lead will (or can) prevent this, regardless of cost.
I have sent an e-mail to both the companies listed above asking for documentary proof of their claims, and at the time of this update have one reply (see below).
The first response is from Audiodyne, and he does have a point - albeit a pointless one! I have mentioned the ones I know of from stuff I have seen - I do not actively seek out this nonsense, and don't intend to start now.
(A correction was made (10 Apr 2000) - I had somehow managed to miss the decimal point, so 0.8 Ohm became 8 Ohms. My apologies if this mislead anyone.)
Cheers,
Rod Elliott
Response From Audiodyne:
Mr. Elliot:
Let's suppose you are right about power cords, that they have no effect, and you do have a right to your opinion. You are unfair to single us and NBS out. To be fair to your readers you need to list all high-end audio companies that make power cords.
David Edleman
Audiodyne
Original Message
From: Rod Elliott
To: info@audiodyne.com
Sent: Sunday, November 21, 1999 3:45 AM
Subject: Powertap cables ??
How do you people sleep at night - laughing your heads off is my guess. What justification is there to hoodwink the unsuspecting buyers into paying $115 to $190 for a mains lead?
Perhaps you would like to have a look at an editorial (and yes, you are named) on the web, denouncing the drivel you people are claiming as "fact". There are no facts to support a single claim that a power cable has any effect on the sound, unless it is 300 metres long and made from bell wire.
My page can be found at
www.sound.au.com
I would be most interested in any supporting documentation you have. If you can convince me, I will publish a retraction - but it had better be good. For example, I would like an explanation as to how 1.8 metres (6') or so of cable changes the characteristics of perhaps 100km of power company's electricity supply ("ordinary" copper or aluminium cable being quite typical). I await your response.
Cheers,
Rod Elliott
Not exactly a wealth of information supporting the claim, just a plaintive little cry that I am unfair, because I did not name all the "High End" mains lead makers. As stated above, I do not go around seeking this info, but will complain when I find it. If David Edleman really wants me to name all makers, perhaps he could send me a list of names. It might also have been nice if he spelled my name properly.
As a result of a rather furious debate at the AudioAsylum, I did learn that the mains in the US are often rather nasty, and that filters and power conditioners can have a beneficial effect. I don't have a problem with that, and the new information is in the article "The Truth About Cables, Interconnects and Audio in General", which although some may take offence, is pretty much the way it is - especially since no-one has offered any proof to the contrary.
"she had the body of Venus, with arms."
Post edited by ninerbj on
Comments
-
Very good article in deed my friend.
300 dollar power cables have always irked me too. Thanks for putting the words that i needed in defense against these monsters in my mouth. -
Amen.
It's a fools paradise out there. The big hint should come when your ac power setup cost 3 times as much as your entire audio system.
I'm not technical, but I do know that I have done zero/zilch with my ac; I have a standard 20amp circuit with standard construction 14awg copper wire and 98 cent wall outlet; and I don't hear anything "unusual" out of my audio system or any type or fashion of ac interference...Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2 -
Well for whatever the reason, I have experienced a 'change' in the sound of my system between the supplied power cord and the 2 after market power cords I have tried, the DH Labs Power Plus and the Zu Birth. The main difference has been more bass authority. I was skepticle as well but really the same claims/calculations/proofs/whatever, that you're supplying have been made from objectivists for years regarding audio interconnects and speaker wire (and more recently, power cords). I'm not a measurements expert but even if I was I would have to go by what my ear tells me, regardless of what someone else says or where common sense and logic may point.
I think you're wasting your time because people like me that have experienced changes aren't going to change their minds just because you throw out a few measurements and opinions. It's been an ongoing controversy for years. Your arguments and logic are nothing new. Hundreds have already said the exact same thing.2 channel - Willsenton R8 tube integrated, Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE DAC, audio optimized NUC7i5, Windows 10 Pro/JRiver MC29/Fidelizer Plus 8.7 w/LPS and external SSD drive, PS Audio PerfectWave P3 regenerator, KEF R3 speakers, Rythmik F12SE subwoofer, Audioquest Diamond USB cable, Gabriel Gold IC's, Morrow Audio SP5 speaker cables. Computer - Windows 10/JRiver, Schiit Magni 3+/Modi 3+, Fostex PMO.4n monitors, Sennheiser HD600 headphones -
I agree that high-grade power cords and what not--probably good quality outlets--can and do make a difference; but to lay out tens of thousands of dollars??
Thats straight up nuts.Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2 -
Wasting my time?
My arguments and logic are nothing new?
WTF?? Hell, I found an artical and decided to share it with the forum.
So...bite me and stick your cable up your ****!
Love and kisses,
Brad (lampcord) Johnson
:cool:"she had the body of Venus, with arms." -
Originally posted by steveinaz
I agree that high-grade power cords and what not--probably good quality outlets--can and do make a difference
I think what Einstein is trying to say though is that they absolutely, 100% don't. He just uses too many words and says it funny.
I think his 'tens of thousands of dollars' illustration was a fantasy analogy which attempts to show how silly it is to think a 6 ft power cord could alter sound.2 channel - Willsenton R8 tube integrated, Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE DAC, audio optimized NUC7i5, Windows 10 Pro/JRiver MC29/Fidelizer Plus 8.7 w/LPS and external SSD drive, PS Audio PerfectWave P3 regenerator, KEF R3 speakers, Rythmik F12SE subwoofer, Audioquest Diamond USB cable, Gabriel Gold IC's, Morrow Audio SP5 speaker cables. Computer - Windows 10/JRiver, Schiit Magni 3+/Modi 3+, Fostex PMO.4n monitors, Sennheiser HD600 headphones -
Originally posted by ninerbj
WTF?? Hell, I found an artical and decided to share it with the forum.
So...bite me and stick your cable up your ****!
Love and kisses,
Brad (lampcord) Johnson
:cool:
Where in your post does it say that you are sharing an article? I must have missed that, sorry :rolleyes: It appeared to me the post was written by Rod ****' Elliott.
As far as sticking my cable up my ****, that's another advantage of after market PC's. The size of the Wattgate and Marinco connectors make this mishap virtually impossible
2 channel - Willsenton R8 tube integrated, Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE DAC, audio optimized NUC7i5, Windows 10 Pro/JRiver MC29/Fidelizer Plus 8.7 w/LPS and external SSD drive, PS Audio PerfectWave P3 regenerator, KEF R3 speakers, Rythmik F12SE subwoofer, Audioquest Diamond USB cable, Gabriel Gold IC's, Morrow Audio SP5 speaker cables. Computer - Windows 10/JRiver, Schiit Magni 3+/Modi 3+, Fostex PMO.4n monitors, Sennheiser HD600 headphones -
Originally posted by dragon1952
Where in your post does it say that you are sharing an article? I must have missed that, sorry :rolleyes:
I was confused at first as well. But the giveaway is it's signed Rod Elliott. The same Rod Elliott from Elliott Sound Products (ESP) a DIY audio site with a wealth of knowlegde and experience here's the site for those interested. Lots of great audio/electrical explanations. I use this site a lot for reference.
http://sound.westhost.com/index2.html
At first I thought it WAS Rod Elliott posting.
FWIW
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
Enough name calling here,
I found the article interesting and we all know there are varying opnions on the subject.
For me I chose to upgrade my cables so I could get from my power conditioner to my subs without any extension cords.
The cables I bought were 15' long, damn near 1" thick and stainless steel braided.
They look impressive and did not hurt the sound at all. I would like to say they helped but honestly I did not notice a difference.
As for price, I spent just over $100.00 each which I do not feel was too much for the quality of cable I received.Skynut
SOPA® Founder
The system Almost there
DVD Onkyo DV-SP802
Sunfire Theater Grand II
Sherbourn 7/2100
Panamax 5510 power conditioner (for electronics)
2 PSAudio UPC-200 power conditioners (for amps)
Front L/R RT3000p (Bi-Wired)
Center CS1000p (Bi-Wired) (under the television)
Center RT2000p's (Bi-Wired) (on each side of the television)
Sur FX1000
SVS ultra plus 2
www.ShadetreesMachineShop.com
Thanks for looking -
Originally posted by heiney9
I was confused at first as well. But the giveaway is it's signed Rod Elliott. At first I thought it WAS Rod Elliott posting. FWIW
H9
I've never heard of the dude to tell you the truth, hence my confusion. I thought I was responding to the author of the post :rolleyes: WTF do I know!2 channel - Willsenton R8 tube integrated, Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE DAC, audio optimized NUC7i5, Windows 10 Pro/JRiver MC29/Fidelizer Plus 8.7 w/LPS and external SSD drive, PS Audio PerfectWave P3 regenerator, KEF R3 speakers, Rythmik F12SE subwoofer, Audioquest Diamond USB cable, Gabriel Gold IC's, Morrow Audio SP5 speaker cables. Computer - Windows 10/JRiver, Schiit Magni 3+/Modi 3+, Fostex PMO.4n monitors, Sennheiser HD600 headphones -
Originally posted by dragon1952
I've never heard of the dude to tell you the truth, hence my confusion. I thought I was responding to the author of the post :rolleyes: WTF do I know!
LOL....I just recognized the name having used his site for ref. Check it out if your interested in that kind of thing. Lot's of info. I may not always agree w/ the final POV but solid info nonetheless. Can get a bit heavy on the technical.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
From http://www.bryston.ca/cablememo.html :
A/C POWER CABLES
When you plug your power cord into the wall outlet you are in 'SERIES' with all the wire on the other side of the wall all the way back to the power source. The small length of power cord from the wall to the amp is insignificant compared to the miles of wire it is connected to. As long as the power cord can deliver the current and voltage required to drive the amplifier to full power it is as good as it can get.Gallo Ref 3.1 : Bryston 4b SST : Musical fidelity CD Pre : VPI HW-19
Gallo Ref AV, Frankengallo Ref 3, LC60i : Bryston 9b SST : Meridian 565
Jordan JX92s : MF X-T100 : Xray v8
Backburner:Krell KAV-300i -
Even if it just makes a difference in a person's head, it still made a difference for them. If that difference made them happy, then more power to them.
-
Again, the final component in any Audio system is the listener's brain. Some people definitely need an upgrade.
-
Originally posted by dragon1952
As far as sticking my cable up my ****, that's another advantage of after market PC's. The Wattgate and Marinco connectors make this mishap virually impossible
Now that was funny...:DSource: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2 -
Roddy is a idiot, just like all the other other idiots who have to measure something audio related with test equipment. The true test of any audio related item is done by listening with your own two ears.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Why not just hard wire the amp all the way to the breaker box with 10 ga wire and forgetaboutit.>
>
>This message has been scanned by the NSA and found to be free of harmful intent.< -
Originally posted by F1nut
Roddy is a idiot, just like all the other other idiots who have to measure something audio related with test equipment. The true test of any audio related item is done by listening with your own two ears.
Is that why Bose sells so well....:D No wait...wait...wait...that's marketing
What you hear should be the ultimate determing factor, absolutely. Roddy maybe a phreak...but much of info is solid if you want to learn how things interact and how they work. He has opinions just like the rest of us. The article in this thread is a bit over the top, I'll agree.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
A lot of sheep out there, H9. A lot of sheep.
P-85, because a good power cord will eliminate things like RF and EMI that house wire won't.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Originally posted by F1nut
Roddy is a idiot, just like all the other other idiots who have to measure something audio related with test equipment. The true test of any audio related item is done by listening with your own two ears.
+1
But... A lot of people can't tell the difference. I have a friend who can't hear even obvious differences such as putting a surround processor in line. Sure, he can hear very well but he does not pay attention to the sound. He is a non-audiophile for sure.
madmaxVinyl, the final frontier...
Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want...
-
How bout all the "believers" give a demo to all the "non's" at this years Polk-Fest?
Let's do a BLIND shoot out on power cords!
Let's compare speaker wire, analog connections and such.
What do you think guys?
9er"she had the body of Venus, with arms." -
Originally posted by ninerbj
How bout all the "believers" give a demo to all the "non's" at this years Polk-Fest?
Let's do a BLIND shoot out on power cords!
Let's compare speaker wire, analog connections and such.
What do you think guys?
9er
We do that already -
Really? I didn't know you guys did a blind test with cables last time.
Were the results of these test ever in one of the threads...cause I am having a hard time finding it.
"she had the body of Venus, with arms." -
This is how the blind test is done.
Step one: Poke out the eyes of the non-believer
Step two: Listen to more music
Step three: Go home.
Results: The non-believer normally has a hard time finding his way home.
madmax
Vinyl, the final frontier...
Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... -
Originally posted by madmax
This is how the blind test is done.
Step one: Poke out the eyes of the non-believer
Step two: Listen to more music
Step three: Go home.
Results: The non-believer normally has a hard time finding his way home.
madmax
I guess I'll have to bring my seeing eye dog (Strider) so I can make it home
<JK> I'm not a true non-believer; I just play one on TV. No, really there is certainly some merit to upgrading cables/power cords etc. I just believe you reach diminishing returns pretty quickly when you hit a certain level.
H9
EDIT: Taking into account things like, room, equipment and source material is where the dimishing returns are for me."Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Pangea AC14SE MKII | Legend L600 | BlueSound Node 3 - Tubes add soul! -
Oh Max!! You're so punny!!!"she had the body of Venus, with arms."
-
Aesthetically it can be important. If you like to show off the back of your system or if you have long runs out in the open it may make you happy to show off.
Mine look like total overkill when they are seen.
This make me happy. They do not really sound any better but they have massive wire inside them and are way thicker than the original cords that came with the subs, plus thay are long runs with no extension cords.
I like them for their beauty if nothing else and I plan to replace the rest when I get the money.Skynut
SOPA® Founder
The system Almost there
DVD Onkyo DV-SP802
Sunfire Theater Grand II
Sherbourn 7/2100
Panamax 5510 power conditioner (for electronics)
2 PSAudio UPC-200 power conditioners (for amps)
Front L/R RT3000p (Bi-Wired)
Center CS1000p (Bi-Wired) (under the television)
Center RT2000p's (Bi-Wired) (on each side of the television)
Sur FX1000
SVS ultra plus 2
www.ShadetreesMachineShop.com
Thanks for looking -
A lot of sheep out there, H9. A lot of sheep.
Apparently so, look at all the people willing to spend hundreds on power cable upgrades.
You would think in all these years, just ONCE someone would be able to pass a blind listening test for cables. Yet no one ever has. -
I'll pass any test you can come up with, but it has to be in my house with my gear and with my choice of music. If you're game bring a grand with you.
You wonder why people have a hard time with gear they don't own in a room they aren't familiar with??? I don't. That's a test that has zero merit. Then there's those tests with like 20 other people in the same room......so who has the sweet spot? Maybe two of them. How the hell can you even consider that valid???Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
If there really is a difference, there's no reason it would have to be your own equipment, in your own house, with your own music. Something like that would be too easy to rig.
It's not like they have to identify which cable is which, or which is better, just correctly identify when it has changed. Shouldn't be that hard, since most believers claim to hear HUGE differences with different cables, so much so that they can no longer live without them.
And I was mainly refering to power cables.
