Klipsch RF-7 vs. Vienna Acoustics Mozart vs. Sonus Faber Concerto

Aaron

It being a rain day and with nothing better to do, I decided to go listen to some speakers. Thanks to all the buzz on the forum I had to check out the $2200 Klipsch RF-7's. They were first up. First let me say these things are freakin' huge! While the placement of the speakers was pretty good, the equipment they hooked to them wasn't the best. They were being powered by an upper model Kenwood receiver (had the fancy and bulking touch screen remote) and a decent DVD player. They image surprisingly well, and their detail was also surprisingly good. The bass they produce is strong and reasonably tight. Still, they didn't sound right. They don't sound like any other speaker, most likely thanks to that horn. After listening for a bit I put my finger on what didn't sound right: they sound hallow. This was the same feeling I got when I listened to their speakers a few years ago. They are also bright. One of my test CD's has a piano solo that gets up pretty high and is fairly "bright" in its recording, but the Klipsch's really emphasized it. Ouch!

Next up was the $2500 Vienna Acoustics Mozart speakers. I've listened to these once before and wasn't impressed. I'm still not impressed. On this audition they seemed to produce a lot more bass. This is possibly due to the fact that the bottoms were filled with sand (they weren't in my othe audition). Still, I wasn't impressed with their detail or imaging, especially for the price. I prefer their sound over the Klipsch's, but they didn't image as well, have as much detail, or have anywhere near the bass authority.

Last up was my beloved $1900 Sonus Faber Concerto bookshelf speakers. So beautiful looking, and a joy to listen to. They were clearly the superior speaker in every respect except for bass quantity and depth (come on, it's a bookshelf!). I saw Tweeter had a 15 month no payments, no interest deal and damn near bought the pair. Thankfully I didn't. Read my other thread on the Revel speakers.

Aaron

juice21

i've seen the sonus' in tweeter before, and they are beautiful. i haven't gotten a chance to give them a serious listen though yet. i need a free saturday morning...:D

TroyD

Funny you should mention that hollow sound. That is exactly what I thought about the KG4's and I have always attributed it to (incorrectly maybe) to cabinet resonance problems. The particular passages that I though brought out most was Elvis's "Kentucky Rain" piano lead in to the chorus. I swear it is like you can hear the cabinet vibrate. I think that the horn also gives the vocals are more forward sound that has been praised by some Klipsch devotees. Again, it just doesn't sound natural to me.

Troy

Aaron

I guess I should also mention that I listened to the VA's and SF's on a average-priced B&K separates system using a Sony ES CD player.

Aaron

Aaron

Juice:
You definitely should take the time to listen to them. They do sound nice.

Troy:
It's like the Klipsch's aren't cohesive. They just don't blend together properly or something. "Hallow" seems to be the best description of what I heard.

Aaron

RuSsMaN

I blame most of what you were hearing on the receiver/dvd player combo. I haven't heard this particular model, and I don't own any horn speakers, some piezo's, but no horns.

Let me say this, a good cd player/transport/dac and tube amp/pre with a nice, big pair of LaScala's or Klipshorns is a life-changing experience. They truely sound 'live'. Klipsch uses folded bass horns, large passive radiators, exponential horns....these designs are widely used in pro audio.

I do think Klipsch sound different, but I also believe proper setup is needed. They are not forgiving in any way, with mediocre at best gear. (or a small room) At least with the older, larger Klipsch, I feel like they really need a 'big' room, space to breathe. In my limited experience, with 'conventional' designs I notice a small difference in sound form tubes to solid state, Klipsch going from solid state to tubes is more than noticeable.

Cheesy gear, or low end Klipsch...or a combination of the two....I agree, hard to take, very forward.

Cheers,
Russ

Aaron

Sure, the gear wasn't the best, but the speakers wouldn't sound that wrong. The hallowness of their sound was very noticable. I find it hard to believe that a $1000+ receiver couldn't drive them adequately. These weren't inexpensive Klipsch speakers, they were the top model in the Reference line ($2200). The room they were in was also quite large. While I'm sure better gear, be is solid state or tube, would improve their sound, I still don't think they'd sound right (to me).

Aaron

mantis

I've been around Klipsch all my life(as well as Polk)and Klipsch over the years always did one thing...left.........................right and thats it.They DO NOT IMAGE AT ALL.No matter what gear you run with them.I heard Adcam,B&K,Krell,Proceed,Pioneer Elite,Yamaha,Denon,Sony ES seperates and receiver's,Kenwood soverien(which is what was at Tweeter).You have to really like Hard rock at 90db and louder the really hear what the speaker can do.They are not easy listening,soft mellow or anything else on those lines,flat out rock speaker's, and why not if that 's what you like then cool,I will stick with my Polk's and thats that.
Dan

joe logston

the klipsck rf-7 i listen to last saterday sounded a lot diffrant from the older klipsck. they where set up right in a real nice theater sound sound room , on a pioneer vsx-49tx receiver and a pioneer dv-47a multi-player, maybe any speaker would sound good with all that good stuff. but it did image in the center good it had sound stage that was not deep but it had one, the dynamics was the best thing they had. it barely had the tunnle sound. but if i could take a set of lsi-9 polks down there and compare i thank the polk would sound better, my oppining

Aaron

but it did image in the center good

I particularly observed this when I listened to them.

Aaron

joe logston

Originally posted by RuSsMaN
I blame most of what you were hearing on the receiver/dvd player combo. I haven't heard this particular model, and I don't own any horn speakers, some piezo's, but no horns.

Let me say this, a good cd player/transport/dac and tube amp/pre with a nice, big pair of LaScala's or Klipshorns is a life-changing experience. They truely sound 'live'. Klipsch uses folded bass horns, large passive radiators, exponential horns....these designs are widely used in pro audio.

I do think Klipsch sound different, but I also believe proper setup is needed. They are not forgiving in any way, with mediocre at best gear. (or a small room) At least with the older, larger Klipsch, I feel like they really need a 'big' room, space to breathe. In my limited experience, with 'conventional' designs I notice a small difference in sound form tubes to solid state, Klipsch going from solid state to tubes is more than noticeable.

Cheesy gear, or low end Klipsch...or a combination of the two....I agree, hard to take, very forward.

Cheers,
Russ

joe logston

russ you are right about the klipsch about needing a big room and good electronics, and set up right. i know that the pioneer vsx-49tx must be a good piece it made the klipsck sound awful good in 2 channel but it had a kinda flat sound stage, but it was 3 dimenial.

gidrah

Aaron, great post.

About 20 yrs. ago (12 yrs old) I heard Klipschorns hooked up to a Revox system. It made the hair on the back of my neck stand-up. Unfortunately I haven't had the opportunity since.

dean/klipschead

I'm actually not into the exponential horn sound myself -- it's like fingernails going across a chalkboard.

I don't understand this 'hollow' thing though. I sure don't hear it on the RF7's.

zandern

First of all, you people are stupid. There is no hollow sound at all about Klipsch. Second the reason why Klipsch sound painfull to you is because they are a more efficient speaker. When comparison testing you must turn the other speakers up or the Klipsch down because of their efficiency. So you are actually listening at a higher level, thats why so many people think Klipsch are painful, when really any speaker is at a louder volume. Finally, the Klipsch can hit any piano sound, cymbol crash, drum beat, or horn blar than any other speaker. All thanks to the horn.

Aaron

Hahahah. Whatever you say dude. :rolleyes:

Aaron

DarqueKnight

First of all, you people are stupid. ~~zandern

At the risk of raising the general level of stupidity around here, I must chime in on the side of the Klipsch horn sound. My fraternity owned a pair (no idea which model-but they were big) and they were top performers.

I'm telling you, there's simply no speaker better suited for cutting through an alcohol induced stupor than Klipsch. After one of our patented "midnight-to-dawn" parties, we may not have remembered our names, but we could remember every song that came blaring over those speakers. In fact, I still remember every song from every party because that razor sharp horn tweeter has permanently etched the sound waves in my brain the way that a cutting lathe cuts grooves in a phonograph record.

While we are on the subject of alcohol, I think that the police should make suspected drunk drivers pronounce "Klipsch" five times in rapid succession as a sobriety test. Those who speak with a natural lisp would be excused from this test.;)

dean/klipschead

Did you know that 'dude' is an infected hair on an elephant's ****?

I have no idea what this 'hollow' sound is you guys keep talking about. If anything -- you are hearing the natural ambiance of the music in the recording. This is something a direct radiating loudspeaker cannot do -- at least, not without ridiculous SPL's that typically cause the drivers to heat, and burn up.

Think of it like this: If you are in the water and you want to pump some water out -- pushing the water up with a piston has very little effect. However, if you enclose the piston -- you can now do some meaningful work. This is exactly what a horn enclosure does when placed around a conventional driver.

The net effect of this is that sounds that were previously buried behind the top layers of the loudest instruments -- are now pushed up so you can hear them. There is simply 'more' of everything there. Horn owners discover real quick that to get 'realistic' sound -- it is not necessary to push the speakers to higher SPL's to get that sensation of 'all there'. What Zander was trying to say -- is that most people, when they audition horns -- are listening at levels much higher than they are used to. They sound in your face because they are!

When I upgraded to the RF7, my friend Mark bought my RC7's. We were watching the Abyss. In the opening sequences where the sub bottoms out, there is the metallic sound of the sub making contact with the sound of the cliff, and the rocks break loose and begin to tumble. These sounds are rendered with complete realism and impact. Mark -- an avid DQ10 listener, noticed immediately and proceeded to hook his DQ10's back up.

We played the same sequence over again. It was completely laughable. I mean, it sounded good -- but the tumbling rocks and accompanying sounds were far back in the distance of the presentation. It just wasn't even in the same ballpark.

When you go down the street and walk by a house and hear music -- what is it about the music that tells you whether it's live or someone's system? It is the dynamics of the sound that renders the realism. It's what makes you say - "that's a band".

I also object to the comments indicating there is no real soundstage. Since the directivity of the highs is controlled by the horn -- they can be spead out. Way out. If any of you ever pass through Dayton, Ohio -- stop in so you can tell me about my lack of soundstage. It is wall to wall. There is no image drift, and with a decent tube amp the image becomes almost three dimensional.

I would also like to qualify that the new horns are tractrix not exponential. They also use metal domes instead of plastic. I think Klipsch has really advanced the state of the art with these new designs.

They are not 'hollow' sounding -- they are wide open and uncompressed, with loads of low level detail. It actually takes some getting used to. To say they sound 'hollow' would be like me saying Polks sound as if they have a blanket thrown over them. It's truer to say a Polk will sound softer and warmer.

The only thing a good direct radiating loudspeaker has over a horn is that it sounds 'different'. I'm looking at LSi9's to run with my Bryston so I can do near field listening in a small room. I wouldn't for a minute try to drive even an average size room with them.

It's apples and oranges -- and to try to get in a pissing contest over what sounds 'better' is a complete waste of time. This thing is totally subjective.

Aaron

It's apples and oranges -- and to try to get in a pissing contest over what sounds 'better' is a complete waste of time. This thing is totally subjective.

That's exactly right. They sound hallow, to me. I don't care for the sound. I thought they had good detail and good imaging, but I don't like the overall presentation. You know what they say in the food business? "Presentation is everything."

Aaron

shack

This thing is totally subjective

How can you objectively say that?

dean/klipschead

Aaron -- they don't sound hollow to you. You just think they sound hollow to you.

Shack -- LOL, that's very good. The answer would be that I can subjectively say I prefer the dynamics and uncompressed sound of the RF7 over the majority of direct radiating loudspeakers.

OTOH - I can also objectively say that horns are not the end all to good sound. That there are several other loudspeakers I could easily live with.

Hey, it's all ear candy.

matthew_2

Nice RF7's dean! (I like the cherry more!) I have yet to here a tube amp.

KLIPSCH ROCKS

mantis

there is no use debating the sound of a klipsch speaker with people who own them,there hearing is scared.

jad5

I have to side with Dean on this one. I have listened to the lsi series and the klipsch rb-5. Both sound very different but they both sound good in their own ways. Most of you must be referring to the old klipsches because the rb-5's sound anything but hollow. Very robust with good timbre. Not having done an extensive in home comparison I really can't state which I would prefer, the Klipsch or Polk. Just as the new Klipsch reference is the first klipsch that is any good, the same definetely holds true for the polk lsi series. However, I would not mate the Klipsch with cheap ss gear. I heard them at a dealer with a pioneer receiver and they were very abrasive. At home with Musical Fidelity gear they were smooth as silk with spectacular dynamics. Do not underestimate the deleterious effect of a poor source and amplification on a speaker.

Aaron

The Klipsch speakers I auditioned were the latest Reference RF-7 speakers (top of the line). As I stated in the thread, they were being driven by an upper model Kenwood receiver. While I believe the value of separates, I also believe that a pair of speakers should sound at least reasonable without them. I think you can get a pretty good idea of the character of a speaker with a reasonable quality receiver, especially with a highly efficient speaker like Klipsch. For instance, I demoed a pair of B&W Nautilus 805 speakers on a Sony ES receiver. Sacrilege as it may be, the B&W's still sounded very good.

What I find interesting is how someone can enjoy both Polk and Klipsch speakers. They sounded so very different to me that I'd think someone would lean one way or the other, not both. So what kind of speakers do you have? I'm a big MF fan; what components do you have?

Aaron

Striker1817

I have always been a big Klipsch fan. I feel that all of Klipsch's speakers have a full sound that no other speaker can touch. They have been using the same damn horn since the first klipsch speaker came out and have still been able to run with the big boys. PWK did it all and he did it all with a passion.
-chris

jad5

I have a musical fidelity x-a2 integrated. I am also using a Onkyo dvd player into a Dan Wright heavily modded di/o converter. The converter is very smooth and perhaps a bit on the soft side of neutral, especially compared with many digital components. I think many of us can appreciate and like diverse sounding systems. There just all a different set of virtues.

jad5

I have a musical fidelity x-a2 integrated. I am also using a Onkyo dvd player into a Dan Wright heavily modded di/o converter. The converter is very smooth and perhaps a bit on the soft side of neutral, especially compared with many digital components. I think many of us can appreciate and like diverse sounding systems. They just all have a different set of virtues.

dean/klipschead

hey jad -- you're repeating yourself