HiFi Sucks

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madmax
madmax Posts: 12,434
edited July 2005 in 2 Channel Audio
I stopped and heard a band practicing this morning. No matter how good the audio system the drum set never sounds like it does in person.
madmax
Vinyl, the final frontier...

Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
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  • shack
    shack Posts: 11,154
    edited July 2005
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    Conversly...I quit going to a lot of concerts because the "live" stuff sucked. Bad venues, bad acoutics, off night for the performers, whatever, I can live with Hi-Fi just fine.
    "Just because you’re offended doesn’t mean you’re right." - Ricky Gervais

    "For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase

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  • Early B.
    Early B. Posts: 7,900
    edited July 2005
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    And it shouldn't. And it never will. Hell, why would you even want your system to sound "live?" In fact, "live" sucks, not your audio system. And the worst live music of all are bands.

    Live music should try to emulate your system, not vice versa.:p
    HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50” LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub

    "God grooves with tubes."
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  • audiobliss
    audiobliss Posts: 12,518
    edited July 2005
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    I think y'all are missing his point. I don't think he's referring to the 'synergy', if you will: the balance between instruments, their presence within the music, and just overall balance. I think he's more saying that no matter how good your system, a recorded cymbal won't ever capture all the little details that a 'live' cymbal has. Of course the overall composure of recordings is going to be superior to live stuff; they've been recorded and remastered! But the tonality, 'crispness', and other small characteristics of instruments will never be fully reproduced accurately by any audio system.

    Now, I think that it is awful close!
    George Grand wrote: »
    Jstas wrote: »
    Simple question. If you had a cool million bucks, what would you do with it?
    Wonder WTF happened to the rest of my money.
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  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    edited July 2005
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    Lets put it this way. Take a person who has never heard a radio, tv or HiFi system, play a quick drum riff (or any other instrument) for him, then let him listen to it on a present day HiFi system. I'm sure you would get a YUK response on the HiFi. The re-production is totally aweful. All sorts of sounds are missing and of course the dynamics are way off.

    I never said anything directly about live. But, for the record I think there are different types of live.

    1: All acoustic instruments
    2: Mixture of acoustic instruments and individual amplified instruments
    3: Either of the above through a PA system

    As for what kind of live I like? #1 or #2. I can no longer stand the thought of #3. Of course #1 or #2 can suck too if not set up correctly.

    Regarding my post, I was listening to #2.



    I really can't imagine anyone not wanting to re-produce faithfully the sound of a good drum setup, other percussion, a B3 or a Strat through a Marshall or a brass section. OR a combination. :)


    madmax


    Edit: Yes, audiobliss is correct.

    I always wonder what the top notch audio systems would sound like to me if I had never heard one before. I think non-audiophiles are the best people to evaluate a system. If they become infatuated with the sound then you are probably doing ok. If they say it is nice and walk away, well, I think that says it all.
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,808
    edited July 2005
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    Ya know Chuck, you're right! I'm throwing all my gear in the dumpster.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • disneyjoe7
    disneyjoe7 Posts: 11,435
    edited July 2005
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    Originally posted by F1nut
    Ya know Chuck, you're right! I'm throwing all my gear in the dumpster.


    Stop I be right over, I'll help you put that gear in the dumpster / my trunk. ;)

    Speakers
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    RT800i's Rears
    Sub Paradigm Servo 15

    Electronics
    Conrad Johnson PV-5 pre-amp
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  • audiobliss
    audiobliss Posts: 12,518
    edited July 2005
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    I got dibs on that dumpster!!!!!!

    :D
    George Grand wrote: »
    Jstas wrote: »
    Simple question. If you had a cool million bucks, what would you do with it?
    Wonder WTF happened to the rest of my money.
    In Use
    PS3, Yamaha CDR-HD1300, Plex, Amazon Fire TV Gen 2
    Pioneer Elite VSX-52, Parasound HCA-1000A
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    Epson 8700UB
    In Storage
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    Rotel RCD-02, Yamaha KX-W900U, Sony ST-S500ES, Denon DP-7F
    Pro-Ject Phono Box MKII, Parasound P/HP-850, ASL Wave 20 monoblocks
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  • disneyjoe7
    disneyjoe7 Posts: 11,435
    edited July 2005
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    Originally posted by audiobliss
    I got dibs on that dumpster!!!!!!

    :D


    Don't need to worry about that Dumpster, it's in my Car.

    Speakers
    Carver Amazing Fronts
    CS400i Center
    RT800i's Rears
    Sub Paradigm Servo 15

    Electronics
    Conrad Johnson PV-5 pre-amp
    Parasound Halo A23
    Pioneer 84TXSi AVR
    Pioneer 79Avi DVD
    Sony CX400 CD changer
    Panasonic 42-PX60U Plasma
    WMC Win7 32bit HD DVR


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  • polkatese
    polkatese Posts: 6,767
    edited July 2005
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    no one, and I meant no one, touch those ****. The MF is mine, comprende.
    I am sorry, I have no opinion on the matter. I am sure you do. So, don't mind me, I just want to talk audio and pie.
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  • audiobliss
    audiobliss Posts: 12,518
    edited July 2005
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    Originally posted by polkatese
    comprende?

    Yo no hablo espanol. :D
    George Grand wrote: »
    Jstas wrote: »
    Simple question. If you had a cool million bucks, what would you do with it?
    Wonder WTF happened to the rest of my money.
    In Use
    PS3, Yamaha CDR-HD1300, Plex, Amazon Fire TV Gen 2
    Pioneer Elite VSX-52, Parasound HCA-1000A
    Klipsch RF-82ii, RC-62ii, RS-42ii, RW-10d
    Epson 8700UB
    In Storage
    [Home Audio]
    Rotel RCD-02, Yamaha KX-W900U, Sony ST-S500ES, Denon DP-7F
    Pro-Ject Phono Box MKII, Parasound P/HP-850, ASL Wave 20 monoblocks
    Klipsch RF-35, RB-51ii
    [Car Audio]
    Pioneer Premier DEH-P860MP, Memphis 16-MCA3004, Boston Acoustic RC520
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  • Early B.
    Early B. Posts: 7,900
    edited July 2005
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    Hi Fi should be taken at the level it is, reproduced sound. Any expectation to achieve performance akin to the 'real thing' is a hopeless attempt for even the modestly wealthy.
    Dub this the quote of the week.
    I really can't imagine anyone not wanting to re-produce faithfully the sound of a good drum setup, other percussion, a B3 or a Strat through a Marshall or a brass section. OR a combination.
    Can you imagine Early B.? I went to a concert last year that featured my favorite singer and her band. She sounded wonderful and the band was great, but I preferred to listen to her CDs rather than listening to the live performance.

    Why, you ask? Because at any time I can control how I want to hear it. If I want more, bass, I can simply turn a knob. If I want more detail, I can swap out tubes. If I want it louder, I can pump up the volume. If I want more impact, I can swap out speakers. Besides, my system can faithfully produce the sound of virtually any instrument to the extent that I am happy with the way it sounds. For me, it doesn't have to sound 100% real for it to be appreciated. Ninety-five percent is more than adequate. ;)
    HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50” LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub

    "God grooves with tubes."
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  • Polkersince85
    Polkersince85 Posts: 2,883
    edited July 2005
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    Remember the ole " Is it Live or Is it Memorex" ads. They were touting the tape as being as good as being there. " Wannabes"
    The eye/ear coordination of seeing the fingers on the frets and hearing the 24" drum in front of you cannot be reproduced except in some of the systems most folks can't touch. I agree that seldom the stage is properly set up to sound like "stereo" but every now and then you find a small stage and get in the golden triangle and there is no system that can reproduce it. IMO. It's still nice to throw on your favorite artist and wish you were there.
    >
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  • marker
    marker Posts: 1,084
    edited July 2005
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    OK, let's take a live 4 piece rock band for example, let's say AC/DC.

    They probably have Marshall amplifiers with Celestion full range drivers in them for both guitars and the bass. The drums are acoustic, but probably have triggers. Then it is all pumped through the PA sytem in the venue too which probably have some kind of pro series speakers and amps from the bands soundboard.

    Not counting the drums, but for the guitars and bass amps, some home speakers are probably of as good or even better quality than some of those the bands use.
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  • DarqueKnight
    DarqueKnight Posts: 6,765
    edited July 2005
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    Originally posted by madmax
    I stopped and heard a band practicing this morning. No matter how good the audio system the drum set never sounds like it does in person.
    madmax

    That is because recording engineers add a lot of compression to the drum track. That was neccessary during the days of vinyl LP's because the limitations of the recording process and the physical limitations of the LP format didn't allow for wide dynamic range.

    Todays digital recording techniques can capture the wide dynamic range of hot drum tracks. Unfortunately many, if not most, recording engineers still use techniques more suited for analog recording.

    I don't think it is Hi Fi that sucks as much as the sorry and incompetant recording techniques used today.
    Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
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  • George Grand
    George Grand Posts: 12,258
    edited July 2005
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    The early, Acoustic Research (AR) "Live vs Recorded" demonstrations proved beyond a doubt, that EVEN BACK THEN, using AR equipment, "Live vs Recorded" could be virtually indistinguishable to an audience.

    BUT, I seem to remember AR using a lot of stringed instruments.

    I kind of agree with Max. Before he was born, I made this statement:

    "Get the greatest sound reproduction equipment in the world. Record a 6 year old kid bashing away on a set of drums. Switch between live and recorded, and the limits of the sound reproduction equipment will be obvious."

    George Grand (of the Jersey Grands)
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  • TroyD
    TroyD Posts: 13,077
    edited July 2005
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    I seem to recall a story that George relayed to me about Bob Carver visiting a mad scientist type trying to recreate the sound of a snip of pair of scissors with literally a ton of amplification and still couldn't do it.

    BDT
    I plan for the future. - F1Nut
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  • Dennis Gardner
    Dennis Gardner Posts: 4,860
    edited July 2005
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    I have a hard time telling "live from recorded" especially when it concerns Ashlee Simpson.:D That is a case of too little compression.
    HT Optoma HD25 LV on 80" DIY Screen, Anthem MRX 300 Receiver, Pioneer Elite BDP 51FD Polk CS350LS, Polk SDA1C, Polk FX300, Polk RT55, Dual EBS Adire Shiva 320watt tuned to 17hz, ICs-DIY Twisted Prs, Speaker-Raymond Cable

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  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    edited July 2005
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    Sorry I haven't posted for awhile. I've been hanging around F1Nuts trash can. No luck... :mad:

    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
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  • disneyjoe7
    disneyjoe7 Posts: 11,435
    edited July 2005
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    Ho is that you standing next to me... no audio stuff yet, but that chicken leftovers weren’t that bad were they?

    Speakers
    Carver Amazing Fronts
    CS400i Center
    RT800i's Rears
    Sub Paradigm Servo 15

    Electronics
    Conrad Johnson PV-5 pre-amp
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    WMC Win7 32bit HD DVR


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  • hoosier21
    hoosier21 Posts: 4,408
    edited July 2005
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    Live is the best you will ever hear.

    HiFi is a joke compared to being there.
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    Where is the remote? Where is the $%#$% remote!

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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 49,808
    edited July 2005
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    I said dumpster, not trash can. Why today I threw away a large piece of glass for a desk top, a cherry headboard, assorted pieces of useless wood and a pair of B&W P5's.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • phoneisbusy
    phoneisbusy Posts: 867
    edited July 2005
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    *damnit*damnit*damnit*
    I could have used the cherry headboard!

    Dave
    Time is the best teacher. Unfortunately it kills all its students.
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  • reeltrouble1
    reeltrouble1 Posts: 9,312
    edited July 2005
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    Originally posted by hoosier21
    Live is the best you will ever hear.

    HiFi is a joke compared to being there.

    x2

    Once had the pleasure of seeing Zubin Meta make such a pure tone come from a violin my balls actually vibrated with the anticipation of the moment.

    RT1
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  • disneyjoe7
    disneyjoe7 Posts: 11,435
    edited July 2005
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    Originally posted by reeltrouble1


    my balls actually vibrated with the anticipation of the moment.

    RT1


    :eek: :cool: :D

    Speakers
    Carver Amazing Fronts
    CS400i Center
    RT800i's Rears
    Sub Paradigm Servo 15

    Electronics
    Conrad Johnson PV-5 pre-amp
    Parasound Halo A23
    Pioneer 84TXSi AVR
    Pioneer 79Avi DVD
    Sony CX400 CD changer
    Panasonic 42-PX60U Plasma
    WMC Win7 32bit HD DVR


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  • Early B.
    Early B. Posts: 7,900
    edited July 2005
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    Originally posted by DarqueKnight
    Todays digital recording techniques can capture the wide dynamic range of hot drum tracks. Unfortunately many, if not most, recording engineers still use techniques more suited for analog recording.

    I don't think it is Hi Fi that sucks as much as the sorry and incompetant recording techniques used today.

    The Chesky Audiophile Test Disc Vol. 3 demonstrates what DK is saying. It's amazing how sound can be manipulated today to sound as good, and often better IMO, than live listening (if done properly, of course).
    HT/2-channel Rig: Sony 50” LCD TV; Toshiba HD-A2 DVD player; Emotiva LMC-1 pre/pro; Rogue Audio M-120 monoblocks (modded); Placette RVC; Emotiva LPA-1 amp; Bada HD-22 tube CDP (modded); VMPS Tower II SE (fronts); DIY Clearwave Dynamic 4CC (center); Wharfedale Opus Tri-Surrounds (rear); and VMPS 215 sub

    "God grooves with tubes."
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  • Cyclesberuff
    Cyclesberuff Posts: 37
    edited July 2005
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    wow I saw junior brown live at rams head tavern in annapolis and no cd even comes close. Plus what a nice guy! Venue and stage equipment are essential to live music.nissan pavillion has nice acoustics as well, I think they used thier lawn section to reflect surround sound. anyway quality music sounds good always
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  • halo
    halo Posts: 5,616
    edited July 2005
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    A neighbor of mine had a musical group playing at a party a few days ago. The group was all acoustic - no electronic amplification. After I left I heard the flute playing from my back yard and the sound was amazing. I couldn't tell where it was coming from - it was everywhere. I listened to a bit of music on my stereo after that and found it LACKING. I've seen plenty of concerts and IMO nothing beats a live performance.
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  • organ
    organ Posts: 4,969
    edited July 2005
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    After attending my first concert back in 2001, I made it my quest to duplicate that live sound and feeling. Today, I'm very satisfied with what I have and I'm surprised how similar my system sounds to the live shows I attend. The things I look for are the raw energy, dynamics and big soundstaging. This gives me that live feeling and makes music sound exciting. But my system sounds like half hifi and half PA so I'm sure most people wouldn't enjoy it as much as I would.

    I've never experienced a live acoustic performance. I played in the orchestra back in middle school but was never part of the audience. So I'm talking about sound coming out of good PA systems.

    Maurice
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