My LSi9's are here... first impressions.

CrazyHead

These are first impressions, not my actual review!

Howdy folks,

Yesterday I picked up my new set of LSi9 bookshelf speakers to potentially replace my venerable RT16 floorstanding speakers (1996 era, pre-Circuit City).

As some out there may know, I had been looking to replace my aging RT16's with something more revealing. I'd been impressed, thoroughly, by ProAc's loudspeakers but had been holding out for the LSi series.

Yesterday I found a local dealer that had the LSi line in stock. I gave a quick listen in their fairly poor listening room and decided to bring a set home to check out.

Picture: Big close-up of an LSi9 on its new stand.

I gave a couple of hours of listen to the new set of 9's, going through several discs worth of music to get a feel for them. Here's the equipment I used, for your info:

* MSB LinkDAC III
* JoLida 502A integrated tube amplifier
* IXOS Gamma 6003 speaker cable, bi-wired
* IXOS Aptimus Ixotica interconnects

The signal path optical from the disc transport to the MSB LinkDAC III, analog from it to the JoLida, out to the speakers. Very direct, IMO.

Here are my first impressions of this speaker. I plan on letting these guys break themselves in before I give a full review.

* Cleaner (more air between instruments and vocals), however I am not sure to what extent.
* Prodigious amounts of bass for bookshelf speakers at this price!
* Bass is tight, very controlled, and *fairly* even. Bass is not presented as one note! A bit of an emphasis on the sub-50hz region. Port design for movie soundtracks, perhaps? Not very distracting, but this *could* be entirely related to placement in my living room.
* Familiar Polk rubustness in sound.
* Beautiful cabinets! Absolutely lovely!
* Very well built...
* ... also very heavy!

I was expecting more clarity, honestly. They are more revealing than the RT16's, but initially it doesn't feel like much. I am going to break these in for a few more days, give them time to stretch their legs before I pass judgement on the bass and clarity issues. I am a realist, I know that speakers need time to break in.

My initial impressions are positive, but not quite as positive as I had hoped. Also keep in mind that I am very tough to please. I will post more when I am through with my testing and listening!


-crazyhead-

dean/klipschead

...well, they are bound to break out a little more after about 100 hours.

It's tough to get clarity and smoothness together. I really love the clarity of a good metal dome driver -- but don't believe they will give you the overall smoothness of fabric (as used in the LSi9).

Your initial impressions are good, and what I believe is that as the next week goes by -- your will become more aware of the LSi9's ability to pull you into the music. Some of the best products out there are not the ones that bowl you over at first listen.

The design is very sound and just has to sound good.

It is possible that your Jolida is not the best possible match for the LSi9. As you probably already know -- tube amps do best with speakers that present an easy load. It's possible the LSi9 is choking off the Jolida.

A solid state amp would probably open up the top end but at the expense of the bloom tubes give to the soundstage.

joe logston

hi crazyhead do you have a transister amp that you can try i dont thank that a tube amp gose with that type of speaker you can tell me that im wrong but thats what i thank. tube amps have a singenger about them. they where good wend there was a lot of distortion in the frist cds that came out and it hid the lp nosie but now days with sacd and the better software & hardware, the transsister amps would be better pick for the modern designed speakers, there set up for digital high frequency, the tub amp is not going to give you all that information its just going to mudy it. unless you realy like the tube sound you are not going to get all of the air thats in the high tremble. thats the same thing in a cheap transister amp to. but you should try it and see. if you can get a good transisteramp some where.

dean/klipschead

Joe,

It's really not true what you say -- if the Jolida is a poor match it would only be because the LSi9 is presenting a difficult load due to rapid and vast impedance fluctuations. It is doubtful though.

Tube amps when run within their operational parameters actually have less objectionable distortion than transistorized amps. There is more even ordered distortion overall -- but the human ear does'nt tell you to cringe when you hear it. Solid state sounds very hashy compared to tubes.

I own a very nice Bryston 3B-ST. It's sitting in my rack for the most part unused. Instead, I'm using an AE-25 15 wpc triode amp and it smokes the Bryston in all things important.

Tube amps push the soundstage away from the front baffle of the speakers and the midrange is much more realistic sounding.

http://www.vtl.com/pages/whytubes.html

http://www.onhifi.com/product/ae25_superamp.htm

mantis

In general tub amps are warmer then mosfet amps.Not always true but most of the time.Trying different amps an the lsi series is a good thing,not a bad thing.I have demo'd the LSi 15 on a Yamaha rxv1 and they sounded pretty good.I own rt1000p's and I would like to get into the Lsi series.But after Demo the LSi15 vs the rt1000i's,I was let down.Both speaker's where on the floor with many hours so I didn't think break in time was a big factor.The Yamaha I believe was,I want to go back to the store,bring my B&K amp and demo them on it.I love the way my rt1000p's sound on it as well as it sounds great with my Denon avr3801(better on the B&K).
I also want to here the LSi's with a Pioneer Elite vsx49tx,B&Kavr307 and a Denon avr5803 as one of them will find a home in my rack in the near future.
I'm not sure how a tube amp would sound on the LSi but we have a used Bob Carver Sunfire 300wx2 at the shop I think I will bring on my next demo.
Dan

madmax

Crazyhead,
Thanks for the initial impressions. I would be very interested to know what you think once they are broken in. They look pretty stunning!

Joe,
Not to start anything but have you ever listened to a decent quality stereo tube amp? I heard my first one about a month ago and none of my solid-state stuff can really stand up to it. It was a cheap one at that.
madmax

joe logston

i would use tub amps on electrostatic type speakers like martin logan to tame there highs, dynamic speakers use a good transister amp. it depends on the person some people dont like tub sound i guess im one of them. i thank that tub amps put all they have to the midrange where they dont need the power and most of the human hearing is in that range . sorry

dean/klipschead

C'mon joe - slow down on that keyboard!

I don't really get what your saying.

joe logston

once i was going to buy a conrad johson, but got a aragon 4004 mark to i spent weeks listing to the cj but as so as i heard the aragon the cj was out

madmax

Joe,
So does that mean you have listened to one? The one I have doesn't "tame" any highs or add any extra power to the midrange. It is quite the opposite. I am just wondering because all the things you say is what I used to think (from stuff I read) before I actually had a chance to hear one.
madmax

joe logston

i listen to a lot of them vtl, tir amp, hell i dont know all the names. i been to the ces 3 times i been to a lot of high end stores all over calif. and washington

joe logston

i herad a lot of speakers to from avaon to wilson watt puppys
i like the wilson watt pupys they are a great speaker but 20,000 dollers

madmax

Joe,
OK, Sounds like you have heard some. I just wondered because of my experiences. When I powered up my first one I couldn't believe what I was hearing. All the good, none of the bad but mostly better. When I thought back over my last 25 years of listening I realized this was the first tube setup that I had ever heard. I kinda felt mislead by the transistor men after my first listening session.
madmax

dean/klipschead

different tube amps have varying sonic signatures just like solid state amps do -- they don't all sound alike

whether a person likes one or not will to a large degree be determined by what speakers they are using

joe logston

hey dean i went to ultimate electrontics today and listen some more to the klipsch rf-7 listein pro lodgic 2 on the new pioneer vsx-49tx receiver & the pioneer dv-47a multi-player it was set up better in 2 channel though the pl2 they had the surounds way to high but you can tell if set up right it will be awesome they should hire me to set there suff up for them, then i went the the high in room i listen to the martin logans the new ones not sure the modal they where $3500 ea. it had the krell pre- pro and the krell 5 channel amp they had the same pioneer multi-player (dv-47a) i put my cds. on it and kick back for a hr and a 1/2. i spent more that in where the klipsch are i went though 4 cds there
the sound on the ml was kinda bright with the krells thats where you need a good tube amp but the clearity was awesome but look what it would cost. the system it the big theater where the klipsch rf-7 and all the matching speakers are from klipsch they needed to be set up better, in stereo they sounded to me as good as the martin logan the 15" sounded real tite i had to ajust a lot,on the tag it said $1699 2500 w

joe logston

im sorry about my selling i flunct out in jr. high school in english and selling i went surfing instead i ditch a lot of school i had a lot of fun im paying for it now

nascarmann

Wow, All I can say is if you like clean, clear music a low to mosderate levels tube amps are great. If you want to fill a large room with "large sound" you better have a "deep pocket book" with a tube amp. My ears are not close to what they were 25 years ago, so I can save 10K on my amps and be happy I can still here anything at all!

pensacola

>>"im sorry about my selling i flunct out in jr. high school in english ..."

No worry—we can read between the lines.;)
By the way—it's never too late to "go back to school". I'm into middle age and attended college for the first time in 2000. Much easier now than then—I wasn't ready for all that back when I was "college age" (I joined the Marines instead!?!). There are folks in my class much older than me, too.
Do what YOU want—that's the key.

madmax

Hi Nascarmann,
I bought my 100 watt stereo amp on ebay for under $400 but I hear what your saying! After a month with it I started thinking I need to replace a lot of my other amps with tubes but given the cost factor I bought three new books on building tube amps instead. One day I'll either end up building my own or wondering why I was messing around with 400 volts when I touched the wrong component.
madmax

dean/klipschead

that o.k. joe - i flunked out of math - but now I can do a budget so i can figure out where to get the cash to support this sick habit of mine:)

joe logston

i know that tube amps sound better wend the software is harsh but wend the software gets better and its getting better all the time then you will have perfect sound you are not going to get it with a tube amp the modern transister amp is real close to being perfect the harshness you hear is the soft ware or the speakers. the tube amp is like a fillter it fillters out the harshness whitch haves a lot of the music , so you loose some of it the music, and some of the problem is setup i bet that most of you dont have your system setup right and thats a fact

thanks

CrazyHead

Tube gear sounds better in every way, if you ask me. However, there are two sides to the tube preference... I feel I should clarify a bit.

In general, there are two types of tubes that are used for power amplification. Both of which have different signatures that identify them as what they are. These tubes are:

EL34/6CA7 (I believe the 6CA7 is the same) and the 6550/KT88.

The EL34 type tubes produce a very lush midrange, lighter bass, and slightly rolled off top end. This might be what Joe is thinking about. Many tubephiles prefer the EL34 sound because many tubephiles also listen to, primarily, acoustic recordings. The EL34's really shine in this area. They make vocals come alive with clarity and depth. Midrange gains a richness the likes of which are hard, if not impossible, to find in solid state equipment.

The 6550 type tubes are electrically similar but they produce a very neutral sound. The Svetlana 6550C is the most widely used power amplification tube used in audio gear today. It is neutral, smooth, and very, very detailed. The 6550 is a very clean sounding tube without any added emphasis. A 6550 based amp will produce sound similar to that of extremely high-end solid state gear without the harshness.

However, some people prefer the much heralded Ei KT90 (Ei is the Yugoslavian manufacturer of this tube) in their 6550 gear... the KT90 type 3 is a direct replacement for the 6550. The KT90 can take a beating, electrically, and adds more bass punch and upper end extension. I have not personally tried these, but I see a lot of posts about them on other forums.

I tend to stick with 6550 type tubes in my amp (the old JoLida 502A can take either EL34 type or 6550 type with a simple bias adjustment) due to their tonal neutrality. I will try some EL34 type tubes and post results.

For those that are curious, my JoLida is using Ei ECC83 as preamp tubes, Ei 12AT7's as phase splitters, and Svetlana 6550C's as power tubes.

Anyway, I really am surprised that anybody is recommending solid state equipment over tube. With 6550 based gear, the tonal differences are virtually nill. The only difference is that the tube gear accels in clarity, depth, and smoothness. Many people equate clairty with the etched sound of home theater receivers. This is not clarity! What you are hearing is high-end emphasis that is introduces as a result of a transistor-based amp. I listen to DVD's on my tube setup and the sound is simple spectacular. Better than any Pioneer Elite setup I've owned (yes, I've owned a Pioneer Elite receiver, a Marantz SR8000, and several Harman/Kardon units). Brightness does not equal clarity!

There are some good transistor amps out there. Sherbourne makes a great 5 channel amp that is suitable for music. Edge makes a great stereo amp (although it gets very hot). When you get into the prices that Denon and Pioneer want for their expensive gear, you might as well start getting seperates and have a real system that can grow with your tastes over time!

FYI: Antique Sound Labs makes 10 watt tube monoblocks for $99.00 each. This is a great way to become introduced to the tube sound for little money! Use the pre-outs on your receiver right into these amps and into your Polks!

For those that care, here's a pic of the JoLida 502A amplifier: Picture of JoLida 502A


-crazyhead-

dean/klipschead

Yep

CrazyHead

Originally posted by joe logston
the tube amp is like a fillter it fillters out the harshness whitch haves a lot of the music , so you loose some of it the music, and some of the problem is setup i bet that most of you dont have your system setup right and thats a fact

I am starting to wonder if you are trolling here...

Tube amps do not "filter" anything. It all has to do with the type of distortion that the two opposing technologies introduce. Solid state (transistor) amplifiers introduce third order harmonics into the signal. To the brain, this sound is disagreeable. Tube systems introduce second order harmic distortion, which the brain sees as very euphonic.

Turn a tube amplifier and a solid state amplifier up to the same volume level and the tube gear will be vastly less fatiguing to listen to because of this.

Again, valve amplifiers do not filter anything! The entire signal is passed and amplified. I don't know where you're getting the idea that tube gear filters the sound, that's just plain nonsense.


-crazyhead-

dean/klipschead

110 posts and still a Polkie Wannabe. Guess I will be a wannabe until I actually buy those LSi9's

dean/klipschead

Now calm down Crazyhead -- you're starting to sound like that loon Klipschead.

Besides -- everyone knows tubes filter the evil spirits out of the signal

CrazyHead

Originally posted by dean/klipschead
Yep

Yep to who? Hehe.


-crazyhead-

dean/klipschead

'yep' to you -- nice post. I would have written it myself but I'm near the end a 12 hour shift and I'm wiped.

joe logston

i said it is like a filter, i didnt say it was a filter, its not a filter its a distrotion what ever you want to call it. but its there. what can i say. some people like the tube sound. i cant say its bad , its not to some, it just sounds a little muddy to me, sorry

dean/klipschead

no apology necessary -- to each his own!

nascarmann

I have 2 pair of boxing gloves for sale. Let the bidding begin!