Balanced vs Unbalanced Connectors - Is there really a difference in sound quality?

Jeffrey_B
Jeffrey_B Posts: 21
edited July 2005 in Electronics
I am looking to use my Sony ES30 receiver as a pre/pro for now and focus on getting a separate amp (Parasound, B&K, etc.) and then at some future time, replace the Sony with a real pre/pro. Many amps I've reseacrhed have both balanced and unbalanced inputs and I am wondering if this needs to be an issue for me to consider for when I upgrade to a dedicated pre/pro in the future. For instance, the Parasound New Classic 5250 amp has just unbalanced (RCA) connectors, which is OK for now with my Sony receiver; the B&K has both balanced and unbalanced. Many pre/pros have both balanced and unbalanced connectors and when I upgrade the Sony eventually, I would like to take advantage of this...IF there is a real advantage in sound quality. So, should I be considering having BOTH balanced and unbalanced inputs on any amp decision I make or is it really a non-issue. The amp and receiver/preprp are next to each other so long runs are not part of the equation. I've heard both sides of the story - no difference in sound quality, and distinct difference in sound quality. Which is it? Thanks! Jeff
Post edited by Jeffrey_B on
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Comments

  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited July 2005
    Originally posted by Jeffrey_B
    The amp and receiver/pre-amp are next to each other so long runs are not part of the equation.

    If you hear a difference, it's probably in your head.

    The XLR type connection is typically used when long runs must be used. The benefit is usually better rejection of interference, but that would depend on what RCA IC it was being compared to, as some are much better than others.

    Go RCA.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
  • beardog03
    beardog03 Posts: 5,550
    edited July 2005
    good question...

    I have balanced inputs on my amp, but not on my pre or source

    \
    **edit**

    Another example of me typing before I read the answer...
    didn`t pay much attention in school either.!!

    :rolleyes:
    Cary SLP-98L F1 DC Pre Amp (Jag Blue)
    Parasound HCA-3500
    Cary Audio V12 amp (Jag Red)
    Polk Audio Xm Reciever (Autographed by THE MAN Himself) :cool:
    Magnum Dynalab MD-102 Analog Tuna
    Jolida JD-100 CDP
    Polk Audio LSi9 Speaks (ebony)
    SVS PC-Ultra Sub
    AQ Bedrock Speaker Cables (Bi-Wired)
    MIT Shotgun S1 I/C`s
    AQ Black Thunder Sub Cables
    PS Audio Plus Power Cords
    Magnum Dynalab ST-2 FM Antenna
    Sanus Cherry wood Speak Stands
    Adona AV45CS3 / 3 Tier Rack (Black /Gold)


    :cool:
  • DarqueKnight
    DarqueKnight Posts: 6,765
    edited July 2005
    Any differences between the two will depend on the cables used and the equipment they are connected to.

    The only way you will know for sure is to experiment.
    Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
  • marker
    marker Posts: 1,084
    edited July 2005
    If you have true balanced inputs/outputs, then by all means, take advantage of them.
  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited July 2005
    He currently doesn't have the ability to utilize XLR....it was just a question. In addition, remember that the term "True" and "Balanced" when it comes to this type of IC is a marketing term. The physical design is just a design....the idea is only accepted if you accept cable theory and it's application.

    I agree with DK's comment, in that it's more of a cable specific reaction than the actual connection. I didn't comment on this in particular, as he didn't ask about cables, just the connection.

    I love XLR's personally, just because of the security and integrity of the actual connection v.s. standard RCA. If I go RCA, I prefer locking RCA barrels, period. There is no real reason behind it, just personal.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
  • marker
    marker Posts: 1,084
    edited July 2005
    Dohh! I guess I should have actually read the thread first, huh? :rolleyes:
  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited July 2005
    Marker - I re-read it just to make sure I wasn't crazy based on your comment :) I'm sure he will appreciate all the replies that are created by his thread.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
  • marker
    marker Posts: 1,084
    edited July 2005
    No, I just flat out got busted! I'll admit that I didn't read nothing but the title.

    However, after trying balanced cables, I highly endorse them.
  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited July 2005
    That's what it's all about, rock on, Mr. Balanced ;)
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
  • DarqueKnight
    DarqueKnight Posts: 6,765
    edited July 2005
    If you are going to run balanced, the maximum benefit will be realized if you run balanced all the way through: from source component to preamp to power amp.

    Jeffrey may find this thread of interest:

    http://clubpolk.polkaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30095
    Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,793
    edited July 2005
    XLR smokes RCA. Maybe not major audible differences. XLR is so much easier to plug in (keep plugged in) and all that.

    IMO

    I wish all my components had XLR.
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited July 2005
    Originally posted by Vr3MxStyler2k3
    XLR smokes RCA. Maybe not major audible differences. XLR is so much easier to plug in (keep plugged in) and all that.

    IMO

    I wish all my components had XLR.

    The XLR smokes RCA and your substance comment is essentially that it's easier to plug in? I will presume you have been looking at too much teen ****.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,793
    edited July 2005
    Smokes in the sense of connectability. Yes.

    When something is easier to plug up, and stay secure throughout its time of being plugged in - its a major + in my book. Might not be for you but that is ok.

    I also like the fact that there is no signal loss. Even if it is a short distance.
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • marker
    marker Posts: 1,084
    edited July 2005
    Originally posted by Vr3MxStyler2k3
    I also like the fact that there is no signal loss. Even if it is a short distance.

    Huh?? :confused: Short distance? Loss is greater over a longer distance.
  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited July 2005
    Originally posted by Vr3MxStyler2k3
    Smokes in the sense of connectability. Yes.

    When something is easier to plug up, and stay secure throughout its time of being plugged in - its a major + in my book. Might not be for you but that is ok.

    I also like the fact that there is no signal loss. Even if it is a short distance.

    I think I've had an RCA wiggle loose ONCE in 20 years, and that was my own fault....do you have a problem?

    There is signal loss, period, it's simply the nature of cable. You introduce LOSS when you terminate, period, regardless of the type of termination.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
  • beardog03
    beardog03 Posts: 5,550
    edited July 2005
    problem for me is that my amp is the only component that accepts XLR`s..

    I`m getting a Jolida 100 CDP in about two weeks and it doesn`t have them either..

    None of my pre`s have them either..

    I would really like to check them out ...just out of curiosity (sp)

    but I do agree with you on the MIT type ends of the I/C`s

    they rock...
    Cary SLP-98L F1 DC Pre Amp (Jag Blue)
    Parasound HCA-3500
    Cary Audio V12 amp (Jag Red)
    Polk Audio Xm Reciever (Autographed by THE MAN Himself) :cool:
    Magnum Dynalab MD-102 Analog Tuna
    Jolida JD-100 CDP
    Polk Audio LSi9 Speaks (ebony)
    SVS PC-Ultra Sub
    AQ Bedrock Speaker Cables (Bi-Wired)
    MIT Shotgun S1 I/C`s
    AQ Black Thunder Sub Cables
    PS Audio Plus Power Cords
    Magnum Dynalab ST-2 FM Antenna
    Sanus Cherry wood Speak Stands
    Adona AV45CS3 / 3 Tier Rack (Black /Gold)


    :cool:
  • DarqueKnight
    DarqueKnight Posts: 6,765
    edited July 2005
    Good night. I hope this will be settled once and for all when I check back tomorrow afternoon.:p
    Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,793
    edited July 2005
    Originally posted by dorokusai
    I think I've had an RCA wiggle loose ONCE in 20 years, and that was my own fault....do you have a problem?

    There is signal loss, period, it's simply the nature of cable. You introduce LOSS when you terminate, period, regardless of the type of termination.

    Of course... that will always be the case. But XLR have less loss right? Always a +...

    I don't have a problem with any connections coming loose. XLR just is much easier to plug in and disconnect and it is much more secure. RCA's have that death grip that really gets on my nerves when I need to unplug something.
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited July 2005
    Originally posted by Vr3MxStyler2k3
    Of course... that will always be the case. But XLR have less loss right? Always a +...

    I don't have a problem with any connections coming loose. XLR just is much easier to plug in and disconnect and it is much more secure. RCA's have that death grip that really gets on my nerves when I need to unplug something.

    The initial LOSS issue is entirely dependent on the actual cable, as each cable performs in a different way. The termination introduces another variable into the equation as it CREATES additional LOSS into a cable and/or interconnect. It's a fact, and it never changes....a termination is simply a termination. The subsequent values are all dependent on that actual termination. It's the single most imortant factor in cabling, as the actual cable is a given and often a known value.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,793
    edited July 2005
    I get it Mark ;)

    Every cable has LOSS ;)

    I still like XLR more, is that ok? :)

    One more smiley and I'm done ;)
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited July 2005
    Trey - Don't patronize me, get educated. I subscribe to cable theory, just like yourself. The troubleshooting of cables happens to be one of my job descriptions and daily functions.

    If you like XLR, rock on :) You're miles above most people when it comes to audio.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
  • VR3
    VR3 Posts: 28,793
    edited July 2005
    Well I already know that where connectors are soldered on is where most of the noise is introduced.

    That is why those connectors Sean used on the Venoms is supposedly better.

    I was just under the impression that XLR had less loss due to the design ya know?
    - Not Tom ::::::: Any system can play Diana Krall. Only the best can play Limp Bizkit.
  • michael_w
    michael_w Posts: 2,813
    edited July 2005
    I've never tried xlr but I do really really enjoy locking RCAs. The way they slide off and on so easily without any strain on your gear and then tighten down is great and there is no way they will be coming off.

    Hey beardog lemme know how the JoLidia works out for ya... I've been pondering one for the near to great future :)
  • beardog03
    beardog03 Posts: 5,550
    edited July 2005
    absolutely...

    The guy I got my Njoeb 4000 from is holding the Jolida until I come up on some cash...

    Don`t really need it, as my Njoeb is the best CDP I have ever had the pleasure of hearing...

    If it doesn`t beat my Njoeb by a large margine , I will sell it for what I pay for it.....eventualy !
    Cary SLP-98L F1 DC Pre Amp (Jag Blue)
    Parasound HCA-3500
    Cary Audio V12 amp (Jag Red)
    Polk Audio Xm Reciever (Autographed by THE MAN Himself) :cool:
    Magnum Dynalab MD-102 Analog Tuna
    Jolida JD-100 CDP
    Polk Audio LSi9 Speaks (ebony)
    SVS PC-Ultra Sub
    AQ Bedrock Speaker Cables (Bi-Wired)
    MIT Shotgun S1 I/C`s
    AQ Black Thunder Sub Cables
    PS Audio Plus Power Cords
    Magnum Dynalab ST-2 FM Antenna
    Sanus Cherry wood Speak Stands
    Adona AV45CS3 / 3 Tier Rack (Black /Gold)


    :cool:
  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited July 2005
    Originally posted by Vr3MxStyler2k3
    Well I already know that where connectors are soldered on is where most of the noise is introduced.

    That is why those connectors Sean used on the Venoms is supposedly better.

    I was just under the impression that XLR had less loss due to the design ya know?

    It's not exactly a noise issue, it's a loss issue, they are not the same conditions. The noise or interference is often external, not internal. If it is internal, it's often a component issue, not a cable issue. I digress, in the fact that a bad IC can completely screw up a rig....there are alot of variables to an audio problem. I can't possibly cover every scenario.

    The idea that an XLR cable reacts differently to the world is just theory. I subscribe to cable theory, but the XLR v.s. RCA issue just holds no actual data for me. I've run them, and my results found no benefit....but your results may, and apparently have exhibited positive results. I would use XLR's if I was able, simply because I could.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
  • Jeffrey_B
    Jeffrey_B Posts: 21
    edited July 2005
    Well, thank you all for the input (no pun intended). I didn't realize this was such a controversial topic! I am leaning towards the Parasound New Classic 5250 amp (5 channel, 385watts into 4 ohms) for my Polk LSi's. The amp has only unbalanced (RCA) connectors which is OK for me - now - because I'll be using my Sony ES receiver as a prepro (and it naturally, has RCA preouts). It was just that down the line, when I do upgrade to a real prepro, most have both RCA and XLR connectors and I was thinking ahead with regards to the amp. From what I've read on various forums, it appears that there is no real difference in sound ("perceived" maybe) and so I won't let the connectors factor into my amp purchase.

    I too have never had a RCA connector come loose. My prepro/amp combo will be on the same audio rack, one shelf apart. Bettercables has a nice 5- and 7-channel RCA connector.

    Thanks again for everyone's input. JEFF
  • HBombToo
    HBombToo Posts: 5,256
    edited July 2005
    Originally posted by beardog03
    problem for me is that my amp is the only component that accepts XLR`s..

    I`m getting a Jolida 100 CDP in about two weeks and it doesn`t have them either..

    None of my pre`s have them either..

    I would really like to check them out ...just out of curiosity (sp)

    but I do agree with you on the MIT type ends of the I/C`s

    they rock...

    Russmann loaned me a very nice pair of XLR to RCA adapters that would work in your case.

    Shoot him a PM.

    HBomb
    ***WAREMTAE***
  • unc2701
    unc2701 Posts: 3,587
    edited July 2005
    You don't want to use RCA-XLR adapters unless it's an absolute requirement for your gear... It's not a balanced connection and you'll just be adding more crap into the signal path. You'll get better results with some quality RCA's instead. Also- the sensitivity on the XLR inputs on power amps are frequently 4v instead of 1v or 2v so you'll have to crank your source/ preamp more for the same output.
    Gallo Ref 3.1 : Bryston 4b SST : Musical fidelity CD Pre : VPI HW-19
    Gallo Ref AV, Frankengallo Ref 3, LC60i : Bryston 9b SST : Meridian 565
    Jordan JX92s : MF X-T100 : Xray v8
    Backburner:Krell KAV-300i
  • HBombToo
    HBombToo Posts: 5,256
    edited July 2005
    there is no arguement there unc but his preamps do not have xlr so this would be his only way to check out his new toys....

    HBomb
    ***WAREMTAE***
  • steveinaz
    steveinaz Posts: 19,538
    edited July 2005
    I echo Doro's sentiments. XLR was designed for very long runs for it's rejection of noise/hum. It's over-kill and costly in home audio, and has no audible benefit over RCA.
    Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Shop Spkrs: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2