Damnit I Think Rti's Are Better Than Lsi's!

13

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  • aaharvel
    aaharvel Posts: 4,489
    edited July 2005
    so just regular wire would do it? wow.

    thanks
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    "People working at Polk Audio must sit around the office and just laugh their balls off reading many of these comments." -Lush
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,776
    edited July 2005
    Yep, look up "Jumpers" on the forum, and yall get some threads.
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • aaharvel
    aaharvel Posts: 4,489
    edited July 2005
    thanks alot Sid.
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,776
    edited July 2005
    While your doing cheap upgrades...

    Upgrade the crossovers!! Extremely cheap upgrade, especially if your good with a soldering iron.

    Get you some Dayton caps and Mill resistors.
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • aaharvel
    aaharvel Posts: 4,489
    edited July 2005
    Originally posted by Vr3MxStyler2k3
    While your doing cheap upgrades...

    Upgrade the crossovers!! Extremely cheap upgrade, especially if your good with a soldering iron.

    Get you some Dayton caps and Mill resistors.

    lol Sid- I have no idea what you just said. I'm a mid-fi guy but DO want to learn.

    (edit) I don't know jack about Tubes either.
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,776
    edited July 2005
    Dayton Caps -
    http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?&DID=7&WebPage_ID=69

    Mill Resistors -
    http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?&DID=7&WebPage_ID=110

    Jcaut, a member on here modded my crossovers for me a while back. The parts costed around $40.00

    Here is a before shot -
    BP10BCrossover3.jpg

    Here is a after shot -
    BP10BCRossoverMod2.jpgBP10BCRossoverMod.jpg
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • unbridled_id
    unbridled_id Posts: 179
    edited July 2005
    I don't doubt that any of you hear a difference between the rti's and lsi's, so did I. The question is: would the difference be deemed "better" and WHY. Certainly for tubed equipment the rti's with their more forward approach would be "better" to some. Why is what the polk rep said so easily disregarded? What does he have to gain by saying what he said ?
    Come on folks don't be so closed minded.
    Also there are some who find the more forward presentation of the rti's to be a better match for rock music... Is is possible, could it be ???? Could the rti's be better in some situations to some people even though they cost much less ?
    I would like to think so ;)...
    The greatest enemy of truth is very often not the lie - deliberate, contrived and dishonest - but the myth - persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.

    Blaming the prince of the fools should not blind anyone to the vast confederacy of fools that made him their prince.
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,776
    edited July 2005
    Better Crossovers...

    Better Midbasses...

    Better Tweeters...

    Better Cabinets...

    Can only lead to one thing...

    Better sound? :D
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • unbridled_id
    unbridled_id Posts: 179
    edited July 2005
    Touche !
    The greatest enemy of truth is very often not the lie - deliberate, contrived and dishonest - but the myth - persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.

    Blaming the prince of the fools should not blind anyone to the vast confederacy of fools that made him their prince.
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  • aaharvel
    aaharvel Posts: 4,489
    edited July 2005
    well Sid I just took your advice and searched the threads. I found one where RUSS recommended trading out the cheap brass jumpers for speakerwire jumpers-

    So I JUST switched them out for 12gauge wire-about 5" in length.

    I can tell a difference. THe silk tweet in the rti4 is more composed and less bright now. It sounds more like the old Tri-Lams which is a good thing. Thanks alot!
    H/K Signature 2.1+235
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    "People working at Polk Audio must sit around the office and just laugh their balls off reading many of these comments." -Lush
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,776
    edited July 2005
    Now you just gotta upgrade the xovers. ;)
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • Willow
    Willow Posts: 11,056
    edited July 2005
    VR3, what and how would upgrading the xover improve ? this is not a statment but an honest question
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  • marker
    marker Posts: 1,084
    edited July 2005
    Originally posted by Sami
    It depends. If you listen to music then they are more than twice as good... :)

    Depends on what kind of music.
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  • Sami
    Sami Posts: 4,634
    edited July 2005
    Originally posted by marker
    Depends on what kind of music.
    Sure, if the mix is not very good the LSi's are not forgiving (the bad part of being a good sounding speaker). To me the LSi's are better in every aspect, for HT too, and as for cost why does it have to be the 15's? 7's and 9's sound great too and are easier to drive, in fact the 7's will sing great even with a TOTL receiver.
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  • Airplay355
    Airplay355 Posts: 4,298
    edited July 2005
    If you get Lsi 7's...make sure you have a sub
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  • Sami
    Sami Posts: 4,634
    edited July 2005
    Originally posted by Airplay355
    If you get Lsi 7's...make sure you have a sub
    Absolutely, and even if you get the 15's or RTi12's I would suggest a sub for movies. I have 7's with SVS PCU and they mate quite well after playing with the placement and crossover frequency.
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  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,776
    edited July 2005
    Originally posted by Willow
    VR3, what and how would upgrading the xover improve ? this is not a statment but an honest question

    Upgrading the crossovers make alot of sense. Mainly because you are flat out putting better components in there. Much better than even some high end brands.

    What you would most likely hear is alot more detail, better staging - just overall a better speaker. There isnt a real reason NOT to do it at how cheap it cost to get it done.
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
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  • markmarc
    markmarc Posts: 2,309
    edited July 2005
    I just got back from auditioning speakers. At Fry's I was able to compare the RTi10's and the LSi9's. They were running off a 120wpc JVC (I know, not a great choice) setup. In all honesty, the RTi10's sounded much better. Wider soundstage, more three dimensional, better bass, although the LSi9's are impressive, especially out of such a small box. The only area that the LSi9's won was in the depth of vocals.
    My opinion that the LSi's need a dedicated amp and bi-wiring is now absolute. Now, if I could only hear them under those conditions.
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  • unbridled_id
    unbridled_id Posts: 179
    edited July 2005
    Thanks Mark, a person who deals with this comparison using reason and not emotion.
    The greatest enemy of truth is very often not the lie - deliberate, contrived and dishonest - but the myth - persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.

    Blaming the prince of the fools should not blind anyone to the vast confederacy of fools that made him their prince.
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  • Airplay355
    Airplay355 Posts: 4,298
    edited July 2005
    I think that once you properly power the Lsi's you will realize they have much more depth then you expected, they just need alot of juice. Rti10's are much easier to power, and much more efficient. If you compaired them by just switching back and forth and leaving the volume at the same place then thats obviously not fair. The lsi's will be noticeably quieter making them seem to lack detail when it is really just your brain deciding the details that are more pronounced because of their SPL is attributed to better sound. Oh yea, and JVC? Is that the best stuff they had in there? Atleast put them on a Denon or Harmon Kardon.
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  • markmarc
    markmarc Posts: 2,309
    edited July 2005
    Airplay:
    Even after turning up the volume the depth just wasn't there. I also wonder if they just have never been broken in. They sounded like a light blanket was over them. Having been a stereo salesperson, we always tried to have the biggest speakers playing, whether or not they were the best. The idea was to bring attention to the area.

    I made it known to two of the sales guys that inspite of its heafty price, the JVC is a poor choice for the room. I encouraged them to push to get the top of the line HK back in there.

    This afternoon I listened to the Paradigm Reference 20 & 40's. Now that I have heard them both in the same room, and looking at the notes I wrote down at the time. I have to be honest, the Paradigm 40's are now my favorite. A consistent soundstage on an 80wpc Denon receiver.
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    Amplifiers: Parasound Halo P6 pre, Vista Audio i34, Peachtree amp500, Adcom GFP-565 GFA-535ii, 545ii, 555ii
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  • Frank Z
    Frank Z Posts: 5,860
    edited July 2005
    Lsi's auditioned with a receiver is a waste of time and electricity. If you want to really experience the full effect that the LSi's provide you must give them the power and headroom that they need to come to life. There are less than a handful of receivers that are up to the task and you won't find them at your run of the mill A/V store.

    We're done here...let's move on.
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    2005-06 Club Polk Football Pool Champion!! :D
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  • aaharvel
    aaharvel Posts: 4,489
    edited July 2005
    Originally posted by Frank Z
    We're done here...let's move on.

    agreed. I started this thread for the purpose of sarcasm and even I'm sick of it. :D
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  • Toxis
    Toxis Posts: 5,116
    edited July 2005
    Originally posted by markmarc
    I just got back from auditioning speakers. At Fry's I was able to compare the RTi10's and the LSi9's. They were running off a 120wpc JVC (I know, not a great choice) setup. In all honesty, the RTi10's sounded much better. Wider soundstage, more three dimensional, better bass, although the LSi9's are impressive, especially out of such a small box. The only area that the LSi9's won was in the depth of vocals.
    My opinion that the LSi's need a dedicated amp and bi-wiring is now absolute. Now, if I could only hear them under those conditions.
    actually, you auditioned the 10's, not the 9's. Even saying that is a stretch. You honestly didn't get any idea of how the 9's sound. Where I work, we have the 9's setup off a Sunfire Ultimate Receiver (400w @ 4 ohm) and honestly, they still don't have any imaging capabilites to them. Now with my seperate amp (spent MUCH less than what you would for the SUR) and it sounds 1000 times better. To say you tested out the 9's on a JVC receiver is like saying I test drove a ferrari with a cracked block. "It's power just didn't impress me."
    Never kick a fresh **** on a hot day.

    Home Setup: Sony VPL-VW85 Projo, 92" Stewart Firehawk, Pioneer Elite SC-65, PS3, RTi12 fronts, CSi5, FXi6 rears, RTi6 surround backs, RTi4 height, MFW-15 Subwoofer.

    Car Setup: OEM Radio, RF 360.2v2, Polk SR6500 quad amped off 4 Xtant 1.1 100w mono amps, Xtant 6.1 to run an eD 13av.2, all Stinger wiring and Raammat deadener.
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  • unbridled_id
    unbridled_id Posts: 179
    edited July 2005
    So 400 watts could not bring out the best in the 9's but your amp could ? Ok, perhaps more amps in your amp is that the reason ?
    The greatest enemy of truth is very often not the lie - deliberate, contrived and dishonest - but the myth - persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.

    Blaming the prince of the fools should not blind anyone to the vast confederacy of fools that made him their prince.
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  • marker
    marker Posts: 1,084
    edited July 2005
    My neighbor about 3 three doors down from me did have a pair of Boston Acoustics VR1, http://www.bostonacoustics.com/hs_product.asp?ProductID=268&CategoryID=2 VERY similar to the Polk RTi8. Just today, he upgraded them through a trade up program for a new pair of Boston Acoustics VR3 http://www.bostonacoustics.com/hs_product.asp?ProductID=266&CategoryID=2 They are VERY similar to Polk's RTi10 in driver size and complement. Oh, they are also a LOT more efficient at 93 db 1 watt/meter than the Polk RTi10 is at 89 db. This is equivalent to more than doubling the amplifier power. IOW, it would take over a 200 watt amp to drive the Polks to the same level as a 100 watt amp would the Bostons.

    He has either a Denon AVR-3803 or 3805 (I can't remember which offhand), and guess what? The VR3 pair sent the Denon AVR into shutdown protection mode. The VR1 pair never did this. It was not because of a wiring/connection issue either, as I checked it all out for him.

    Moral of the story you ask? The RTi10 is not as easy of a speaker to drive as some of you might think. Probably a more difficult load than a pair of Polk LSi7 despite the 4 ohm/8 ohm diffference because of those two big woofers.
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  • marker
    marker Posts: 1,084
    edited July 2005
    Update, I found out today that the receiver in question from my above post was a Denon 3803. It shut down apparantly from overheating while driving the VR3 pair in 2 channel direct mode at high volume levels for an extended period of time (over an hour) while trying to break in the speakers. While the 3803 isn't exactly a powerhouse like a NAD T773 for example, it isn't exactly a pantywaist either.

    Also, something else I've thought of regarding the debate going in this and another thread in the 2 channel forum, http://clubpolk.polkaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=30570 over whether or not the LSi7/9 is a harder load for an amp to drive than the RTi10/12, the Onkyo MC35 TECH mini system. http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=MC35TECH&class=Audiosys&p=i

    Here are the specs from the owner's manual on the little mini receiver:
    Amplifier Section
    Power output
    20 watts per channel, min RMS, at 4
    ohms, both channels driven 1 kHz,
    with no more than 0.6% THD
    15 watt per channel, min RMS, at
    8 ohms, both channels driven 1 kHz,
    with no more than 0.6% THD
    2 X 20 watts at 4 ohms, 1 kHz, DIN
    2 X 17 watts at 6 ohms, 1 kHz, DIN
    2 X 15 watts at 8 ohms, 1 kHz, DIN
    2 X 29 watts at 4 ohms, 1 kHz, EIAJ
    Dynamic power output
    2 X 24 watts at 4 ohms
    2 X 17 watts at 8 ohms
    Total harmonic distortion
    0.6% at rated power
    IM distortion
    0.6% at rated power
    Damping factor
    30 at 8 ohms
    Frequency and response
    10 to 50,000 Hz +0 / –3 dB
    Power supply
    AC 120 V, 60 Hz
    AC 230-240 V, 50 Hz
    Power consumption
    61 W (120 V, 60 Hz)
    54 W (230-240 V, 50 Hz)
    Dimensions (W X H X D)
    205 X 91 X 302 mm
    8-1/16" X 3-9/16" X 11-7/8"
    Weight
    3.4 kg, 7.5 lbs

    The speakers from Onkyo included with the system are 2-Way, Bass Reflex bookshelves, 5 OHM, and they have a low efficiency of 84 db/W/m with a frequency range of 60 Hz-35 kHz. Driver sizes are a 4 3/4" cone woofer and a 1" dome tweeter. Max. Power is 70 Watts.

    Now I know 5 ohms is not quiet as low as 4, but it is a lot closer to 4 ohms than it is 8. So if this miniscule receiver that may be putting out, what, at best maybe about 10 to 12 watts per channel into 8 ohms at less than 1% THD from 20 hz to 20 khz, and it can drive a 5 ohm speaker, then how hard of a load could the LSi7 really be with specs of Lower -3dB Limit 53Hz, Upper -3dB Limit 26kHz, Nominal Impedance 4 ohms, Recommended Amplifier Power 20 -150 w/channel, and Efficiency 88 dB?


    Granted, I know a pair of bookshelf sized LSi is a BIG difference from driving a whole 5.1 to 7.1 ensemble of them, but still, only 1 pair is really not that demanding of a load.
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  • michael_w
    michael_w Posts: 2,813
    edited July 2005
    I have a $30 sonic impact t-amp and it will drive my LSi7s with no problem just like the onkyo can handle its own speakers. The only problem with that is that to get the LSis anywhere near what they are cabable of they need tons of power. My panasonic avr just couldn't handle them so I had to buy a NAD.
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  • marker
    marker Posts: 1,084
    edited July 2005
    Originally posted by michael_w
    The only problem with that is that to get the LSis anywhere near what they are cabable of they need tons of power.

    As do the RTi10/12.
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  • Toxis
    Toxis Posts: 5,116
    edited July 2005
    Originally posted by marker
    It shut down apparantly from overheating while driving the VR3 pair in 2 channel direct mode at high volume levels for an extended period of time (over an hour) while trying to break in the speakers.
    does he also break in a new car's motor by running it close to redline on the highway for an hour?
    Never kick a fresh **** on a hot day.

    Home Setup: Sony VPL-VW85 Projo, 92" Stewart Firehawk, Pioneer Elite SC-65, PS3, RTi12 fronts, CSi5, FXi6 rears, RTi6 surround backs, RTi4 height, MFW-15 Subwoofer.

    Car Setup: OEM Radio, RF 360.2v2, Polk SR6500 quad amped off 4 Xtant 1.1 100w mono amps, Xtant 6.1 to run an eD 13av.2, all Stinger wiring and Raammat deadener.
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