jl sub question

exalted512

heres something new to the majority of this thread, lets try looking at the facts:
http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/DUMAX/JL-10W7.pdf
http://www.adireaudio.com/Files/DUMAX/BrahmaDumax.pdf
look at the curves for yourself, the brahma stays damn near linear throughout its 27mm of x-max, whereas the w7 starts dropping off after 22mm of the 26.75 it has.

and to say the w7 is a better sounding sub than the w6(i think someone hinted this) is absurb. the w7 has a really dry, lifeless sound to it. the brahmas motor structure allows you to vastly underpower it as long as you compensate for it in box volume. i mean honestly, the brahma stays more linear throughout ALL of its excursion, handles more power...and does all this at a third of the price-is there really a comparison??

JL is teh suck. You mention they only use 4 screws that they didnt design. whoopty freakin doo. Maybe thats why theyre so expensive even though theyve already had 10 years of tooling that should have dropped the price DRAMATICALLY. Nope, that wont happen. Polk opens the momo sub line and they started out at $280 for a single sub. By the end of their time, they were going for $100 in a box with a grill. Tooling made it initially high, but Polk, being the respectable, putting customers first company they are decide to pass their savings to the consumer.

Take Adire. They use common parts to make a better product. Its not that hard to engineer a bunch of parts to make a high performance car, but to take a honda, use the same parts and come out with a mercedez, THAT takes skill
-Cody

MacLeod

Just wait, 10 years from now some dude in some forum will be talking about how Adire is **** and Brand X is the king and Im sure he'll have plenty of charts and graphs to show how 90% of the car audio community just doesnt get it. Hell, MTX has tons of numbers that shows how their subs smoke JL too.

This also makes Toxis' point perfectly. If JL was the bane of subwooferdom, then why is everybody trying to take em out? If JL sucked so bad, everybody would know it and Adire, MTX and RF would have no need to take out full page ads in magazines stating, "you just think JL is better because youve been brainwashed! See, we have better numbers." I didnt notice Adire doing any comparisons with Crunch or Alphasonik subs.

And when Adire starts selling their subs in shops rather than out of some dudes basement, then we'll see how cheap they are.

This whole thing is starting to bore me. JL Audio has done more to further advance car audio than any other single manufacturer sans Alpine, their products have won countless awards and have carried countless SQ competitors to the winners circle. Why the very mention of their name induces such hatred and seething rage simply escapes me.

Cody, I love ya bro but we just aint ever gonna see eye to eye on this.

Toxis

MacLeod wrote:

I didnt notice Adire doing any comparisons with Crunch or Alphasonik subs.

EXACTLY my point. But obviously JL's **** when everyone wants to beat them. Wait... if they truly are such ****, why is everyone trying to beat them instead of realizing how easy that would be? Because they ARE a competitor in the market and I'm sorry, they own it. They have the reputation that alpine has with their decks. Obviously, that's saying something good. The 'pine has been around and been huge for many o' years... I'd be proud if I was them.

I remember when I sold JL a few years back and they had back to back awards for being the most reliable subs on the market, OF ANY COMPANY! #1 was the W0 and #2 was the W3, again back to back years! Their cheapest sub is the most reliable one on the market... dear god, they suck! I mean, what kind of business are they running? How are you supposed to sell more speakers if they never fail? Whew... they need new engineers... they're gonna go bankrupt.

But then again, people hate imports and look how damn reliable those are.

Toxis

exalted512 wrote:

Polk opens the momo sub line and they started out at $280 for a single sub.
-Cody

But they didn't do well for the longest time simply because they couldn't get a box to work right with them. Hell, the box they designed and sent out themselves blew the subs. Once the subs were broken in (well over a month of use even) and you start to get on 'em a tad... POP! "Why's my enclosure filled with smoke?" Sorry, but that's not a feature.

PoweredByDodge

the original momo 10's and 12's never came with an enclosure, nor was there ever one "designed" for them. all boxes were buyer built or shop built, unless you bought a prefab q logic or something of that nature. the only problem with these subs was a slightly short tinsel lead that would snap - soldering the tinsel back with an extra inch or so of 16 gauge worked like a champ.

the 2nd generation momo came with a pre-fabbed plexi box. the box was never an issue... it was actually a very nice box. the first shipments had poor glue on the surrounds. that was the only issue. momo's were never meant to be over powered... while you COULD overpower them, and i for one reccomended it, it was "at your own risk" and you had to use common sense.

we're now on our 3rd generation of momo which is actually not a descendant of the original 2 incarnations. rather, it is a brand new animal that is remiscant of older DB and DX subwoofers in its attributes, but with improved usability (dual voice coil options, the addition of a 15" model), improved stability, and an all new build and design. it's no more a "Momo" than it is an original DB. it is its own animal. i like the new momo series, dont' get me wrong, i'm just pointing out that its a new and different sub.

Toxis

ok, so I was incorrect. I thought the one with the prefab plexi box was the first gen. Never the less, I sold at least a couple dozen of those boxes and every one blew within 2 months. Every person I sold them to was not the kind of abuser who'd just get in and crank it, they knew what it meant to take care of the sub and to break it in. Hmmm... I'm a fan of polk so I'm not trying to bash, just stating my experiences.

MacLeod

Yeah, the MM12's did have a problem. We've got more complaints on here than you can shake a stick at about them assuming room temperature rather quickly and without much power.

I love the MM2 series and think they are as good as any sub costing $300! Ive had mine running now for a week and a half and it sounds great. Smooth, musical with good impact and gets really low!

Break in time? Well I did take it easy on the volume for a day or 2. I never break in subs. I dont listen to bass heavy music much except for some metal with double bass in it so I dont worry about it too much. I do try to keep the volume down the first couple days til the new sub gets its bearings.

exalted512

im a big fan of polk too but 1st and 2nd generation momo subs were useless if you ran anything more than 400 watts to them
-Cody

MacLeod

The new ones seem to be much more durable. There probably havent been more than 5 complaints come thru here about blown MM2 subs.

I hope so, cause Im overpowering mine by nearly 100 watts!

Thom

The enclosed subs from years ago (with the plexi backs) were MM10 and MM12. When the first shipments hit dealers we got reports immediately of subs blowing left and right. The problem was a bad glue bond on the spider, if I remember correctly. It might take 10 seconds or 10 hours, but most of them came loose. This is why woofers were jumping into the grills (that sub didn't move enough to hit it normally). After the hundreds and hundreds of questionable woofers did that, we had a hard time getting anyone to give the fixed ones a chance. And the legacy lives on...

There were guys who beat the crap out of the woofers and had no problems, and some people are still using them. But there was an unusually high failure rate when introduced.

PoweredByDodge

Thom wrote:

There were guys who beat the crap out of the woofers and had no problems,

... same went for the original momo's - by best friend has two of the original momo 10's that he's been romping on for years and they sound basically as good as they did the day he bought them.

i still remember the old slogan, "this is the sub that gets the girls", vividly emblazoned on the polk audio website description of them. that sub was a ground breaker when it first came out. the quality of the build was insane - detailed allen head screws, a nicely engraved back cover on the magnet. it was artwork.

wow - all this "subs of yester-year" is making me feel really old.

Toxis

the original momo's are making you feel old? What about when they first released the DB subs? I had a lot of buds with those puppies. Want to go back further? I owned a set of JL W1's for many years before they released the W0. Anyone remember the old Petra's Hyperthrows? hahaha Or what about when Ground Zero first came to the market? The Pink Clarion subs? I could go on for days... and I'm only 25. hahaha

PoweredByDodge

I had just gotten into audio when the DB products came out... actually I think a year before that. My first stuff was all Pioneer bottom barrel entry level. After I got a feel for what I was doing (at least I thought so at the time, now I look back and go "wow, I knew nothing" - and i'm sure in 5 years I'll look back at today and go "wow, I still didn't know that much") I snapped up the DB 6x9's when they had only been on the market a short while.

Audio changes so much, everything does. It's just crazy that one minute you can know the specs of most of the mainstream company's products in your head, and 6 months later, that's all useless info because it's all changed. wild.

exalted512

i mustve gotten 6 bad subs...the thing that really sucks is im going to take a huge hit trying to sell these now. i originally bought them for 279 and now theyre selling for 100 in a box. hell, IMO 100 for both because theyre used in kind of a **** deal...
-Cody

MacLeod

The things that stick in my memory most are:

Virtually impossible to find a 4 channel amp.
50 watt power boosters w/5 band EQ.
MTX Terminators.
Circuit City having the best installers in town.

Toxis

I remember the ol' DB 6x9's. When they first came out, even before actually, my dad knew the local polk rep and bought a set from him at some stupid low price. The serial number was 000000(bunch of zeros)0667. The serial numbers started at 500. Of course, I thought I was cool for getting a set of speakers so new before they even came out. Those puppies were bad ****!!! Hit as hard as my brother's POS 10's, Impact if anyone remembers those. They were in truck wedges with Piezo tweeters on top. Damn they sounded like ****.

1996blackmax

I still have two very old Coustic amps . The older one is a Coustic 380, and the newer of the two is a Coustic AMP-460 Power Logic. The features from the owner's manual are:

Dual Pulse-Width Modulated (PWM) HEXFET Switching Power Supply

Stable into 2-Ohms

High Current/High Voltage Fully Complementary Output Stage

Multi-Channel Circuit Design (MCD)

High/Low Impedance Input

Adjustable Input Sensitivity: Pre-Amp (250 mV), Speaker (2.5V)

Acoustic Equalization Switch (@ 45 Hz and 15 KHz): 0dB, +6dB, +12 dB

Power Source: (DC Negative Ground) 14.4V

Maximum Input Current: 50A

Output Impedance: 2,4 or 8 Ohms

Maximum Power-
Mono: 250 Watts x 1 (Rated Power 20-20,000 Hz, 4 Ohms, 0.2% THD in mono mode)
Setereo: 98 Watts x 2 (Rated Power 20-20,000 Hz, 4 Ohms, 0.09% THD in stereo)
Dynamic Power (IHF): One Channel at 4 Ohms (150 Watts)
3-Channel: 180 Watts x1, 45 Watts x 2

Harmonic Distortion (Rated Power at 1,000 Hz) <0.05%

S/N Ratio: >95dB

Frequency Response: (1 Watt, +3 dB) 10 Hz -55 KHz

Not too bad for a 1989 amplifier . I actually had this hooked up a couple of years ago, still worked fine. Had it in there for about a month. It was driving a 12" Kicker Solobaric with it.

95Honda

I see a whole lot of misconceptions in this thread.....

Toxis

^ Such as?

Anyone remember or still have an old Lanzar OptiDRIVE 50 (or called the Opti50)? That thing was a HOSS!!!

MacLeod

I remember that Coustic! That was the biggest beast they offered.

I still have a Power Logic Amp 160. Rated at 30x2 but was much more.

PoweredByDodge

dude - db 6x9's were SLICK. i had 4 of them in a "coffin" behind the back seat of my first 88 ram. stupid radio shack 4 channel on them... 65 watts each... POUNDED. oh it was great **** - then again, i imagine if i heard the same setup now i'd be like "um... dude, i can't live with this" - only because i'm so bass hungry now.

but we shall see... the afore mentioned polk gear on order... well... *shrug* gotta "Restore" it as much as possible... 4 momo 6x9's... going to bi-amp them with two big honkin 2 channels. god i'm going to hate it and love it at the same time. hehehehehe.

95Honda

Few things-

Power ratings are not an effective means of comparing subwoofers. The only power consideration you should have is that you won’t exceed the thermal capacity of the motor assembly while achieving maximum cone travel in your particular alignment. Power ratings are not indicative of output levels in any way.

Xmax. Xmax is one way linear cone travel. It has nothing to due with power levels and is going to take a completely different amount of drive (power) in every alignment to reach its furthest point. Xmax of an underhung motor is ½ the coil winding height minus the top-plate thickness, and then most add 10-15%; any more than this and the 3rd order harmonics will become audible. Dumax rates it as one way cone travel to a point of pre-determined drop of BL. Underhung motors are ½ of the top-plate minus the coil height. Every conventional motor is a variation of the previous mentioned topologies.

Xsusp. Xsusp has nothing to do with xmax. Xsusp is the amount of maximum one way cone travel. Xsusp is usually, and should be more than the xmax in order to accommodate full cone travel. Many things limit the xsusp including the Spider, Surround, tinsel leads, motor clearance, etc. It is not uncommon for the xsusp to be 2-3 times more than xmax in some subwoofers. When you hear a woofer bottom out, you have reached the maximum one-way xsusp. It has nothing to due with power alone like xmax; the box alignment is one of the biggest determining factors in how easily you can reach this point.

Bottoming out the sub. If the sub isn’t broke, this is not a bad thing at all. All that it means is that your alignment is efficient enough to reach full displacement with the available power you have, it is not indicative of a defective subwoofer in the least. It can also happen when you choose an extremely poor alignment that is not matched properly to the electro-mechanical properties of the driver you are using.

No one single US manufacturer builds every part of their loudspeakers in house, some build most in-house, some build none in house. Usually the more that is built in house, the higher the cost. JL subs can be expensive; they have a lot of custom parts fabricated. Adire has subs that are on par with the JL subs but at a cheaper cost because of the use of more commonly available parts. I have seen build houses producing drivers for famous manufacturers, and believe me, you wouldn’t believe all the stuff they build for other companies. It’s all part of the business, along with the marketing hype.

All of the manufacturers tout their own special way of extracting maximum performance from their design; some have different approaches than others, and they all share at least some of the same technology. They just found different ways to exploit one aspect of the design.

90% of the subwoofers perceived sound lies in box alignment.

If you like the way your sub sounds, and it will play loud enough for you, you have made the right choice, no matter what anyone tells you…

Just a few cents from me….

exalted512

x-max has a lot to "due" with power ratings. the x-max of lets say a jl w7 in a 1ft^3 box with 500 watts will be less than the same sub in the same enclosure with 750w.

when did anyone say anything about xsusp?

some subs physically cant bottom out
-Cody

MacLeod

Xsusp? Why is it everytime I read that, I read it as "wassup"?

1996blackmax

MacLeod wrote:

Xsusp? Why is it everytime I read that, I read it as "wassup"?

Cuz it duz

Toxis

MacLeod wrote:

Xsusp? Why is it everytime I read that, I read it as "wassup"?

because you've been online for way to long?

95Honda

exalted512 wrote:

x-max has a lot to "due" with power ratings. the x-max of lets say a jl w7 in a 1ft^3 box with 500 watts will be less than the same sub in the same enclosure with 750w.

when did anyone say anything about xsusp?

some subs physically cant bottom out
-Cody

xmax is a static rating by itself.

The amount of power required to bring a subwoofer to full excursion (or a the amount of xmax used) is dependant upon box size and power.

You misunderstood what I said..... Read it again.

"Xmax is one way linear cone travel. It has nothing to due with power levels and is going to take a completely different amount of drive (power) in every alignment to reach its furthest point"