i have new found respect for toyota

disneyjoe7

Originally posted by MacLeod
American cars sucked **** thru the 80's and into the 90's but finally started to get their act together.

Today I believe all the major names make very high quality vehicles.

Not sure about that but finally started to get their act together I traded in a Chevy Monte 2002 model due to the fact I didn't believe it could see 50k without major trouble. When a manufacture will make first poorly glued rearview mirror would shack if in the car was parked for the day. Can't make a window regulator live more then 2 years. The power window switch then dies. The steering shift needed to be replaced not lubed from factory the same was with the brake caliber pins not lubed from factory. Then I just by causality I check the antifreeze to find that it was like 6 inch low. But to my amazement they know all about this intake manifold gasket that has been leaking for 3 or 4 years on this in varies models. So instead of fixing problem they moved the low coolant sensor lower in the radiator so the consumer would not see the light until you blow up motor, and they would add radiator sealer to the coolant at factory so this my pass the warranty period before the problem show's its ugly face. All in all just another way for them to make $$ and screw the consumer. Let’s not fix a problem but cover it up that’s GM way.

I could go on but I just know too much about cars, so the whole thing can gets me going. I had older models to with major troubles so for another day.

ND13

Originally posted by MacLeod
Personally I think, especially in trucks, that all are made well.

Ive had 2 Dodge Rams now and both have given me zero problems.

American cars sucked **** thru the 80's and into the 90's but finally started to get their act together.

Today I believe all the major names make very high quality vehicles.

Mac,

I'm a Dodge dealer and have been selling Dodges since '94. Before that I was a diehard Ford man, still would buy a Ford over any GM, but all in all, if you take care of an american car the way the foriegn manufacturers require, they'll last just as long. Back in the late 70's and 80's the asian products were heads and shoulders above the domestics. But the gap has closed if there is a gap anymore.

disneyjoe7

Originally posted by ND13
but all in all, if you take care of an american car the way the foriegn manufacturers require, they'll last just as long.

Are you telling me a GM power window regulator requires maintenance? BullSh!t. My wife drove this car needed to work window once a day for a work ID gate badge it died after 1000 uses or so, maintenance right. OK then a poor design gasket or mating surface in an engine 3.4L? Requires MAINTENCE / BullSh!t. No just redesign the low water sensor (so the consumer returns car under warranty less) then throw in some radiator sealer for good measure.

American cars manufactures sell you a car that is designed to fail, so they can sell you the part also. Japanese manufactures sell you a car that is designed to show your neighbor it’s still running so they sell them a car. American car manufactures best wake up.

Give me a break.

aaharvel

"The reason I said that is because GM owns over 40% of Toyota..."

lol- there's also a rumor going around the internet that Ford owns Toyota. Whatever.

The "Toyota Cavalier" is a joint venture between the two companies for Chevy to be able to move product in European countries such as New Zealand- where it would be impossible to do with just the Chevy name. As in America, Chevy borrowed heavily from the Corolla in hopes of moving entry-level products here without being linked to "Chevy" and "Cavalier" to more astute buyers- this is how the now defunct "GEO" name came to be.

GM has ownership in Volvo, Saab, Saturn, Hummer, Daewoo, and Lotus. THey have had business relations with Toyota before with the Corolla/Prizm, Vibe/Matrix and future hybrid vehicles- and all of these cars used the superior Toyota engine and other Toyota parts as a result. All of them. Why? Because Toyota technology sells. Chevy carryovers (such as the now 16 year old 3.8 ltr. pontiac engines, do not.) You go into a Chevy dealership and look at the Pontiac Vibe- the first thing a salesman will tell you is that it's really a Toyota with a Toyota engine. Everytime.

I'm sorry- but an overstretched, over extended, and nonprofitable car company such as GM does not obtain 40% ownership of arguably the most profitable and fastest growing car company (now the #2 largest) in the world as of today, especially when they have to give away thousands upon thousands in factory and dealer incentives just to move product. That's not how business works. That's like saying Sears, in their present state- is buying up 40% of Lowes Companies- a company i might add that effectively doubles in size every 6 years. It ain't gonna happen, with all due respect to what your Father says or thinks.

ND13

Originally posted by disneyjoe7
Are you telling me a GM power window regulator requires maintenance? BullSh!t. My wife drove this car needed to work window once a day for a work ID gate badge it died after 1000 uses or so, maintenance right. OK then a poor design gasket or mating surface in an engine 3.4L? Requires MAINTENCE / BullSh!t. No just redesign the low water sensor (so the consumer returns car under warranty less) then throw in some radiator sealer for good measure.

American cars manufactures sell you a car that is designed to fail, so they can sell you the part also. Japanese manufactures sell you a car that is designed to show your neighbor it’s still running so they sell them a car. American car manufactures best wake up.

Give me a break.

Damn dude what's all the hostility about, if you noticed I basically said GM sucks. I deal with used GM's every EFFING day, and I will agree. But I have never had any of the issues you have had, with your PIECE OF CHEVY, with any of the Jeeps, Dodges, Chryslers, or Fords I have owned over the last 23 years.
I love my Datsun 280ZX's I own, also. I've owned several Z cars over the years and still have 2 now. GM has major issues at hand and are losing market share by the truckloads every quarter, while Daimler/Chrysler is gaining. Why does someone elses opinion bother you so much anyway. I wasn't trying to sell you a car, and from what I've seen here, it wouldn't be worth it if I was. I try not to let other people's opinion get my panties in a wad. Lay off the caffeine man..... really!!!!

Ricardo

Originally posted by aaharvel
"The "Toyota Cavalier" is a joint venture between the two companies for Chevy to be able to move product in European countries such as New Zealand-

Jstas

Originally posted by aaharvel

GM has ownership in Volvo, Saab, Saturn, Hummer, Daewoo, and Lotus.


You go into a Chevy dealership and look at the Pontiac Vibe- the first thing a salesman will tell you is that it's really a Toyota with a Toyota engine. Everytime.

GM does not own Volvo, Ford does. Don't believe me? Check out http://www.ford.com and tell me what manufacturers you see listed. I'm pretty sure that Saab is still Saab with joint ventures with GM. GM might own a portion but if anything it was due to a debt bailout for Saab that GM funded and finances. Hummer is owned by AMGeneral. If I remember correctly, AMGeneral still retains the controlling portion of ownership.

I also walked into a couple of GM dealers when helping a friend look at a new car for herself. She went to 3 different GM dealers. All sold Pontiacs but each one sold a different GM brand that she was interested in. Not a single salesman mentioned that the Vibe was a Toyota. Not until I said something about it. I think it's pretty neat though that you are able to walk into a Chevy dealer and buy a Pontiac but no one else I know can. You can't do that here. Infact, there is a massive GM complex down in Tunersville, NJ where they sell pretty much all GM products and the lot is segmented into each marque through requirements by GM.




As far as who makes a better product, you can go by personal opinion all you want. That's fine but what every person seems to miss is the idea of economies of scale. To really understand the numbers presented in things like J.D. Power & Assoc. surveys, you need to see regional info, how the demographics were defined, what the sampling size was and how the size compares to the actual population of not only the demographic area but the overal population of vehicles. Keep in mind that there are many places throughout the country where the density of one car vs. another is highly skewed. This affects survey results. There is so much more to it than just singular experiences.

Also, if you want to see this information behind these surveys, you can contact the company that did the survey and if requested, they will furnish the complete survey info. Infact, I do believe that they have to by law. I may be incorrect on that but they usually do give out the info readily.

ND13

Good job John. I've been in the car business for 14yrs. One can skew stats in any direction they want to. It all comes down to personal preference and taste. If it wasn't, then it would be like Germany under Hitler, everybody drives a BUG. The county I live in(Henry,IN) at one time had 67% of the registered vehicles as Chrysler products. What a market share!!!!

I've sold several makes, domestic, european, and asian, and they all have their weak and strong points. You have to weigh all the info and make the best decision that works for you.

PhantomOG

Originally posted by Jstas
...There is so much more to it than just singular experiences.

So its impossible or nearly impossible to get unbiased data. Data that is not biased is the fact that Japanese carmakers like Toyota are gaining marketshare and American carmakers are losing it. This is still happening today.

Sure, you can blame some of this to what you believe is an undeserved reputation, but the fact remains that Toyota is doing something right that the American carmakers are not doing.

Whether or not this anti-American reliability reputation is deserved or not ( I think it is ), the American carmakers are doing NOTHING to fight this. Offering a lower price on a car that everyone thinks is junk isn't going to help sell that junk.

brettw22

Agreed......and if it weren't for Chrysler's 300, I wouldn't look at buying anything American made again.......

AsSiMiLaTeD

Originally posted by Jstas
As far as who makes a better product, you can go by personal opinion all you want. That's fine but what every person seems to miss is the idea of economies of scale. To really understand the numbers presented in things like J.D. Power & Assoc. surveys, you need to see regional info, how the demographics were defined, what the sampling size was and how the size compares to the actual population of not only the demographic area but the overal population of vehicles. Keep in mind that there are many places throughout the country where the density of one car vs. another is highly skewed. This affects survey results. There is so much more to it than just singular experiences.

Also, if you want to see this information behind these surveys, you can contact the company that did the survey and if requested, they will furnish the complete survey info. Infact, I do believe that they have to by law. I may be incorrect on that but they usually do give out the info readily.

I don't know about all that...too difficult for someone just wanting a good car. Let's see if you can help me out here.

I want to know what percentage of all GM vehicles made end up in the shop for repairs that are not regular maintenance. In other words, I wanna know how many defective cars they have. And, to be fair, I want to know this as a percentage of their total cars produced - I don't care where they're sold.

Looking at the number as a percentage rules out all that economies of scale stuff. x percentage of the cars you make are defective...I want to know the x. If I know that, then it doesn't matter if you make ten cars or ten million, because I have x chance of getting a bad car.

And I want that same information for Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Ford, Dodge, and any other car I happen to be looking at. Oh, and if I can get that info geographically, I'd really like that as well. And of course we'll want this data compiled by a third party company.

Once I've driven several cars and find the one I like for performance and style, I'll take a look at the lists requested above and buy the one with the lowest defect rate - it really is that simple.

When I was looking at vehicles a while back, I asked four different Dodge dealers if they could give me stats for defective rates on jeep Grand Cherokee I was about to buy - they all said that was impossible because that is not released publically. Where they lying to me? Well, probably, but that's just it - that data is not easy to obtain. Well I bought the jeep anyway, and only had it for a year before it started having issues, at a little over a year, the tranny went out...

So again, personal experience (not opinion) is all I have to go on because I can't find anything else. If there's a good website or book I can buy that tells me what I want, please share it with me.

AsSiMiLaTeD

Originally posted by brettw22
Agreed......and if it weren't for Chrysler's 300, I wouldn't look at buying anything American made again.......

I LOVE the 300, one of my favorite looking cars. My friend has had one for about a year now, and it's been in the shop for about a month in total...not too bad I guess...

disneyjoe7

Originally posted by Polkmaniac
I LOVE the 300, one of my favorite looking cars. My friend has had one for about a year now, and it's been in the shop for about a month in total...not too bad I guess...

11 over 12 months 11/12 vs. 12/12 = .9166 ................. OK 92% not to bad Grade A- passing grade.

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For the first year sorry to hear that, yes everyone needs to go to the dealer for 8% of your life.

disneyjoe7

Originally posted by ND13
Damn dude what's all the hostility about, if you noticed I basically said GM sucks. I deal with used GM's every EFFING day, and I will agree. Lay off the caffeine man..... really!!!!

Ok, Dude I try to lay off the caffeine for you.

venomclan

I just bought a Honda, it was built in Ohio by Americans and has 70% american parts, 20% Japanese, 10% other.

IMHO, I will never own any car other than Honda/Acura, Toyota/Lexus/Scion. From personal experience, these are repeatedly the best.

My father-in-law is a GM of a Dodge dealer. He does not own a car, he takes home a new demo every other week. Last year he was driving a Durango home as a demo. 2 blocks past the dealership its tranny fell out.

A friend of mine bought a new Ram, at 1400 miles, its tranny dropped.

My fiance's Cherokee, with 21K and very maintained, its A/C completly blew out along with its brakes 3 times.

My Mazda 626 (Ford) Tranny went at 72K. My Buick tranny went at 117K.

My mothers Pontiac tranny went at 60K.

My first Honda, alternator went bad after 17 years.
My mother's Toyota, not 1 problem in 9 years.

My uncles $35K Tahoe, too many problems to list. Tranny gone at 60K.

The big 3 American makers better realize that the Koreans quality, Hyundai has now passed them by and snapping up market share.

Right now, only Chrysler is showing signes of life, but it is only because of the 300. It is a fad. Their quality is still sub par, especially being in bed with Mercedes. Mercedes is successful through great Branding/Marketing, their quality is terrible, with exception of some of their older diesel models.

aaharvel

Jstas- you raise some interesting points on the JD Power & Associates issue that i failed to look at. Very interesting.

GM does have priority ownership in both Saab and Hummer.
http://www.gmbuypower.com/homePage.bp;jsessionid=CgLh260sQWHGo4xORPQqftvIxt11GMo01Y5rDPN7kNuf83nxTdSp!2000776362!168679632!7146!7002?&shoppingPage=shopByBrand

And i'm curious as to where those GM dealerships you mentioned are located at. Here IN NC, as well as surrounding states- every GM dealer i've ever seen (both large and small) sell chevys, gm, caddys, and pontiacs. All on the same lot.

Two of my friends work for the Premier Chevy dealership in Wilkesboro, NC- and BOTH have stated that in their training sessions for the VIBE that they should mention that it is a Toyota without the Toyota price. Makes sense to me- considering Toyota is outselling GM like mad as far as cars go- especially since GM even has a higher number of cars than does Toyota.

I'm not dealing any personal opinions toward Toyota- My favorites have always been Honda/Acura and Audi. And just to clear the air- GM does not own 40% of Toyota, if anything.

(EDIT) - you're right-on about Ford/Volvo. I meant to put volvo with mazda under ford. F'd that one up.

brettw22

Originally posted by Polkmaniac
I LOVE the 300, one of my favorite looking cars. My friend has had one for about a year now, and it's been in the shop for about a month in total...not too bad I guess...

What's been the problems that he's had, and does he have the Hemi or Touring/Limited model?

AsSiMiLaTeD

Originally posted by brettw22
What's been the problems that he's had, and does he have the Hemi or Touring/Limited model?

The only major problem was something with the transmission. I don't know exactly what, but it took them over a week to get it fixed...but it was major enough that he had to have the car towed to them because it would not drive...

The other things have been less major...his trunk wouldn't close, a plastic piece in the back seat somewhere came loose and rattled pretty bad, one of the arm rests on the door panel came loose...nothing major, just a few minor issues...

He didn't have a Hemi in his, but it was the more expensive version, the limited I guess...

brettw22

That's the one that I'm looking to get....The limited has basically all the same options as the Hemi, without the engine.

I've driven both the the Hemi and Touring (same engine as the Limited) as rentals for a week, and as much as I do like driving it, it's more power than I need (the Limited engine is by no means a slouch though if I remember corectly).

PhantomOG

Originally posted by Polkmaniac
The only major problem was something with the transmission. I don't know exactly what, but it took them over a week to get it fixed...but it was major enough that he had to have the car towed to them because it would not drive...

The other things have been less major...his trunk wouldn't close, a plastic piece in the back seat somewhere came loose and rattled pretty bad, one of the arm rests on the door panel came loose...nothing major, just a few minor issues...

He didn't have a Hemi in his, but it was the more expensive version, the limited I guess...

if all that stuff happened within the first year of my owning a new vehicle I'd be pissed. the transmission is the only major thing but all those little things point to very poor design/quality control and i'd expect to see alot more issues in the future because of it.

brettw22

Out of the 3 or 4 that I've driven as rentals, the cars seem incredibly well built. The only gripes I have are no handle for the trunk and it doesn't auto open (would suck if you had your hands full), and the auto temp control is a dial setting instead of digital (preference thing).

The absolute silence that is the interior of that car is nothing short of amazing. I can whisper......no......less than wisper, and hear myself quite loudly on both concrete and asphalt roads(i don't typically talk to myself.....just was curious how softly I could speak/whisper and still hear myself). My current car I have to talk pretty loud on the phone because of all the road noise.

MSALLA

I have had all kinds o f different makes of cars. I have bought them new, restored old ones and raced others.
Out of the new cars, NONE were truble free. No matter the brand, make or price range. I like the american cars more but I will admitt that you get a nicer interior for the money with the asian models.
Next we are going with a european car. Looking at the BMW 5 series.
I do think the american trucks are better for heavy work then the asian ones. With our work trucks Chevy and ford seem to last the longest.

The fact of the matter is you guys can argue this subject all you want, People have their opinions on cars and are loyal to their brands to a fault. You would think they had stock in the companies.

AsSiMiLaTeD

Originally posted by MSALLA
People have their opinions on cars and are loyal to their brands to a fault. You would think they had stock in the companies.

I'd say the opposite is true of me. I was always a Chevy fan, got two bad cars from them and I'll never buy again.

If have no loyalty to a car company, I'm going to buy the best vehicle I can at the time. If I start having troubles with the Toyota, I'll go find someone else to buy from. If in 5 years they start making crappy cars and pinto resurfaces and starts making the best vehicles, I'll go buy a Pinto (provided I like it).

Car loyalty may have worked for my dad and his dad, that doesn't work for me today because there's too much change to stick with one company forever...

wodom1

I've never had any problems with American Trucks. My dad used to have a 1987 Chevy Suburban. By the time my mom killed it in a wreck, it had over 300, 000 miles on it and never had any problems at all other than typical wear and tear such as brakes. After that I had a 1996 Ford F-150 with the 4.9L I6 and drove it for 120, 000 worry-free miles. Now my dad has the F-150 and I've got a 2002 Dodge Durango with 63, 000 miles and not a problem yet. 35, 000 of those miles have been put on in the last 12 months. Unless something drastic happens, I'll always be an American truck buyer. I really want to buy a brand spankin' new F150, 4-door, 4x4 Lariat but parking it is next to impossible in my current neighborhood, so I'll have to wait until I buy a parking spot or have a garage.

aaharvel

I saw the FORD 500 up close and personal last night. Lexus (LS430) should sue. They'd win.

brettw22

Originally posted by aaharvel
I saw the FORD 500 up close and personal last night. Lexus (LS430) should sue. They'd win.

PLEASEEEEEEE.....the day that Lexus gets threatened by a Ford would be the day that Lexus should start folding up shop........

Jstas

Originally posted by brettw22
PLEASEEEEEEE.....the day that Lexus gets threatened by a Ford would be the day that Lexus should start folding up shop........

He's talking about the design of the current Lexus being similar to the Ford 500. However, the design of the 500 has been being shown in car shows to guage consumer reaction since around 2001-2002 and the Lexus design didn't show up until 2003.

Besdies, for any company to sue another over design, the "facts" are so intangible that the bodystyle would be out of production before the court case could even be heard.

aaharvel

Thanks Jstas- i WAS referring to the design- the 500 does look like a knockoff of the 430.

"However, the design of the 500 has been being shown in car shows to guage consumer reaction since around 2001-2002 and the Lexus design didn't show up until 2003. "

wow. i didn't know that. I don't about you- but i still think the 95-98 LS400's still look better, except for the doorhandles. My aunt's got a 96 cherry red sc300- and that is still imo the best looking car lexus has made- although the new gs is pretty damn sweet as well.

venomclan

Originally posted by brettw22
PLEASEEEEEEE.....the day that Lexus gets threatened by a Ford would be the day that Lexus should start folding up shop........

I agree completly. That is like Ferrari being threatened by a skateboard company.

aaharvel

"PLEASEEEEEEE.....the day that Lexus gets threatened by a Ford would be the day that Lexus should start folding up shop........"


i think you guys misunderstood what i was trying to say. Anyway it doesn't matter.